Buying a car from a dealer – an essay of despair

[garethj]

Everybody in the country is rich, the number of 11 and 12 plate cars on the road means that every man, woman and child must have 3 each. When buying a car like this I should imagine it’s pretty straightforward; choose the car, pick the colour and options, wait for delivery.

 

When we buy cars it’s ok because we’ve got a handle on reasonable expectations. It won’t be in a chrome and glass showroom, but you shouldn’t have to trudge more than 50 yards from a path to see it. It might have most of its wheels, perhaps an engine and you’ll pay less for it than a monthly payment would cost the good citizens above.

 

A couple of days ago I embarked on “the third wayâ€Â. Car bores in the pub, or probably on the internet these days, will tell you it’s that tricky middle ground where you pay almost the money from scenario A but get the car of scenario B. I’ve found that they’re right and it fucks me right off.

 

Mrs_GarethJ wants to replace the Volvo S80 so we got a fresh MoT on it and started looking for a replacement. We’re after a big saloon car because we need to put 3 kids in the back, 2 of them on booster seats. She doesn’t particularly want an MPV, a 4x4 doesn’t do much either so it’s a Mondeo size saloon car we’re after. After a bit of searching it seems that Jaguar S Types could work, they’re big enough, fairly reliable and it’s a Jaguar which is lovely. Years ago I had a V12 XJ-S which she thought was awesome. It would be a cut above the rest in the school mum carpark.

 

 

Budget is about £2500 - £3000 which would buy 8 Peugeot 205 diesels like mine. It’s not new car territory but it’s quite a lot of cash I think. This is actual money here, not payments per month which seem invisible to most. It should get a 2001 or 2002 petrol car with 80,000 miles. It’s quite difficult to find one of these for sale privately, all the ones I could track down within 50 miles were at dealerships.

 

Dealer 1

Rookie mistake here, I saw the car on Autotrader so just drove the 10 miles to see it. The dealership staff were trying to ignore the fact there was a customer on the premises and scurried away but eventually I found one hiding behind the office. I said I’d come to look at the Jaguar they’ve got on Autotrader but I couldn’t see it on the forecourt, she got on her mobile and started whispering into it then 2 blokes came into the office. I said it again and they all walked off, one came back a minute later and said the car was out today but would be available tomorrow. Of course that’s perfectly normal, a car not being there for several hours even though it had been advertised for a few days and photographed on the premises.

 

They also had a Skoda Superb on the forecourt so I asked to have a look at that. He proudly handed me the key fob and I walked over towards the car, clicking the button from far away, sometimes cars have 2 sensors for the key fob so I wanted to check the long distance one worked. Nothing had happened by the time I got up to the car and was madly pushing the button waving the keyfob over the windscreen to find the sensor. I handed the key back to the dealer and he opened the door using the key in the slot, there wasn’t the noise of central locking things moving and when he put the key in the ignition none of the warning lights came on. The paintwork around both bumpers and down one side was flat and one of the exterior door trims was held on with a woodscrew. Time to leave.

 

Dealer 2

Plenty of contact here – phone call to ask about the car, e-mail back from the dealer with MoT mileages so I said I’d come and see the car the following day. I also said I’d call that morning to check it hadn’t been sold before setting off because it’s a good hour and a half drive. Called them in the morning and it went to the answering machine so I left a message with my name, number and saying that I’d be leaving soon to see the S Type that we’d talked about yesterday.

 

I am such a cock-eyed optimist because obviously when I got there, the car had been sold. “We took a deposit on it this morning†was the best he could offer, but nothing about picking up my message.

 

Out of there and onto the websites again to see if anything else was around. One was close by so I called them up but they’d just taken a deposit on it, obviously there was a serial Jag buyer on the prowl that day. Another call to another dealer.

 

Dealer 3

A car with 80,000 miles, looked good in the photos so off I go following the friendly satnav which took me 20 miles in distance and 30 years back in time. I didn’t think there were any dealers on WWII bombsites any more, apparently there’s still at least one left. He hands me the key and I can see the printing has worn off, if this car has done 80,000 miles it’s been owned by someone with very abrasive fingerprints.

 

Check in the boot for damp but it’s all ok, inside for damage and it’s a bit worn and the car looks a bit tired but not too bad. Open the bonnet and see that 3 of the brake pipes from the ABS pump have been replaced, but made up by the apprentice in the dark and I think he was paid by the number of kinks put in. A few of the fasteners holding the sound deadening were missing and it generally looked a bit scruffy under there. Bonnet down again, stand back and look at the car from a distance, is that a dent in the roof? No, it’s two dents in the roof. That’ll be why the wheels are polished, the tyres are gleaming, the glass is clean but the roof is dusty. Much better for hiding dents.

 

Turn the key and the engine starts ok but the engine management light is on. I turn off the engine and give him back the key, telling him what I’ve found. “There’s nothing wrong with the engine, it runs great†but as I’m getting rid of the Volvo because of an engine management fault, I don’t want another. Time to leave.

 

Dealer 4

“Hello, I’m phoning about the Jaguar you’ve got advertised, can I come and see it?â€Â

“Yes sir, when would you like to come over?â€Â

“I’m not far away, so about 20 minutes?â€Â

“20 minutes.... (flurry of activity in the background).... yes, that’ll be fineâ€Â

 

This one’s £3k with 60,000 miles, it should be alright. I arrive and the car’s not there “He’s just gone to fill it with petrol, sir. I’m sure you’ll want to take it for a test drive†and 5 minutes later the car purrs onto the forecourt. Man gets out leaving the car running so I do the usual checks again. This one looks good, but there’s a cover missing from the centre console area and he hasn’t applied the electric handbrake for some reason. As I put my head inside I can smell that funny whiff of leaking antifreeze, if you’ve ever had a heater matrix leak you don’t forget that kind of smell. Perhaps I’m mistaken, there’s enough smell of leather cleaner and polish to cover most things, even the smell from the fag the dealer is smoking right behind me

 

As I look over the car some more I’m sure it’s leaking antifreeze. One more look inside and on the dashboard it says “gearbox fault†Time to leave, if I was more of the internet generation I’d say FFS and :rolleyes smilie: as I go.

 

I passed 2 other dealers driving home and called in on the off chance, and called in to British Car Auctions because I’ve never been to a real car auction before but they didn’t have anything I wanted in the next week’s auction.

 

The future

The hunt continues, but my hopes aren’t high. Should I contact Jag dealers and ask if they’ve got any trade-ins? That kind of budget is obviously below what they normally put used cars up for, but people must trade them in, do they go straight to the dodgy dealers?

 

Would something like a Honda Accord be a safer bet generally? I looked BMW E39s but the 520 isn’t well thought of (dunno why, 170bhp seems enough for the school run) and 525s are thin on the ground.

[r.welfare]

Tough one. Personally I'd think the money would be spent better privately - the S-Type had a fairly decent old-giffer following when new and I would have thought a good, 1 owner jobbie with a full dealer (or even better, specialist once out of warranty) history would be a far better long-term bet than these tired dogs you've seen so far. Then again, 2-3k is not an insubstantial wad of cash and I can see why you'd go the dealer route for some kind of warranty or comeback if things went wrong.

 

Bide your time and use the experience from these ropey ones to ensure a 'decent' example passes muster. Or, if you need something quick, be a little more flexible in your requirements.

 

Statistically a Honda Accord might be a better bet but I think you'd struggle to get three child seats across the back. Mine has been the most reliable car I've ever owned, but I don't really have any fondness for it, it's just a four-wheeled appliance. Ideal for me (as is the Avensis, if I'm honest) with a small child and major house renovations taking up time that I'd normally spend with a polishing mop or socket set in my hand, but if you're looking at S-Types then I don't think an Accord will satisfy you in the same way.

 

I'm not sure why E39 520's are poorly thought-of either. 170bhp must mean the late 2.2-engined one? Former colleague of mine ran one for three years or so until just recently, Y-plate auto Touring in fairly basic (for an E39) spec - small alloys, cloth, analogue aircon. I seem to recall a few hiccups with O2 sensors and the TC/ABS warning lights, but otherwise it was OK.

[dollywobbler]

Tayne sums it up nicely. I wonder if there are any Jag forums out there with classifieds? I get the impression that the S-Type is a bit like the Rover 75, and attracts obsessives. You want a car owned by someone who's not measly with the cash when needed. To a lot of people though, an S-Type is just another old car. Main dealers won't be interested in stocking anything within your budget.

 

Our neighbour has just scored an S-Type for just under £6k. Can't remember the reg, but it's in lovely condition. He opted for petrol, reasoning that diesels were a lot more money and more prone to developing issues.

[autofive]

after reading your tale of woe

 

1. dealers seem to advertise cars they havent got, thats why 'we just took a deposit on it'

2. dealers also sell customers cars, and cars from other dealers, thats why the jag was 'out getting petrol'

3. 99.99% of dealers are lying cheating basatrds, thats why you never buy a car from them

4. most dealers dont want to sell a car for cash. Thay want commission on the loan and the warranty (and use your warranty to fix your car before you pick it up)

5. dealers only have slightly more scruples than fred west.

[warren t claim]

http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-moto ... /106231667

You'll get this for under £2000.

 

http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-moto ... /105937485

£2850/

[jonny69]

I think we can all learn a bit from your post there Warren. Sadly, it's why miserable operations like Carcraft have risen, because people 'trust' the brand and the fact that they might have some comeback*. We were looking for a motor a while back and I had pretty much the same experience trawling round dealers. It really is one of the most miserable activities and I can see the draw now, why people buy new. For me: I'll just stick with my old rammel I think, and keep fixing it when it does.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

BCA seem to have a few petrol S Stypes:

 

MT55YTV JAGUAR S-TYPE 2.5 V6, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Blue, Margin 32274 Warranted 31/10/2005 Preston 16/07/2012

 

KH02NNA JAGUAR S-TYPE 2.5 V6 SE, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Manual, Beige, Margin, Log Book 85700 Warranted 29/08/2002 Brighouse 12/07/2012

 

LS53NWE JAGUAR S-TYPE 3.0 V6 SE, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Blue, Margin Unknown/Not Warranted 30/10/2003 Enfield 17/07/2012

 

V384PTW JAGUAR S-TYPE 3.0 V6 SE, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Green, 87515 Warranted 14/02/2000 Blackbushe 16/07/2012

 

LB05FVR JAGUAR S-TYPE 3.0 V6 SE, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Grey, Margin, 48661 Warranted 07/07/2005 Blackbushe 13/07/2012

 

T741AFX JAGUAR S-TYPE 3.0 V6, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Blue, Margin, 55067 Not Warranted 29/04/1999 Measham 13/07/2012

 

HCZ2272 JAGUAR S-TYPE 3.0 V6 SE, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Blue, Margin 73202 Not Warranted 24/10/2000 Belle Vue 13/07/2012

 

RF03VZC JAGUAR S-TYPE 3.0 V6 SE, 4 Doors, Saloon, Petrol, Automatic, Silver, Margin, Log Book 151666 Warranted 17/06/2003 Bedford 12/07/2012

 

About six months ago I was at Mannnnheim Mansfield with a mate to buy an 03 plate Fester Tdddcidi. It made £100 more than an utterly mint, two owner 3.0 auto S Type in gold with tan leather - about £1200 iirc and an 02plate.

 

 

 

I wouldn't turn down a 2.2 520i either. They're a nice smooth drive although the 525i is obviously more grunty with similar economy.

[Spiny Norman]

The main reason I wouldn't buy that type of car (10 year old luxobarge) at a dealer is you just know that he's paid about a grand for it at auction or as a trade-in (Ooooohh dearie me sir, it's a big petrol engined motor, and nobody's buying them.... ) and they'll have done feck all to it other than give it a clean.

 

Far better to pick one up from the market or the private punter yourself I'd say. Dealers might be an evil necessity if you're buying an almost new car but the £2-3k mark is probably the worst price range to be buying from them I'd say.

[cort16]

I actually feel sorry for a lot of these smaller dealers as they're running on thin margins with the risk of any car they sell going pop within the month and them having to stump up to pay for repairs. Having bought and sold a few cars in my time I know how easy it is to make no money or lose money on them because 1 thing (like a clutch) goes wrong.

 

If I was you I'd be looking for a low mileage full Jag history one as a private sale. Then you can at least eyeball the guy who owns it to see to see he's the sort that looks like he'd look after it or the sort that drives the arse off it and never washes it etc. Once it's been valeted and any scuffs sorted at a dealer it becomes much more difficult to sport a nice one from a total plum.

 

I quite fancy a manual one of these. Although they're quite rare it's got to reduce the risk of them explodering by a good 20%.

[Cavcraft]

It wouldn't bother me buying a car because the dealer may have made a fortune on it-it's what they're supposed to do after all! Also the overheads of most dealerships and decent sized independents are truly horrific, and advertising rates astounding.

Carcraft make their money from idiots, poor people and good advertising. Take an ex-company car, polish it up to high heaven and wait for some daft bastard who's taking in by shiny paint and shinier suits and tell them they need to finance the car they want.

 

Nobody ever gets ripped off on price buying a car because if you're too fucking thick to study Market values first then the only person to blame for paying over the odds is the one you see when you look in the mirror.

[dollywobbler]

It is true that when you buy privately, you get to check out the owner as well as the car.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I actually feel sorry for a lot of these smaller dealers as they're running on thin margins with the risk of any car they sell going pop within the month and them having to stump up to pay for repairs.

 

Indeed. The sale of goods act has basically become a 6 month government enforced warranty, there to assist thickos who haven't got the common sense to wipe their own arse without guidance.

[idiotboy]

It is true that when you buy privately, you get to check out the owner as well as the car.

 

And a cup of tea an a biccy too if you are lucky.

[Micrashed]

Carcraft make their money from idiots, poor people and good advertising. Take an ex-company car, polish it up to high heaven and wait for some daft bastard who's taking in by shiny paint and shinier suits and tell them they need to finance the car they want.

I went to Carcraft at Rochdale once, donkeys years back looking for a Pug 405 or similar and was quite put off by the lack of prices on the screen - it was all ££££/ month (but not for how many months)

So I asked and it was all "Well, tell me what car you like and we'll do a deal" from them and me saying "how the feck can I tell you if I like it if I dont know if the pound notes in my wallet will buy it"

They lost interest in me when I showed them a wad of £20's because I wasnt going to go for finance.

Never been back since, though I once went to Arnold Cark and found them pretty much the same (didnt buy from them).

 

I have bought from dealers in the past some are OK, some are not.

[trigger]

Some one i know is selling a S Type...

 

 

 

 

All i know is it's a 51 plate, 4.0 V8 Sport auto, every opition possible is fitted, There is a story why but i can't remember now, it come with the plate and he's after £2995 but he'll take £2500, I've just asked him the mileage and history but waiting for a reply, It looks bloody gorgeous i think!. The cars in Ipswich.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

 

 

 

If you asked Mitsubishi to design a traditional British interior, this would be it. Absolutely vile.

[HillmanImp]

I don't know enough about them to say whether or not its true but based on the fact I had seen 2 and they were both flashing warning lights at me, I would be worried that they are a bit high maintenance like that? Do they commonly go wrong or have you been really unlucky?

 

Hopefully you will find something. Good luck.

[Cavcraft]

They are really nice to drive and can come with nicer looking interiors than that. Seem to recall there was worries over autoboxes at about 100k+ though.

[cms206]

Some one i know is selling a S Type...

 

 

 

Sideways useless info; my boss bought four plates for some coaches a few years back, we've only got two of the four plates left - please excuse the double take I did...

 

DJ International - RIL 3692 by cms206, on Flickr

[Albert Ross]

I can see the connection though... Shonky old bus with mileage related gearbox issues...................

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

The gearboxes are the 5 speed ZF unit. They're okay but can break forward or reverse drums. Or they can do 200'000 without a hitch.

[garethj]

To answer a few points - it's not my intention to get one from a dealer, but there wasn't a single one within 40 miles being sold privately! It must be the kind of car where someone trades it in at the main dealer for a new Jag or new something else and the used car dealers have a line on all their trade-ins.

 

I went to see one this evening and it appeared to work properly, smooth and quiet and a nice colour. So I bought it

 

 

 

Rev, this one has a 6 speed ZF, apparently sealed for life but in America they change the fluid every few years and hardly have any issues with them. It's a Ford gearbox used in the Lincolns I think, motor is based on the Mondeo but it's a very nice drive indeed.

 

Interior on the post 2002 cars is nicer, this one's 2003 and has the optional satnav

[Albert Ross]

Nice looker... darker colours seem to suit them better.

[eddyramrod]

People are doing some really top purchasing at the moment, is it something to do with the time of year? Well done anyway.

[r.welfare]

Very nice! The facelift dash design looks 1000% better than the earlier one. The Rev's analogy made me chuckle!

 

Does it have the built-in satnav, Gareth? My recollections of my old boss's 54-plate 2.7d was that it wasn't a bad unit of its' time.

[AnthonyG]

It's a Ford gearbox used in the Lincolns I think, motor is based on the Mondeo but it's a very nice drive indeed.

 

 

Nice looking car, glad a good one appeared for you.

 

The S Type shares its platform with a late 1990s Lincoln named the LS, it has nothing to do with the Mondeo - that was the X type. An S type is considerably larger than either the first or second generation Mondeo, although probably about the same as the third gen one as that's bloody big!

[garethj]

The S Type shares its platform with a late 1990s Lincoln named the LS, it has nothing to do with the Mondeo - that was the X type.

Motor is as fitted to the Mondeo I thought? There's a liberal dashing of fuses and relays under the bonnet with the Ford oval moulded into them. And I'm sure the window switches are Mondeo ones too.

 

Doesn't bother me to be honest, feels very nice to drive and it's a lovely place to sit. £2650 was fair I reckon, especially as it saved me another weekend of misery dealing with more of the same.

[Timewaster]

Excellent purchase.

I bet you will kick yourself when you see the sort of 4 year old Hyundai you could have got for the same money!

 

after reading your tale of woe

1. dealers seem to advertise cars they havent got, thats why 'we just took a deposit on it'

2. dealers also sell customers cars, and cars from other dealers, thats why the jag was 'out getting petrol'

3. 99.99% of dealers are lying cheating basatrds.

 

Nothing new here I'm afraid.

18 years ago as an over enthusiastic 21 yr old with a wad in my pocket I was looking for a 205 Gti 1.6, Red or black and as mint as I could find.

I foolishly thought I would be spoilt for choice as the insurance on them had gone stratospheric at the time, but I was determined and / or stupid enough to want one anyway.

Before the internet, it was free ads on wednesday, local papers on a thursday and autotrader on a friday - thoroughly studied and scoured and a weekend of car hunting planned.

This went on for probably 6 weeks, thousands of miles driven, pez wasted and endless non existant or misdescribed cars.

In the end I just went to dealers and looked at what they had and found a honey of a car that I bought and hooned about in for several years.

[cort16]

My 7 series gearbox was sealed for life but it had a sump and filler plug and you can buy the filter from BMW.

[scooters]

I would suggest that if you are looking for a specific model at a specific price then be prepared to travel.

 

We picked up the 940 Sport from Littlehampton, 430 miles from Edinburgh. This allows you to choose the very best, private sellers on carandclassic.co.uk are usually the best as they will have included a lot of information about the vehicle. This method also tends to result in buying cars from enthusiasts rather than crooks - provided rules are followed then you can even buy without seeing the car.

 

Dealers capitalise on the 'just round the corner need a car quick' route and on folk impressed with tyre polish I have rarely if ever seen a good sub 4k car at a dealer unless its a trade-in-sold-as-seen. The money you will spend on the faults and hassle is usually far greater than the flight,petrol or train required for collection.