project 1980 Austin Princess

[Mr_Bo11ox]

The pukka BL flexi joint looks like a long coil spring thats been squeezed as far as it will go.

[Squire_Dawson]

I cannot add much more to the good advice given, which means everybody was in the same boat at some time or another. The Allegro does it but I have learnt to live with it by sorting it to such an extent that you can only hear it rasping on a cold start-up and it soon fades away once warmed up. The mating faces and the clamp must be scrupulously clean and free of all old sealant (though I suspect you already know that), and the best sealant I have used is CarPlan Fire Putty.

 

As to why this silly arrangement came about, I blame Austin penny-pinching. On the A30 and Austin-engined Minor the arrangement worked entirely satisfactorily, because of the traditional layout. The exhaust was free to move with the engine so you never had any trouble. But when the A-Series was mounted transversely, the torque reaction of the engine was enough to break this joint because there just wasn't the freedom of movement and in any case, a transverse layout put more strain on the downpipe. As it became so ubiquitous it was never thought of again, I suppose. Austin engineering really was miles behind their rivals Morris in the 1940's -1950's.

[KruJoe]

 a trip to Castle Cleland to chop bits off that Rover 

 

Aye, all still here waiting for you - hit the PMs when you're plotting a visit.

[PhilA]

Having had plenty of pfaff with those joints on an A series (longitudinal, really quite easy access) I have to say they're crap at best, and if the pipe has the remotest amount of spring to it in the position it's meant to actually sit and seal, it won't. Usually because the angle they want to spring to means the joint isn't aligned.

 

I've only ever had luck making them seal them the downpipe meets the ball of the manifold straight up when held up against it, held on with the rest of the bungies. If you have to fight it sideways, forget it.

 

My Renault has this type of join but has a proper spring loaded, bolt lengthways along the pipe design (with a collar around the lower pipe and bolts coming out of the manifold) and a big doughnut that sits between the two. It seals surprisingly well, so applying the clamping force sideways, a la BL is just generally a bad design, best left for old cast iron toilet pipes (which is where I think they got the design from).

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

Exhaust then I suppose today.  Drive over in the Princess as normal, nothing amiss beyond the exhaust noise and I find the throttle getting gradually stiffer until I'm approaching lights and suddenly the throttle jams completely.  Fortunately I was next to a bus stop so could throw the car into neutral to stop it running away and turn it off to coast to a stop.  Hazards on, bonnet up, have a look.  Somehow, it was earthing through the throttle cable again even though all systems were normal.  I had noticed a dip in the ammeter with the headlights on, much the same as yesterday, but it was stable so just assumed the battery was a little low from lack of use.  I let everything cool down and the throttle returned to normal, I then carried on to the unit with the headlights off, which I don't like doing on a drizzly day, but it was less than a mile of the journey to go and nothing untoward happened.

 

Wasn't particularly thrilled about this so the first job was to investigate the earth issue and we thought we'd resolved it when we noticed the headlight earth point was a bit dirty.  Made a brand new earth point which improved matters, but after a while the throttle cable started to warm up again if the headlights were on (and only the headlights), so I need to find out what's going on with that.  At the moment the earth points check out fine and there's nothing obvious, all I can say for certain is that something on the headlight circuit isn't routing electricity as it should and further investigation is required.

 

Exhaust next then, since I didn't want to chase electricals until that was sorted. Air filter box, carburettor and heat shield off first for access.  I never disconnect the cables going to the carburettor because the end of the cables always fray and I can never get them back in again, so I always make use of the flat bits of the engine bay to keep the carburettor out of the way and still connected.  Unconventional, perhaps, but saves me the expense and hassle of fitting a new pair of cables every time the carburettor comes off... which has been a lot lately.

20180219-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Mike and I wanted to make the exhaust components that were leaking as clean as possible so we opted to remove the manifold rather than dropping the exhaust this time.  This was also a consideration after folks on my various threads suggested the manifold casting can have flaws that cause issues with sealing, so we could deal with that too if it turned out to be the case.  The exhaust downpipe flanges didn't look too bad, with the exception of some exhaust paste to remove of course, so that was something.

20180219-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180219-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

With everything cleaned up, which took forever, we  aligned the manifold to the downpipes and immediately a problem became apparent.  We moved things around a fair bit to double check and played with the clamps and dry fitting to be sure, but it looks like one of the downpipes is at the wrong angle and if you bent it to be at the correct angle, it wouldn't sit in the correct place to meet the manifold.  This is probably the root cause of the exhaust blow and only a replacement exhaust is going to solve that.  I was therefore okay to accept the exhaust will blow when reassembled, I cannot do anything about this at the moment.

20180219-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

After fiddling about with the clamps and the jack and the exhaust, we got a better fit than the above photograph by sort of wiggling the manifold down onto the pipe with me bracing various pieces while Mike got the clamp tightened up with a little exhaust paste.  Then the chore of refitting the manifold while it was attached to the exhaust, which is about as difficult as you can imagine since it goes on with bolts rather than sitting on studs and there's a gasket to fit at the same time, so you need about 6 hands attached to two arms.  It was like playing Twister, just a whole lot less fun.  With it all bolted up the extras were reattached so the car could be started and here's an idea of the access available to you if you don't remove everything first.

20180219-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180219-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

The end result, on starting the car up, was that the driver's side clamp has sealed perfectly.  The passenger side one has a little bit of a blow, it's tolerable and should go through an MoT at least and will likely quieten down a bit once the car has been through a few hot/cold cycles.  Partial success at least.  Annoyingly the carburettor then decided it was just going to pour fuel out of the overflow while idling and didn't want to respond to any sort of attention and the headlights are still trying to earth through the throttle cable.

 

So the Princess has been left in the sin bin at the unit for a bit to think about what its done while I try and find the next bit of free time to go through the electrical issues with Mike.  Carburettor is probably just a stuck inside component, low oil in the dashpot or simply because SU.  I hate problems like these because they take ages to find and sometimes, even worse, mysteriously fix themselves.

[outlaw118]

This is another thread which needs a "FOR FUCK'S SAKE" button.

 

I class myself fortunate to have never had to piss about with any Austin, apart from a Montego which was as leaky as a seive.

 

Good work Vulg, always good to see someone cracking into jobs when I really can't be arsed!

[dozeydustman]

Glad you've got the exhaust in a better, less noisy position. Bummer about the carb.

 

I've never worked on a princess, so I'm not sure how the wiring is routed, just wondering if the headlamp feed from the dash switch shares a bulkhead grommet with the throttle cable and it's chafed.

[320touring]

Good work on identifying the exhaust issue -and a potential cure (properly made downpipe at the right angle).

 

Re the accelerator cable earthing - does it pass through the same hole as the wires from the headlight switch?

[vulgalour]

Outlaw:  I threatened it with the scrapyard today.  We all know I don't mean it, but perhaps it'll get scared into working properly for a bit.

 

Dozey & 320: Unusually, BL went to the extravagance of making TWO holes!  No chafing to worry about.  I need to get the dash out anyway to resolve the mystery dead bulbs so the problem could be related.  Like the exhaust, the wiring would probably benefit from being thrown away and replaced with brand new.

 

The Five Stages of Princess Ownership

Denial

Anger

Bargaining

Depression 

Acceptance <- you are here

[alf892]

my most memorable fuck happened just like your earth fault......

 

I left the bolt out of the body earth where the earth lead ones of the battery, bolts to the body and carries on to the engine. Result is the engine earth is ok but all body electrics struggle and use the throttle cable

 

The customer experienced throttle cable seizure on the A1.....he dipped the clutch and let it rev to destruction though. It became a very expensive come back job

[vulgalour]

Ouch.  First port of call on this was the earth strap but everything is present and correct, no errant sparks or heat.  It's really very odd.

[320touring]

#motivation

 

[Des]

Princess ownership = Stockholm syndrome.

When you fix a Princess fault it magically generates another, the trick is knowing when to fold, wait for something non-lethal and live with it.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

I’d be tapping up Basil Fawlty and getting him to come down with the largest, prickliest branch he could muster.

Alternatively, gently hook up some chains through the roof and windows, and try starting the car again.

Maybe, just maybe, it’ll get the message and start behaving.

[PhilA]

Is there enough room to stick a piece of scaffold or equivalent (matching internal diameter) pipe down the downpipe and try bend it to position, or would the lack of room and amount of play in the rest of the exhaust render this a futile exercise?

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

I'd have to take the bonnet off for access to do that, though the thought did cross my mind.

[chodweaver]

+1 for taking a big effing lever to the errant downpipe. I wish I knew what happened to my late Dad's crowbar when we emptied his house - at 5' long this solid iron bar (with a blunt end for lump hammers and a slightly less blunt end for breaking up stones when laying foundations; I digress, sorry) was just the right length, strength and weight for this job.

Tl;dr - if a scaffolding pole is too thick, try the longest chisel or wrecking bar you can get yer hands on...

 

Sent from my BV6000 using Tapatalk

[chodweaver]

*cold chisel

 

Sent from my BV6000 using Tapatalk

[PhilA]

Is the bonnet difficult to put back on square?

 

Do you have enough people to lift it?

 

If no yes, dooo eeet

 

You can either make it better or worse.

 

 

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

yeah... but I'll also have to dismantle everything that we took apart today and, tbqh, the blow on the exhaust now is minimal enough that I'm not fannying about with it.  Taking the bonnet on and off isn't the worst job, but it's more work than I want to do.  I just want to use the sodding car, this  year has been a joke and the pounds-per-mile have been FAR too high for my budget!  So we'll put up with it until I can't and save up for a new custom exhaust instead.

[PhilA]

Here's hoping it stays that way, then.

 

Truth enough in getting to drive the thing places.

 

BTW the lights thing sounds like the battery ground to body is bad. Where does the body ground go to? A boltable panel or a welded piece of frame? Also wouldn't discount the wire being frayed and/or broken.

 

Should also cheer up the light output a little if you fix it because the current path (get it?) will be significantly higher resistance than it should be.

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

The earth strap runs from the battery, to the coolant overflow bracket that bolts onto the battery tray that bolts onto the body, to the gearbox/bellhousing/clutch housing.  It's an old flat braided type so with feedback I've had from other fora, I'm going to replace that with a thick cable type instead to join the various elements since it won't hurt to replace the braided one.  What I didn't know is that the braided ribbon types can be pretty crap at doing their job right and it could well be a lot of my intermittent self-fixing issues I've had are related to that item.

[LC Torana]

The earth strap runs from the battery, to the coolant overflow bracket that bolts onto the battery tray that bolts onto the body, to the gearbox/bellhousing/clutch housing.  It's an old flat braided type so with feedback I've had from other fora, I'm going to replace that with a thick cable type instead to join the various elements since it won't hurt to replace the braided one.  What I didn't know is that the braided ribbon types can be pretty crap at doing their job right and it could well be a lot of my intermittent self-fixing issues I've had are related to that item.

 

Greetings from Australia.

 

Braided battery earth cables should be fine.  If the starter cranks the engine happily, that's the acid test.  I think we have to look downstream of there.

 

What is it that connects the gearbox housing electrically to the car frame?  If that's dodgy, I  could easily see current going via the throttle cable.

 

The headlight current path, from battery positive, should go (with engine turned off to ignore the alternator/regulator and simplify the concept):

 

Battery +ve > headlight switch > headlight > chassis > gearbox-to-earth-strap > gearbox-to-battery-strap > Battery -ve

 

But instead, you're seeing:

 

Battery +ve > headlight switch > headlight > chassis > throttle cable > gearbox-to-battery-strap > Battery -ve

 

 

Can you visualize what I'm saying?

[paulplom]

I've repaired a few metros with that method. Take the manifold off 1st. They were kept on by studs not bolts like yours so must have been a lot easier. The best bit was sealing them perfect only for them to crack/blow on your first attempt at a drag start (I was only 18 or so at the time). There's not much I don't know about metros tbf.

I had a throttle cable stick open while I was giving it the beans on my mams lime green chevette saloon. I had the sense to switch the ignition off though. Never heard an engine rev so high before or since.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I would internally sleeve both pipes with a good snug fitting steel tube each side. Something that taps up into the manifold and upon which the down pipes can locate.

[Ghosty]

Make a throttle cable out of string

[alf892]

You're welcome to have a go, Alf.  Everyone thinks this is a piece of piss until they have a go.

 

Run it down to me and I'll do it.......

[vulgalour]

Greetings from Australia.

 

Braided battery earth cables should be fine.  If the starter cranks the engine happily, that's the acid test.  I think we have to look downstream of there.

 

What is it that connects the gearbox housing electrically to the car frame?  If that's dodgy, I  could easily see current going via the throttle cable.

 

The headlight current path, from battery positive, should go (with engine turned off to ignore the alternator/regulator and simplify the concept):

 

Battery +ve > headlight switch > headlight > chassis > gearbox-to-earth-strap > gearbox-to-battery-strap > Battery -ve

 

But instead, you're seeing:

 

Battery +ve > headlight switch > headlight > chassis > throttle cable > gearbox-to-battery-strap > Battery -ve

 

 

Can you visualize what I'm saying?

Earth strap goes battery > coolant overflow bottle clamp that bolts to the battery tray that bolts to the car body > gearbox housing

 

While the starter will start the Princess, it has been slower to catch than usual, as though cranking power is down, something I'd just put down to colder weather and lack of use rather than any real problem. The strap looks visually fine and is nice and tight where it should be and no over-stressed by going around corners or similar.

 

I understand what the route the electricity is taking, what I don't understand yet is why. It needs going through one section at a time to find out what's happening using a multimeter I reckon, then we can find out where the electricity is escaping a bit easier. While it does seem related to the headlights, I'm not ruling out that it could be something else and the headlights being on is merely highlighting that there is an earth problem as it puts more load on the system.

 

 

Alf: When I'm sure it's not going to try and commit electrical suicide, I may well take you up on that.

[Talbot]

I've never really worked on BL stuff that much, but that twat of an exhaust joint reminds me of something I have worked on in the past, and we had just as much fun* trying to get that stupid tosser to seal as you are clearly having.

 

What we did in the end, which was absolutely and unquestionably a bodge, was to get a sheet of softish thick high-temperatue gasket material (approx 2mm thick, green, with obvious fibres in it which might have been asbestos?) and cut a ring out of it. Then get it nice and warm*, and shape it over an old Citroen Sphere (much like was mentioned above by Mr. Sherpa) so that it is now conical.

 

That was sat in the female part of the cone, and the whole lot was given a thin coating of cheap lithium grease, so that when it was offered up to the male bit (manifold in your case) and the clamps done up, it all slid neatly into place and the gasket compressed evenly. Done up as tight as we dared, and then a smidgen more.. run the engine, burn off all the grease and it sealed up a treat.

 

It was only the eleventy-billionth attempt to stop it leaking.

 

I remembered thinking at the time that if I ever encountered a joint like that again, I'd just do that the first time. Never had to again since.

[PhilA]

Just sounds like it isn't grounding to the body through the coolant bottle frame and bolt properly.

 

For giggles, clip a jump lead from - on the battery to a good ground on the car body. That's quick and simple. You own a BL car so you can't say you don't have jump leads...

 

 

Phil