project 1980 Austin Princess - OMG HGF

[Bren]

My first SD1 was champagne beige.

 

It really suited it's povo spec.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

 

Off to surprise some other Shuttleworth fans tonight when we turn up in it.

 

 

 

It'll be savoury.

[vulgalour]

It's been a while since I did so I went out to fire up the Princess and make sure the brakes hadn't stuck on, that sort of thing, and was greeted with a flat battery.  Thought that was a bit odd, but then it's been a while so maybe it had just gone flat like batteries do.  Jumped it off the Rover, fired up no bother and then I trundled it back and forth a few times while it got up to temperature.

 

Then the indicator flasher relay wouldn't stop clicking.

 

Then smoke started appearing from that area.

 

Turned it all off, checked for anything warm, or hot, or melted, and there's no signs of anything amiss.  Attempted to restart to recreate the issue and the battery is already flat.

 

Of course that means there's an electrical problem, probably an earth problem.  If I'd disturbed anything between last starting the car and today I could understand it but the car has sat idle and nothing electrical has been moved.  The suspension pipe removal didn't involve disturbing any electrical or earth points.  I reckon I'm going to have to pull the dashboard out YET AGAIN to get to the bottom of this.  Not particularly thrilled really that it's still throwing weird electrical issues at me and the last thing I want is the car catching fire behind the dash (or at all).

 

Haven't had time spare to organise getting the suspension pipe fixed either.  VED expires this month so I reckon I'm just going to SORN it and stick it in the corner for the winter.  Work slows down a bit November-February usually so I can probably crack on with stuff then.  Besides, I wanted to spare the Princess the worst of the winter weather.  Just feels like I've barely used the car at all since getting it back on the road in April.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

 the last thing I want is the car catching fire behind the dash (or at all).

 

 

 

 

 

What's the agreed value? 

[vulgalour]

It's not worth enough to have agreed value.

[plasticvandan]

sounds to me like something has been drawing power while its been stood?

[vulgalour]

I just don't know what.  It's not something it's done before and I've not touched anything electrical so I guess something somewhere has failed or come undone and shorted, or something like that.  I'm just a bit fed up of the electrical maladies with this car tbqh.

[purplebargeken]

Just disconnect the battery when not in use. No flatness. No flames. No* problem.

[Rusty_Rocket]

A failed alternator can drain a battery amazingly quickly, even with everything switched off. Do you get a significant spark when connecting a battery cable? 

[richardthestag]

I have one of these

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Battery-Disconnect-Switch-Isolator-Cut-Off-Switch-/170877531705?hash=item27c9183639:g:2xkAAOSwNSxVAcEU

 

on the staaag which doesnt get used that often. If I am parking up for a while I turn the green screw and battery has disconekt.

 

Flasher problem ouch, 

 

On the stag the 12v feed for the indicator circuit goes to the flasher unit, then the switch then earths through the corners of the car.

 

If the flasher unit is clicking when ignition is on and the indicators are flashing then possible fault in the indictator switch itself.

If the flasher unit is clicking when ignition is on and no lights are flashing then suspect a fault between the flasher unit and the switch

 

smoke leaking out of a Lucas loom is not a good thing

[Noel Tidybeard]

Then the indicator flasher relay wouldn't stop clicking.

 

Then smoke started appearing from that area.

 

 

the clues are there methinks

[SiC]

Yeah sounds like a wire to an indicator is shorted to ground/body. I'd disconnect the terminals to the flasher an measure against it to ground. I reckon it'll be reading nearly a dead short. Maybe a wire for a indicator bulb holder has come detached and is now touching the car body?

 

Smoke is probably from the flasher unit as it was being forced to draw huge amount of current. I'd crack the lid off that too and see if its burnt up inside.

[vulgalour]

The smoke wasn't from the flasher itself, just somewhere in the vicinity,  there's no deformation to the flasher (opaque plastic casing) and it hadn't even got warm.  That said, it is my main suspect for the same reasons as mentioned in the recent comments.  I doubt it's the alternator causing the issue, though I could of course be wrong.

 

For now the battery is disconnected and I've left the car to think about what it's done until I have time spare to investigate more properly.  I had hoped to get the suspension pipe repaired this week but work has eaten all my time.

[Squire_Dawson]

Yes, disconnecting the battery on a car to be left standing is certainly advisable. And, despite what many clueless morons say, British Lucas electrics were extremely well made and reliable.

 

Vermin may have been munching at the wiring.

[vulgalour]

Haven't removed the dash but I've had a better poke about and nothing seems to be amiss visually.  Got the battery on charge at the moment and when that's got some power in it I'll try again with the flasher disconnected.  Hopefully, it's just the flasher that's failed, in which case I'll get yet another one.

 

Very unlikely to be vermin damage, we don't get any of that sort of damage here, in part because of how many people have cats.

[SiC]

I'd get an inline fuse holder and connect that between the battery and the terminal. That way if there is a short still, it could stop a fire happening.

 

Possibly just connect it between the negative and body for ease.

[vulgalour]

Right.  Charged the battery and started the car no bother.  Alternator is charging properly and, with the flasher relay disconnected, I wasn't getting any problems.  Let the car start to get up to temperature and I could start to smell hot electrics.

 

No smoke, nothing obvious so waited a bit and the smell just got stronger.  It's coming from behind the dashboard somewhere and the only way I'll find out where is by pulling the dashboard out at this point *but* I don't think it's the flasher at fault, more that it was highlighting audibly that there is a fault somewhere in the vicinity.

 

Next step is to pull the dashboard out yet again, see if we can find any obvious fault and, if not, rebuild the dashboard.  At this point, custom dashboard feels a sensible route to go since I'll be upgrading everything with new wires and whatnot and able to make everything as safe as possible.  In the short term I've disconnected the battery and left it alone until I have the time to pull the dash and do a full inspection properly, which won't be today.

[JeeExEll]

Could you fit a custom dashboard on hinges?

[vulgalour]

That or fit a big handle on so I can pull it out as a unit like those radios you used to be able to get.  Feels like it would be useful at this point.

[SiC]

Got a wiring diagram? Google doesn't bring up much.

[SiC]

I wonder if a bullet/crimp/etc is not making good electrical contact and high resistance. So when left powered for long enough, it is slowly heating up and eventually getting hot enough to start melting stuff.

 

You don't happen to know someone with a FLIR or similar IR heat camera? If not, an IR thermometer you can wave around under there.

[Zelandeth]

I assume the fusing on this is similarly simplistic as on the early Metros, as such pinpointing the source without major disassembly is going to be hard.

 

If the dash has already been out, the favourite has to be the chances of part of the loom getting crushed when it was put back in place.

 

I'd probably pull the steering column cowl off first though just in case anything in there is to blame (is the headlight switch down there by your left knee like the Metro?).

 

At least I'd hope that once things are apart this should be pretty easy to see with a careful inspection.

[vulgalour]

Been rolling this around in my head to try and narrow things down before dismantling.

 

- ignition off, battery disconnected: all systems dead, as they should be.

- ignition off, battery connected: no hot electric smell, clock and interior light work, etc. as normal

- ignition on, engine not running: no hot electric smell (or it's taking much longer), interior light, clock, lights, radio, etc. all work as normal.

- ignition on, engine running: hot electric smell after about 1 minute, getting stronger the longer it's on.

 

NB:  Indicator flasher disconnected for all of the above.  Once connected, it continually clicks rapidly as soon as ignition is on.  Clicks at normal rate if indicators are engaged.

 

No change in how quickly the smell appears or gets stronger no matter what systems are on - heated rear screen, main beam, fan blowers, etc. - and all systems operate as normal.  Nothing in the engine bay is getting hot, doesn't appear to be earthing through the throttle or choke cable, for example.

 

Working theory (as supported in posts above) is a loose connection on the back of the dash, even though all of this has been perfectly fine the last time the car was used.  Only way to find that is to remove the dashboard which thankfully isn't difficult, just annoying because of how often it's had to be done this year.

 

The smell is very specifically hot electrics too, that slightly metallic ozone-y smell you get when something is overheating, but not the smell you get from dusty components warming up or Scalextric controllers.  It's definitely inside the car too and is surprisingly localised, you can only smell it from the driver's seat and it appears to be behind the instrument cluster rather than the ignition barrel or steering column.

[Noel Tidybeard]

next disconnect the column stalks and try again- disassemble indicator stalk and clean tracks- my 106 did something fairly similar which was alarming on a less than 3yo car!

[SiC]

next disconnect the column stalks and try again- disassemble indicator stalk and clean tracks- my 106 did something fairly similar which was alarming on a less than 3yo car!

^^ this.

 

Indicator flasher (if 2 pin unit) shouldn't be working away with ignition on, as it shouldn't have power. I'd disconnect that first and see if the smell goes.

[vulgalour]

I have disconnected the flasher, as described above, the smell persists.  Anyway, I'll report in full when I've had chance to pull the dash.

[SiC]

With it disconnected, it doesn't mean that power isn't going the wrong way through the indicator switch though still.

[MikeKnight]

The crimped connectors on the back of the current dash were always meant to just be a prototype, to see if my spaghetti inspired wiring actually worked and we could do away with the horrible printed PCB.

 

And it did!

 

I need to remove them all and solder the connections properly now. One of them has probably popped out and is grounding out. Those blue crimps I use for prototyping are absolute crap.

[vulgalour]

Probably the ammeter connections or something near them rather than indicators, I'd've thought.

[scaryoldcortina]

Instrument voltage stabilizer.

 

It's the only thing I can think of in that vicinity that might cause issues only when the car is charging.

 

Also, might be a symptom of overcharging - what's the battery voltage with the engine running?