The Autoshite Mass-Debating Society

[coalnotdole]

As a random example - there's a battery powered drag Beetle doing quarter miles. It's doing 10 second runs which makes it BETTER than a lot of petrol-powered stuff that it runs against.

 

Its still a beetle though...

[Guest]

I don't have a particular problem with electric cars other than the fact that they usually style them to look stupid - even when they make a "hybrid" version of an existing car they can't resist giving them dumb-looking wheels at the very least. What's all that about?

 

I live in a "city", my commute is about 2 miles and for the past few years I've been doing it in various petrol saloons. I like the presence and style of a three-box car, I like the smoothness/sound of petrol engines and I don't see why driving a short distance means you should automatically be in some little hatchback or an electric car or a bloody bicycle (of all things). It's one of the few pleasures I have left.

[Guest]

Oh yeah, and I don't car share and I don't ever intend to. Ha!

[HillmanImp]

I would like to point out that if everyone drove an electric car we would be fucked. There are not enought power stations planned to ensure enough power to keep them going so the current 'thang' of promoting electric power as clean fuel must be a con by the government and car manufacturers or something.

 

Although I have just been watching Rubicon whilst smoking weed, hence the 'whole world is a global conspiracy' jobbie. And I know you are all part of it. Bastards.

[Volksy]

Although I have just been watching Rubicon whilst smoking weed, hence the 'whole world is a global conspiracy' jobbie. And I know you are all part of it. Bastards.

 

Great series that!

[John F]

Although I have just been watching Rubicon whilst smoking weed...

 

I hope you brought enough for all of us...

[Tayne]

A few Questions.

 

On the upside, it's faster to "fill up" with hydrogen than it is to charge a battery.

On the downside, you've got to make the hydrogen to start with, and then convert it back to electricity to viably use it. You lose efficiency at each stage.

What's this about converting it back to electricity?

Don't hydrogen cars just burn the stuff (a la Hindenburg)?

 

Also, if you want hydrogen then why not use build a production plant darn sarf and use solar power to electrolise sea water (also neatly sorting the "global warming" sea level rise issue).

 

While we're on this subject how come, given the advancements in almost all forms of technology over the last 30 years, solar cells are still shit?

A 1970s solar powered calculator is essentially the same as a 90s one but if you look at all the other advancements those tiny cells should now be able to run a hi-fi, tv, dvd and laptop.

Imagine a solar panel covering a cars roof that could charge the batteries for a few hundred miles driving...

 

Any for all those people going on about electric cars it cities, how do you expect the people who live in flats to charge their cars?

Its illegal to trail an extension lead across the pavement and the vast majority of us can't guarantee a spot outside the door anyway.

[RoadworkUK]

But for those sat in London Traffic Jams (3.5 miles in just under an hour was my commute to school) they can' be beaten.

 

By walking?

 

By Britains biggest integrated urban public transport network?

[Rocket88]

One of the environments that small electric vehicles are best suited to is probably where I am now [Jersey] 45 square miles, longest trip is half an hour, allowing for traffic. So why aren't there hundreds of them over here?

 

Peolple will not buy electric vehicles "en masse" simply because they are not prepared to give up the one fundamental thing that a conventional vehicle gives us, which is the ability to leap in and go at a moment's notice.

 

If I lived in London, and I got a phone call at 1 am saying my dear old granny was seriously ill in a hospital in Newcastle, I would have no chance of getting there quickly, even in a fully charged electric car.

 

People will not switch to electric cars unless a] they are wealthy enough to have one for commuting, and another for long distance travel, or b] they are as easy to "fill up" as a fossil fuel powered vehicle.

 

Hydrogen is a dead duck for the foreseeable future, as the re-fuelling infrastucture would cost billions, which is money nobody has.

[ashmicro]

Motorcycles are the answer

 

In serious mode :Hydrogen storage

 

http://www.nist.gov/ncnr/graphene_031610.cfm

 

Or the new "Vein in Iron Core" storage I've been hearing about.

 

Nuclear power plants to produce tha juice for hydrogen production. However, the greenies won't like that either. What the fuck do these wankers want us to do? Live in the dark?

[Justin Case]

. However, the greenies won't like that either. What the fuck do these wankers want us to do? Live in the dark?

 

That seems to be a reasonable summary of their policies.

[forddeliveryboy]

Most post-2000 diseasals are over-complicated and fragile, plus they try to behave like petrol engines but just when you think a good one has pulled it off, the rev limiter cuts in. All diesels weigh more - a car's balance is affected so the twisty bits have to be bludgeoned, and more tyre wear.

 

But just as some petrol cars are crap and others good, it's the same with oil burners. An early 90s Clio diesel (1.9 n/a) was a great little tool - as good at the commute as the backroads point and squirt. Properly quick, too, yet relaxingly so - big engine small car thing. A n/a BX 1.9 felt glacial until you looked at the speedo and then your journey times. Once you realised that less is more, your driving became relaxed and you began thinking more. Try to drive like in a GTi and suddenly the engine would feel slow where it had felt quick, the fuel needle would start to move and it would feel like you were getting nowhere fast. The turbo'd BXs were decently quick, although any turbo-d lacks that wonderful indestructible clockwork toy feel of a n/a one and is rarely so much faster A to B.

 

Kraut-wise, I love the old straight five Audi lump - about 140bhp and 220ft.lb in TDi form - so even under a big car it is quick even over 100mph, to an eventual 130 or so. Genuine 50mpg average if you drive within the law and don't do short journeys on cold engines. It's what I'm using at the moment, it's good to have a car with the comfort and idiosyncracies of an 80s barge combined with TDi parsimony and speed. I love the 5's warble and off-beat V8 sound, especially when it's gulping used rapeseed oil.

 

The W124 straight sixes are diesel perfection in my eyes, almost silent idle (none of the nasty diesel clatter since they use their own design of pre-chamber) and whispering in use until you bury your right foot and the thing sets off very rapidly in 1st gear, holding onto the revs through second then third, the engine gently wailing. These cars could change even a Saxo-driving chav's bad habits. A good one will go more than forty miles on a gallon of oil at a steady 65-70.

 

Drive any of the above followed by a petrol car and chances are it will feel feeble and unecessarily noisy and revvy in 21st century driving. Peugeot petrol engines were/are rarely as refined as their diesel alternatives. There aren't many inline 4s which sound and feel pleasant above 4500rpm, which is where the max go is.

 

It is the flat four petrol engines which are gorgeous, the flat and inline sixes, the tiny flat twins under little Citroens which rev until you think there can't be any valvegear left. Engines which get no louder or nastier the higher they rev really make diesels feel horrid.

[John F]

It is the flat four petrol engines which are gorgeous...

 

Horses for courses, mate. I can't stand the sound of 'em myself.

[forddeliveryboy]

. However, the greenies won't like that either. What the fuck do these wankers want us to do? Live in the dark?

 

That seems to be a reasonable summary of their policies.

 

Just maybe to extricate ourselves from reliance on an energy source which is going to multiply in value as China becomes increasingly rich and we become increasingly poor. I hate the thought of EVs, but there's no denying what a waste it is to have thousands of internal combustion engines burning fuel in long queues when electric cars only use power when they're moving. Save fossil fuel for the open road/back of beyond - it'll be taxed increasingly heavily as the grid is improved to meet demands of EVs.

 

Hydrogen has always been a govt smokescreen for the fact nobody has had much idea about what to do when oil runs low. Once there is cheap enough energy to make Hydrogen then we'll use that to power us rather than making wasteful Hydrogen. What they liked was the fact that Joe Bloggs couldn't make it himself, reinforcing the idea that govt is the only supplier of energy to power your transport. That is to say, they have a monopoly so can tax it as much as they want.

 

Electric hybrids make some sense if the ICE is disconnected from the drive - ie working just as a generator to power the motors and charge batteries. Hybrids as we know them are purely a sop to the politicians and make little sense - a Golf TDi is as economical than a Prius. EVs with no on-board recharging will continue to struggle unless in a big city.

 

Interesting fact: electric motors are six times heavier than hydraulic motors. And electric capacitance is three times less efficient than hydraulic capacitance. What does this mean? Rather than carrying around a heavy load of inefficient batteries, we should carry around an empty pressure vessel which can be charged by hydraulic motors under braking and when the engine is idling, to re-accelerate the vehicle as necessary. Research shows that mpg can easily be doubled with a hydrostatic transmission - more so in traffic, about 10% less economy when driving at V-max. So why is industry faffing about with batteries and washing machine motors?

[forddeliveryboy]

It is the flat four petrol engines which are gorgeous...

 

Horses for courses, mate. I can't stand the sound of 'em myself.

 

Ok, the VW Beetle engine was unpleasant. But have you driven a boxer engined Alfa or Citroen? On paper, there is little comparison in NVH, the boxer wins hands down. Beyond that, the sound of a good flat four is something I prefer to a God-fearing inline engine, used for no other reason than it's cheap to make.

[eddyramrod]

It is the flat four petrol engines which are gorgeous...

 

Horses for courses, mate. I can't stand the sound of 'em myself.

 

There isn't one that can compete with the sound of a V8.

 

Woo, that was unequivocal! I'm scaring myself here!

[M'coli]

What's this about converting it back to electricity?

Don't hydrogen cars just burn the stuff (a la Hindenburg)?

No, they use a fuel cell, which combines the hydrogen with oxygen from the air without burning and uses the reaction process as the generator of electricity. Some heat is still generated, but it's theoretiaclly and supposedly far more efficient at converting the stored energy into electricity.

 

While we're on this subject how come, given the advancements in almost all forms of technology over the last 30 years, solar cells are still shit?

That's just the way they are, I'm afraid - commercially available ones can only convert 10-20% or so of the insolation into electricity - it's got something to do with the energy of each individual photon and how it strikes the semi-conductor, and the way to get most energy out overall is to be able to harvest some of the energy from all visible light spectra and beyond, rather than trying to harvest more of the higher-energy(blue, u.v. etc), of which there is less around in the first place.

Imagine a solar panel covering a cars roof that could charge the batteries for a few hundred miles driving...

Nice idea, but even with 93% efficient solar cells(the theoretical maximum), there probably wouldn't be the surface area to be able to charge the batteries to allow "free" driving, even at the equator. Check out the solar challenge races for more information about the difficulties this would present, especially in temperate climates!

Any for all those people going on about electric cars it cities, how do you expect the people who live in flats to charge their cars?

Its illegal to trail an extension lead across the pavement and the vast majority of us can't guarantee a spot outside the door anyway.

That's why cable-less charging systems are being developed.

If electric cars are charged up on a windless night, their overall CO2 emissions will be that of whatever powerstation is proiding the baseload that night. However, if the wind is blowing like buggery, then the electricity can come from wind-farms and the owners of these will be paid for producing electricity rather than for shutting the turbines off...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/ne ... 5c21de114d

[forddeliveryboy]

There isn't one that can compete with the sound of a V8.

 

You're right, no competition compared with an Alfa V6 or Ferrari flat 12.

[Craig the Princess]

But for those sat in London Traffic Jams (3.5 miles in just under an hour was my commute to school) they can' be beaten.

 

By walking?

 

By Britains biggest integrated urban public transport network?

 

I got the bus for 6 years before passing my test, cars FTW!

[Tayne]

Any for all those people going on about electric cars it cities, how do you expect the people who live in flats to charge their cars?

Its illegal to trail an extension lead across the pavement and the vast majority of us can't guarantee a spot outside the door anyway.

That's why cable-less charging systems are being developed.

 

Cool.

 

Now how would that work ?

Getting electricity from my 100 year old, 1st floor tenement flat to a car which, owing to non-allocated parking, could be anywhere up to three streets away might be a bit tricky...

[TagoraSX]

There isn't one that can compete with the sound of a V8.

 

You're right, no competition compared with an Alfa V6 or Ferrari flat 12.

 

Or a 5 cylinder Audi.

[ashmicro]

Or a 10 cyl VW Phat-one. Strangely pleasant sound.

[Pete-M]

Escort BDA, Metro 6R4, Chrysler Hemi.

[RoadworkUK]

Stag, Honda NSX, Gardner 6LYT.

 

Be interesting to see how this thread develops. It's going on a bit like a nice pub chat. I'm off to bed now, but to try and pre-empt the thread drift, I'm going to say that Monster Munch are actually too big and can cause damage to the roof of your mouth. They hurt, especially if you put them in your gob and suck them to death like I do. Walkers make a big thing about them being the same now as they were years ago, but I put it to you that they were designed wrongly in the first place.

[Albert Ross]

Alfa 2600 Sprint...... it did sing, that one, before the floor dissolved.

[RobT]

I got the bus for 6 years before passing my test, cars FTW!

 

Am with you there. I endure using trains for my daily commute during the week, so at weekends I always drive everywhere and will continue to do so even if fuel were to top £2 a litre. Public transport is rarely a pleasure.

[chaseracer]

Commer TS3. Detroit Diesel. Aural trouser tentage of the commercial variety.

 

[fiatdaft]

Coupe 20 valve turbo,or any straight six turbo !

[eddyramrod]

Monster Munch ... Walkers make a big thing about them being the same now as they were years ago, but I put it to you that they were designed wrongly in the first place.

 

Is Monster Munch an original Walkers brand, or did they acquire it when they bought Smiths, like they did with Quavers?

[dollywobbler]

And what is the point of Salt N Shake? I had to give up and east saltless crisps the other day as the sachet of salt disappeared to the bottom of the bag. Grrr.