Bus Shite

[Inspector Morose]

17 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

As LBF mentions, I recently drove a 1958 Leyland PD2 back to back with a 1958 Leyland Atlantean and by golly, I think I'd take the passengers!

Worlds apart to drive. The PD2 still had synchro on only the top two gears of its fully manual transmission and the steering, unassisted on both, is way heavier due to the mechanical units being up close with you. And that's unladen. After about 20 minutes in the PD2 I was glad to get out again. 

Speaking as a conneaseur of driving every type of bus I could lay my mitts on, I would suggest seeing if you can get a drive of an AEC regent V.  Worlds apart from a PD2, full synchro on all gears, the steering is lower geared and lighter and a much nicer thing to drive ( this is from a confirmed Leyland fan). The AEC almost feels sporty!

Lodekkas are a weird thing. To get the cab lower, the steering column is tilted back, giving it a bit of "driving from an armchair" feel to it and they have a trick of trapping your knees under the steering wheel. Avoid a five speed on as it will embarrass you in short measure! The first four speeds are where you'd think they are (conventional H patten). To get fifth you go down past fourth, across to the right then back up again to select fifth (a bit like a hidden, secret gear). Going up is usually fine but the fun comes when it's time to come back down. Miss the change from fifth to fourth and there's nothing you can do but stop, wrestle the lever back out and back into the conventional H part to select first then set off again. That box has brought many seasoned drivers to their knees in frustration, almost as evil as a five speed manual RE.

[busmansholiday]

24 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

Speaking as a conneaseur of driving every type of bus I could lay my mitts on, I would suggest seeing if you can get a drive of an AEC regent V.  Worlds apart from a PD2, full synchro on all gears, the steering is lower geared and lighter and a much nicer thing to drive ( this is from a confirmed Leyland fan). The AEC almost feels sporty!

Lodekkas are a weird thing. To get the cab lower, the steering column is tilted back, giving it a bit of "driving from an armchair" feel to it and they have a trick of trapping your knees under the steering wheel. Avoid a five speed on as it will embarrass you in short measure! The first four speeds are where you'd think they are (conventional H patten). To get fifth you go down past fourth, across to the right then back up again to select fifth (a bit like a hidden, secret gear). Going up is usually fine but the fun comes when it's time to come back down. Miss the change from fifth to fourth and there's nothing you can do but stop, wrestle the lever back out and back into the conventional H part to select first then set off again. That box has brought many seasoned drivers to their knees in frustration, almost as evil as a five speed manual RE.

Regents were far easier to drive than Titans and the engines always seemed to pick up quicker than the 0.600.

As for Bristol's lovely* 5 speed box, I've had the pleasure* of an old ECW bodied RE as well as Lodekkas. The 5th down to 4th change was something you concentrated on, there's been many an unfortunate driver forgotten to change down approaching slow traffic with those problems IF it decided to play ball.

[Inspector Morose]

1 hour ago, busmansholiday said:

 there's been many an unfortunate driver forgotten to change down approaching slow traffic with those problems IF it decided to play ball.

Sonata in several movements by unaccompanied gearbox.

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Speaking as a conneaseur of driving every type of bus I could lay my mitts on, I would suggest seeing if you can get a drive of an AEC regent V.  Worlds apart from a PD2, full synchro on all gears, the steering is lower geared and lighter and a much nicer thing to drive ( this is from a confirmed Leyland fan). The AEC almost feels sporty!

Lodekkas are a weird thing. To get the cab lower, the steering column is tilted back, giving it a bit of "driving from an armchair" feel to it and they have a trick of trapping your knees under the steering wheel. Avoid a five speed on as it will embarrass you in short measure! The first four speeds are where you'd think they are (conventional H patten). To get fifth you go down past fourth, across to the right then back up again to select fifth (a bit like a hidden, secret gear). Going up is usually fine but the fun comes when it's time to come back down. Miss the change from fifth to fourth and there's nothing you can do but stop, wrestle the lever back out and back into the conventional H part to select first then set off again. That box has brought many seasoned drivers to their knees in frustration, almost as evil as a five speed manual RE.

Echoes of me embarrassing myself driving a Scammel on one occasion and in a moment of lapsed concentration managed to get hopelessly lost with regards to which gear I was in.  I don't think I had to come to a complete halt, but it was near enough - I was already unpopular enough with the people behind me even before that!

I did pull in and let them by shortly after though.  While that thing was fun, god it was slow.  

[Inspector Morose]

Just now, Zelandeth said:

Echoes of me embarrassing myself driving a Scammel on one occasion and in a moment of lapsed concentration managed to get hopelessly lost with regards to which gear I was in.  I don't think I had to come to a complete halt, but it was near enough - I was already unpopular enough with the people behind me even before that!

I did pull in and let them by shortly after though.  While that thing was fun, god it was slow.  

Gate change? My sympathies.

[cms206]

Nothing much to report the last two days; EN11 again yesterday, E255 today.

 

Also as there has been recent chat of trolleybuses, have trolleybus prototype E12; not sure they've got the pantograph right.

[SunnySouth]

Not the world’s most exciting photo, but following the recent unfortunate incident of one of Bluestar’s ex-Brum E400s ending up in a river, I was pleased to see that the rest of them are alive and well - here are a pair of them in Chandler’s Ford on college runs. 1269 is at the back; the ‘marine incursion’ victim was 1267.

[cms206]

21 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

As LBF mentions, I recently drove a 1958 Leyland PD2 back to back with a 1958 Leyland Atlantean and by golly, I think I'd take the passengers!

Worlds apart to drive. The PD2 still had synchro on only the top two gears of its fully manual transmission and the steering, unassisted on both, is way heavier due to the mechanical units being up close with you. And that's unladen. After about 20 minutes in the PD2 I was glad to get out again. 

Just think... up here, Central Scottish were still specifying Leyland Leopards service buses with manual gearboxes as late as 1979

Power steering (and high cabs) came in for 1976 across the board, Western SMT took one fully auto Leopard that year, then reverted to manuals for 1977; Midland and Western both went semi auto from 1978 (GMS-S and TSJ-S batches) but Central continued with the half-crash 'box until 1978 before moving over to the beautiful EGB-T and GSU-T batches with 4-speed ZF syncromesh manuals; those were fantastic things, and a really nice drive.

[dollywobbler]

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

[danthecapriman]

18 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

I showed my apprentice my Capri once. Absolutely no clue what the manual choke was! I had to explain what it was and why it was needed.😄

[N19]

It makes me feel old that Enviro 400s are now an "old double decker" relegated to school runs etc. In my mind they are still brand new and futuristic! Up until a few years ago, Metroline used them across the board on a wide range of routes - they have a few of the later ones still around. Sullivans have a few which crash and clatter around on school runs whilst kicking up a large amount of smoke.

[N19]

2 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

I showed my apprentice my Capri once. Absolutely no clue what the manual choke was! I had to explain what it was and why it was needed.😄

Anti-theft device against teenage joyriders?!

[High Jetter]

34 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

Not so sure, choke is a forgotten art, column change might be an issue too.

[N19]

I actually found that, when I got my Capri back on the road, I had to "re-learn" the quirks. They all came back quickly, but just the... calibration, I guess, of your brain to do things like manage the choke, deal with no power steering etc. 

I can usually jump between cars quite easily. But when I only had the Capri, and anything else would be the occasional drive in a works van or hire car, there were quite a few moments when I jumped into a shiny new transit and almost took out a bollard through turning the wheel too viciously! 

[Inspector Morose]

7 hours ago, N19 said:

It makes me feel old that Enviro 400s are now an "old double decker" relegated to school runs etc. In my mind they are still brand new and futuristic! Up until a few years ago, Metroline used them across the board on a wide range of routes - they have a few of the later ones still around. Sullivans have a few which crash and clatter around on school runs whilst kicking up a large amount of smoke.

I was at the launch. I feel very old.

In a similar vein, the first sense of realisation that I am older was remembering the earliest buses that I saw entering service being withdrawn for scrap as life expired.  I recall the WMPTE Nationals coming in and them replacing the ex-Coventry Bristol REs that had been transferred over to North Division (My earliest childhood bus memory was the weekly trip to Bilson market on an RE). Over the years that followed, I saw them settle in, get refurbished, get re-engined, got to operate some as a subsidiary company, and then watch them leave the fleet, scattered far and wide until slowly, one by one, there were none left.  Cradle to the grave.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

10 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

Ha! I kind of see what you mean, however if we used a time machine, the drivers of those old buses wouldn't be able to cope well with today's traffic levels and  general standard of driving!

I would love to have a go at a crash gearbox equipped bus.

So far, my half cab experience is:

A good few miles and years driving a preserved RT.

2× Leyland RTW.

Obviously, I prefer the Leylands. Yes the steering has more 'feel' but I just prefer the torque delivery of the O.600 power unit.

I also prefer the company an engine. Proud misanthrope, innit...

With sliding cab door; side window and windscreen open, ventilation is excellent even in hot weather.

Objectively as much as we all love older vehicles, modern ones are way easier to drive and are getting better and better.

 

[danthecapriman]

4 minutes ago, Leyland Worldmaster said:

 

Objectively as much as we all love older vehicles, modern ones are way easier to drive and are getting better and better.

 

I know it’s completely different to buses, but when I was at SSE my last van was a 66 reg Sprinter. Very very car like to drive with the layout in the cab and the way it drove. Quite a comfy thing to drive too. 
At the same time I had my own Transit mk2 - comparing the two was like night and day! The Transit was by no means an antiquated van compared to some but even so. The Transit felt like a big vehicle and had a much more ‘old truck’ like feel to it and its driving style. There’s absolutely no way you could drive the Transit like you could the Sprinter!

That being said, the Sprinter used to have an absolutely useless heater and the windscreen would freeze over inside in winter (no air con or heated screen!) whereas the Transit wouldn’t have those problems!

[N19]

4 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

I was at the launch. I feel very old.

In a similar vein, the first sense of realisation that I am older was remembering the earliest buses that I saw entering service being withdrawn for scrap as life expired.  I recall the WMPTE Nationals coming in and them replacing the ex-Coventry Bristol REs that had been transferred over to North Division (My earliest childhood bus memory was the weekly trip to Bilson market on an RE). Over the years that followed, I saw them settle in, get refurbished, get re-engined, got to operate some as a subsidiary company, and then watch them leave the fleet, scattered far and wide until slowly, one by one, there were none left.  Cradle to the grave.

In the late 90s and early 00s, back home, SYPTEs fleet of Dennis Dominators were everywhere, but as they grew older and low floor vehicles eventually arrived, they were sidelined to school services, odd routes serving housing estates or outlying areas, and the fleet was mixed up with vehicles ex-Sheffield being pressed into service. I remember thinking at the time the last were withdrawn that I couldn't imagine one of the then-new Volvo/Wrights Gemini buses doing a school duplicate!

 

1 hour ago, danthecapriman said:

I know it’s completely different to buses, but when I was at SSE my last van was a 66 reg Sprinter. Very very car like to drive with the layout in the cab and the way it drove. Quite a comfy thing to drive too. 
At the same time I had my own Transit mk2 - comparing the two was like night and day! The Transit was by no means an antiquated van compared to some but even so. The Transit felt like a big vehicle and had a much more ‘old truck’ like feel to it and its driving style. There’s absolutely no way you could drive the Transit like you could the Sprinter!

That being said, the Sprinter used to have an absolutely useless heater and the windscreen would freeze over inside in winter (no air con or heated screen!) whereas the Transit wouldn’t have those problems!

Modern vans are really very different - the new generation of Transit also feels like driving a car, with the gearstick on the dash, and all the same controls etc. The oldest ones are 12 years old now, I wonder how they are faring. 

[83C]

11 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

I think you could probably take a driver with say 5 years experience driving new or nearly new vehicles, give them a selection of vehicles going back each generation and it’d go something like this:

Anything fully automatic from now back to the late 1980s - should be absolutely fine given 5 mins to familiarise with the controls. Might find the heavier feel of some vehicles a challenge on a long day, but might end up preferring the lack of electronic interference in 80s & 90s buses. A semi-auto and how to drive them might cause some head scratching, and getting used to a manual would take a bit of time though of course by 1985 everything would have been all-synchromesh, just heavy. Be interesting to see how many attempts they would need at a hill start.

Late 1960s - early 1980s, the generation that largely set the template for modern buses. Mostly mid or rear-engined (Ford R-series excepted) heading towards auto or semi-auto, more power assistance creeping in and so on. If you’ve driven a semi-auto Olympian a VR shouldn’t be a problem, likewise jumping out of a manual Volvo B10M into a Leopard. Going from a modern fully auto coach with everything over-assisted and bags of power to a manual O.600 Leopard might be a bit of a shock, though they might appreciate the Leopard’s simplicity over having to drive a modern fitted with the awful Volvo iShit gearbox. 

1950s - 1960s, the big change - we’re into half cabs, crash boxes or pre-select, no power steering, ratchet handbrakes etc. As well as being much more physical to drive (despite having a conductor to deal with the passengers) they require a lot more thought and pre-planning. The RM is probably the most driver-friendly of all the half-cabs and can be driven fairly smartly in modern traffic without too much thought, but anything with a non-synchro manual or a pre-select and you really need to think ahead to minimise your workload as much as possible. In modern traffic that means trying to leave plenty of space in front and praying some prick doesn’t cut in and force you to change gear or come to a stop unnecessarily. Speed (or at least maintaining reasonable forward motion) is your friend, steering won’t be as heavy, coasting along in 3rd or 4th in light traffic is much, much easier than crawling bumper to bumper. Clutches are really only for starting and stopping the vehicle, gear changes are by rev matching and feeling your way into the next gear or if you must use the clutch, double declutching. If you’re in a preselect it’s a whole different way of thinking - whilst it’s physically easier than a manual you’ve got to get your head around it being perfectly ok to move the gear selector whilst your foot is on the accelerator, and not  to press the shift pedal (located where the clutch would be) until you need the next gear at which point you come off the power, press the shift pedal, the gearbox shifts up or down as required and then you get back on the power. The advantage of this setup really becomes apparent when taking tight turns such as roundabouts and needing to change up or down when both hands are occupied with steering - no need to let go, just use your feet to change gear and job done, so long as you’ve thought ahead and pre-selected which one you need next. 

Anything 1940s and pre-war, I’ve no experience of them but I would imagine it only gets harder and trickier to drive, I think many of us would find them a bit of a challenge.

[quicksilver]

I still think of low-floor buses as modern and vividly remember the fanfare around MK Metro receiving these first four Optare Solos in 1998. Their first low-floors, they were quite a revelation for an operator that had only recently pensioned off its last Merc L608s, which really were past their best after 12 years on intensive urban services. They advertised the forthcoming Midsummer Place shopping centre (the building site behind the bus); that opened 25 years ago but is still called the "new bit" by locals, and the Solos led a full life and had all been scrapped by 2013. It hurts my brain that vehicles like this are now classic buses that are being preserved and you're far more likely to see one at a show than at work.

[83C]

Ah, the Solo. The end result of an internal competition at Optare to design the shittest vehicle possible.

[danthecapriman]

I don’t think I’ve ever been on an Optare Solo! I can’t actually remember many of them around down where I used to live, but we had various ages of Mercedes ‘nippers’ for the smaller buses with Provincial/Peoples Provincial. The newest ones being around M and N reg. They seemed to run those for a long time. The earlier snub nosed Mercs went earlier on.

I lost interest in buses really once the National’s and VR’s were gotten rid of. We had shit loads of both down our way and they were literally a daily sight everywhere en mass if you went out anywhere. I actually got to remember some of the number plates on the most frequently seen ones near home. I loved them! Great looking buses and I loved going on them too. Once they’d gone I just found the replacement buses boring and totally style-less, so I didn’t bother with them anymore. 
It’s funny though, as those generation of buses I liked and remember are probably considered absolute crap by people who know the ones from before. 
Likewise, it’s hard to imagine now the buses that replaced the National and VR being considered classics. But I suppose they are really given how old they are. Most have been replaced themselves now.

[cms206]

Today's duty is on the CL6, a Central Line replacement service between Woodford and Hainault. River Road's SEe213 is the chariot of the day, an electric BYD D8UR with Scarborough-built ADL Enviro 200 body. 

First time driving one of these single deck electrics, can honestly say they're as equally well built as their decker equivalents. This is not a compliment.

 

[Pieman]

Found on FB - a Playbus at Five Ways (top end of Broad Street) in Birmingham, with bonus background shite.

[artdjones]

13 minutes ago, Pieman said:

Found on FB - a Playbus at Five Ways (top end of Broad Street) in Birmingham, with bonus background shite.

It's an ex Coventry, then WMPTE Daimler CVG6 and has managed to survive.

It looks like this now:-

[High Jetter]

It was Eastbourne's classic bus running day last Sunday, I didn't make it as was travelling back from Liverpool. Apparently the fleet included a Routemaster

[cms206]

Only a few more days of these, I promise... back to Sconnie Botland on Wednesday.

Today was a much busier day than most of the week... the day started well, with trespassers at Norwood shutting the line between East Croydon and the city. Change of track, tram to Wimbledon and collected by EN2 to head passenger up to Northumberland Park.

Traffic was fucking awful... over two hours to get there. But get there we did, and to my first bus of the day - one of the final pair of DOE class Enviro 400s which have now been decommissioned. My colleague (and former big boss when I ran the bus company years ago) and I collected DOE38 (him) and DOE40 (me) for the run down to Waterside Way.

... and reunited at Waterside Way with DOE48 and DOE54, also decommissioned and awaiting disposal.

 

Next stop, Wimbledon to pick up 656 duty on the 840 Wimbledon Station Shuttle. E257 again provided the first half, but the second half came courtesy of new Wright Electroliner DEL27.

Not a type I've ever driven, full of "driver aids" but it drove really rather well and was remarkably rattle free - thought with just under 1200 miles on the clock I'd kind of hope for that.

Did a handful of trips then ran it back to Waterside Way to swap for EN12 which was going to Ellis Road depot in Mitcham...

... which is home to these BYD things. Never seen one before which is remarkable considering they were a mix of 66 and 19 plates.

 

Dropped off, quick walk up to Mitcham Junction tram stop and back in Croydon for 2345. Not a bad day at all.

Two full days left in London and if the shifts are anything to go by, I'll not actually be in London for most of them 😂

[cms206]

Quiet one today - EN15 from Waterside Way down to Big Lemon's garage at Hailsham.

Then back by train; myself and my learned colleague then headed for Wetherspoons in Sutton, then sensing a bus spotting opportunity ticked off an Optare Metrocity down to Banstead... 

... where we are now enjoying pints outside The Woolpack. Cheers!

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, cms206 said:

Quiet one today - EN15 from Waterside Way down to Big Lemon's garage at Hailsham.

Then back by train; myself and my learned colleague then headed for Wetherspoons in Sutton, then sensing a bus spotting opportunity ticked off an Optare Metrocity down to Banstead... 

... where were are now enjoying pints outside The Woolpack. Cheers!

Lemon is Wolverhampton reg? I've seen Lemon buses round here, but not that one. Hailsham E. Sussex based? No trains from there now, sadly.

[Inspector Morose]

Ex-Dublin Bus Volvo B7/Alexander. That reg is some private plate that was related to its previous UK operator, Seaford and District (West Bromwich area code - think Jensen demonstrators).