Bus Shite

[cms206]

1 hour ago, Eyersey1234 said:

According to the on board computer our National Express Scanias are averaging about 10mpg. @cms206how does the MAN compare to the Volvo to drive? We had some MAN 18.220s and they were fucking awful to drive.  The Bismarck had a better turning circle than those buggers! 

My OBC reckons 7.82mpg which isn't far off the actual 7.36mpg. 10mpg on National seems low for lots of motorway running, I'd have been expecting mid 11s on distance work.

The MAN has it's good points; the steering lock is on par with the Volvo, it's got a really good lock. The 6 speed 'box in the MAN means it's a bit more pleasant round the doors but it's not got the grunt the B12 had when things get a bit hilly.

The Volvo brakes are sharper and the retarder is much more user friendly; the MAN retarder operates via the brake pedal rather than a separate stalk. The other side of that is that you can regulate your speed on the MAN much better than the Volvo, meaning you can tap the brake pedal to bring the retarder on then use the cruise control to physically control your speed. So far even on the steepest gradients I've used it'll hold the set speed downhill to within +2mph.

The MAN on board computer is a hellish overcomplicated thing compared to the Volvo setup and the steering wheel controls are similarly overcomplicated. The physical cab space in the MAN is better but I think that's more to do with Beulas than anything else. The MAN is a lot heavier on fuel and adblue than the Volvo was but both have really small tanks compared to the 900ish litre Bova tanks.

Personal opinion on kit available today... Volvo first, MAN second, anything DAF - VDL, Temsa and Irizar - in a distant fourth behind Scania. In fact Irizars are worse again, fifth place. Terrible things.

[Eyersey1234]

We had Scanias on NX in the 90s and I'm told they were terrible coaches then, very unreliable. Apparently Peter Shipp (then owner) said he would never buy Scanias again, surprisingly considering he liked Saabs, so when these were ordered it was a surprise. Apparently the engineering department insisted on Scanias due to parts availability problems with Volvos. They turned out to be the last vehicles ordered by the Shipps as Go Ahead bought the company a few weeks after they were ordered.  These are proving to be good coaches though, nice to drive and generally reliable, just a shame the cheap and nasty Caetano bodywork lets them down. 

[cms206]

All morning in an Enviro 200.

Lucky me.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

1 hour ago, cms206 said:

All morning in an Enviro 200.

Lucky me.

What box of gears does it have? 🤔 

[cms206]

10 minutes ago, Leyland Worldmaster said:

What box of gears does it have? 🤔 

14 plate with an Allison. None of your ZF sneezymatic guff.

[Eyersey1234]

2 hours ago, cms206 said:

All morning in an Enviro 200.

Lucky me.

Must admit I like the Enviro 200s, just a shame they get so rattly. 

[Leyland Worldmaster]

1 hour ago, cms206 said:

14 plate with an Allison. None of your ZF sneezymatic guff.

Cheeky get! 😜 I absolutely love* the smooth* fast acting* ZF Arsetronic Lite box of gears in the E200. 

It's the best* transmission in the world. 

🤓

[Leyland Worldmaster]

19 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Must admit I like the Enviro 200s, just a shame they get so rattly. 

In that regard, the MMC variant is much better. 

Other problems with the original E200 are Suspension faults. These have been subject to various re-calls:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/alexander-dennis-limited-adl-buses-safety-concerns

Interestingly, the US version and the MMC use a Four Bag Air Suspension layout at the back, as opposed to the UK and Europe Trailing Arm and Two Bag set up... 🤓🤓🤓

[Eyersey1234]

2 hours ago, Leyland Worldmaster said:

In that regard, the MMC variant is much better. 

Other problems with the original E200 are Suspension faults. These have been subject to various re-calls:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/alexander-dennis-limited-adl-buses-safety-concerns

Interestingly, the US version and the MMC use a Four Bag Air Suspension layout at the back, as opposed to the UK and Europe Trailing Arm and Two Bag set up... 🤓🤓🤓

I agree the MMCs are much better in that regard than the original 

[Inspector Morose]

Enough of this modern malarkey, have a small quiz for those of the bus persuasion.

This March marks the 50th anniversary of three things bus related, one entering and two leaving service.

Can you name all three? (@Busmansholiday is banned from entering this as it should be easy for him!)

[Yoss]

Bradford trolleybuses, and thus British trolleybuses, leaving. 

Did the Leyland national arrive? 

Don't know the third but two out of three ain't bad to quote Meat Loaf. 

[Inspector Morose]

You have indeed got two of the three, The first Leyland National was officially handed over to the NBC on the 12th March 1972 and the final trolleybus left passenger service in Bradford on the 26th March 1972.

The third was not as final as the trolleybus but was the last of its type for the operator who had owned by far the most of them.

[cms206]

22 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

The third was not as final as the trolleybus but was the last of its type for the operator who had owned by far the most of them.

Guy Wulfrunians at West Riding?

[Inspector Morose]

A friend of mine once recalled the tale of when he went to Bradford on the 26th March 1972 then spent the entire day chasing the last Wulfrunians on service that day, so much that he completely missed photographing the ending of the Bradford trolleybus system.

CMS, you are indeed corect!

[martc]

Richmond Market Place, viewed from the castle keep in 1972.

I guess the coach on the left is run by 'United'.

[busmansholiday]

23 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Can you name all three? (@Busmansholiday is banned from entering this as it should be easy for him!)

Is that because I'm a boring old twat who was at Bradford that final day, remember Wulfrunians in service and the arrival of the fucking National ?. Actually there's a fourth thing that happened in 1972, I started taking colour slides, so might have to start scanning a few for here. 

 

[cms206]

Western Scottish acquired six second Willowbrook Leyland Leopards in 1980,  numbered L1-6; GL4 later became Clydeside 597 and lasted long enough to pass to Ulsterbus in 1988 before joining Lough Swilly later on.

[cms206]

Clydeside inherited just over a dozen former London DMS class Daimler Fleetlines from Western Scottish on formation of the company in June 1985. The majority worked from Johnstone, Inchinnan and Paisley depots and lasted around three years before returning to London with Bexleybus; at the same time Clydeside were still acquiring Routemasters from LT.

These Fleetlines carried a number of different destination layouts, as shown below.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

46 minutes ago, cms206 said:

Western Scottish acquired six second Willowbrook Leyland Leopards in 1980,  numbered L1-6; GL4 later became Clydeside 597 and lasted long enough to pass to Ulsterbus in 1988 before joining Lough Swilly later on.

Classic BET Federation Bodywork. I have just remembered AEC Reliances with the same bodywork being used on School Contracts in the mid to late 'eighties... 🤓

[cms206]

4 minutes ago, Leyland Worldmaster said:

Classic BET Federation Bodywork. I have just remembered AEC Reliances with the same bodywork being used on School Contracts in the mid to late 'eighties... 🤓

The six came from Paton, Renfrew along with four Duple Dominants (L7-10), in five pairs; NHS 480/1L, SHS 961/2M and NGE 613/4P being the Willowbrooks, with SSU 396/7R and YHS 281/2S being the Dominants. The Dominants ended up with Midland via Islay, NHS 480L and the two NGE-Ps stayed at Western and Clydeside ended up with NHS 481L and the two SHS-Ms.

SSU 397R was a rather odd specimen as it was rebodied by Midland Scottish in the late 1980s with a second hand Alexander Y-type body.

[cms206]

As Leyland Nationals are a topic once more, I shall do some Nationals.

McGill of Barrhead took their first pair of Nationals in June 1977 and eventually purchased sixteen of the type new, comprising eight Mk1s (TDS 611/2R, XYS 595/6S, DYS 636/7T and LGA 977/8V) and eight Mk2s (UGE 388/9W, BHS 206/7X, B724/5 AGD and C263/4 FGG).  As an aside and something which @Inspector Moroseay or may not know, whilst C49 OCM was the last National built, C263/4 FGG were I believe the last two to enter service some six months later in May of 1986.

There were also a number of second hand examples purchased including the only 10.3/6 metre examples operated. Some photos of the second hand examples follow; SGR 549R was the only one not to operate in fleet livery at any point, being acquired originally only for spares but operated for a short time. I have also included the solitary Leyland Lynx purchased second hand which did not find favour.

[cms206]

Greater Glasgow PTE purchased a batch of twenty 10.3m Mk1 Nationals in 1979 as their LN1-20, registered GGE 156-175T, primarily to replace the Leyland Panthers bought new in the late 60s which had been an unmitigated disaster. Delivered in white, yellow and green, all twenty later recieved the later Strathclyde orange and black scheme but had relatively short lives with the PTE.

[cms206]

Finally for this evening, some Autoshite Allover Adverts.

[Eyersey1234]

On the subject of Nationals, East Yorkshire bought the first production National 2, LAG 188V which is now preserved. There were 3 due originally LAG 188-90V, but 190 was diverted to another operator by NBC directive. I'll see if I can find a picture of 188.

[Inspector Morose]

Speaking of the National 2, this was the first effort at a design for the new front incorporating the repositioned radiator.

[Inspector Morose]

And this was the first ‘prototype’ National 2. Strangely, it was built after the first one with the bulbous front (CRM928T) but was fitted with a Leyland 0690 engine as a testbed for the new mechanicals. 
 

[Inspector Morose]

Okay, we’ve had a National 2 that looks like a National 1, how about a National 1 that looks like a National 2?

DPW was one of the first attempts at putting a big heavy Gardner engine where the slim, lightweight 0510 used to live. With so little room left over after shoehorning the Patricroft powerplant in, the radiator was moved to the front of the bus. The above shows the second attempt at covering the relocated radiator after a front end collision. I believe the front was a proper Nat2 front removed from another accident victim. 
Second attempt? Yeah, the first wasn’t so, aesthetically pleasing…

 

 

so that’s a Mk2 that looks like a Mk1, a Mk1 that looks like a Mk2. What else could there be?

 

I think I’ll let CMS206 tell you about that one…

 

[Eyersey1234]

1 minute ago, Inspector Morose said:

Okay, we’ve had a National 2 that looks like a National 1, how about a National 1 that looks like a National 2?

DPW was one of the first attempts at putting a big heavy Gardner engine where the slim, lightweight 0510 used to live. With so little room left over after shoehorning the Patricroft powerplant in, the radiator was moved to the front of the bus. The above shows the second attempt at covering the relocated radiator after a front end collision. I believe the front was a proper Nat2 front removed from another accident victim. 
Second attempt? Yeah, the first wasn’t so, aesthetically pleasing…

 

 

so that’s a Mk2 that looks like a Mk1, a Mk1 that looks like a Mk2. What else could there be?

 

I think I’ll let CMS206 tell you about that one…

 

What the hell is that green one meant to be? Looks like the lovechild of a Mk1 and a Mk2 that didn't develop properly in the womb 

[cms206]

Ahhhh yes... OVV 517R, with the most creative front number plate ever seen on a National.

DPW 781T ran up the arse of an ECOC Mk2 - KVG 605V from memory - and was rebuilt using the front of that bus. OVV 517R was purely a result of UCOC being unable to leave anything the fuck alone - ISTR it ran for some time with a naturally aspirated 510 which certainly helped reduce oil consumption and smoke, but also decimated performance. It ended it's days with Kelvin Central IIRC.

 

UCOC were generally dissatisfied with the higher echelons on the NBC and very much went their own way, including completely rebuilding series one Bristol VRs to series three specification, largely because the NBC told them they couldn't have new VRs.

[Inspector Morose]

We did run at least one normally aspirated 510 at Chase (THX117S) and it wasn’t that bad. We did use a different fuel pump though that was a mixture of a Leopard housing with Perkins internals. I drove it to Duxford for a showbus the year we finished rebuilding it.

We also ran a 510 with a supercharger instead of a turbo. That didn’t work so well which was a bit of a ball ache as we moved the radiator especially to make room for the ex-Commer TS3 roots blower.