Price of LPG

[sheffcortinacentre]

As far as I know the tax is the same whatever you buy use LPG for that's why it's cheaper the petrol & diesel.

I still say if governments were really interested in environmental issues they should be encouraging LPG use.

[Metal Guru]

  On 09/10/2024 at 20:15, sheffcortinacentre said:

As far as I know the tax is the same whatever you buy use LPG for that's why it's cheaper the petrol & diesel.

I still say if governments were really interested in environmental issues they should be encouraging LPG use.

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Can you explain why LPG is better for the environment than petrol? Both are hydrocarbons, so produce mainly CO2 and water when burnt, so how does that help?

[bangernomics]

Produces less CO2 and NOx than petrol per mile. Thats the main reason.

The other is it was a waste product other than the odd calor bottle so was burnt off as a fraction at most refineries or used to generate electricity on site. It was profit from nowhere initially so was mega cheap.

The market is also campers who invested in refillable tanks because calor want silly money to refill a bottle but even now if it is 130p a litre at about 2 litres to a kg a typical 6kg camper bottle is still only about £15/16.

I still have one of those dodgy filling adapters for calor bottles somewhere from when it was 30 odd pence a litre and it cost £4!

Also I don’t miss pouring veg into any old shit idi I could buy to run to scrape an extra months mortgage payment in whilst enjoying the divorce fallout.

[Metal Guru]

  On 10/10/2024 at 07:11, bangernomics said:

Produces less CO2 and NOx than petrol per mile. Thats the main reason.

The other is it was a waste product other than the odd calor bottle so was burnt off as a fraction at most refineries or used to generate electricity on site. It was profit from nowhere initially so was mega cheap.

The market is also campers who invested in refillable tanks because calor want silly money to refill a bottle but even now if it is 130p a litre at about 2 litres to a kg a typical 6kg camper bottle is still only about £15/16.

I still have one of those dodgy filling adapters for calor bottles somewhere from when it was 30 odd pence a litre and it cost £4!

Also I don’t miss pouring veg into any old shit idi I could buy to run to scrape an extra months mortgage payment in whilst enjoying the divorce fallout.

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Less CO2? Yes every little helps I suppose but it’s not massive. If we all switched to lpg, it might slow down climate change etc a bit, but it’s not a solution.

Waste product?  I thought it was shipped in massive ships from Qatar.

[jonathan_dyane]

It also massively better from a tailpipe emissions/public health point of view

[Saabnut]

  On 10/10/2024 at 08:06, Metal Guru said:

 

Waste product?  I thought it was shipped in massive ships from Qatar.

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No, that is LNG - Liquified Natural Gas which is very different 

[Metal Guru]

  On 10/10/2024 at 12:26, Saabnut said:

No, that is LNG - Liquified Natural Gas which is very different 

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Yes I realised that after I posted.

[somewhatfoolish]

It's cheaper because it's taxed less; the stuff people burn in patio heaters only has VAT on it, the stuff in the pump you put in your car has about 14p a litre road fuel duty added on top.

[sheffcortinacentre]

  On 10/10/2024 at 05:32, Metal Guru said:

Can you explain why LPG is better for the environment than petrol? Both are hydrocarbons, so produce mainly CO2 and water when burnt, so how does that help?

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See bangernomics below the original post.

London black cabs running on it are exempt from the ulez .

[horriblemercedes]

  On 10/10/2024 at 18:37, sheffcortinacentre said:

See bangernomics below the original post.

London black cabs running on it are exempt from the ulez .

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I don't think it's exemption, it's compliance. The ones you mention use petrol engines that meet Euro 4 and upwards limits, so they comply with the ULEZ rules on petrol or LPG

[Lacquer Peel]

  On 10/10/2024 at 18:43, horriblemercedes said:

I don't think it's exemption, it's compliance. The ones you mention use petrol engines that meet Euro 4 and upwards limits, so they comply with the ULEZ rules on petrol or LPG

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Yes aren't they petrol conversions of taxis that were originally non compliant diesels? 

[horriblemercedes]

  On 10/10/2024 at 20:39, Lacquer Peel said:

Yes aren't they petrol conversions of taxis that were originally non compliant diesels? 

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I think that most of them were originally petrol but the manufacturer offered an LPG system. 

 

Buyers chose between diesel or petrol/lpg when they were new. Most chose diesel for convenience and availability. Nobody at the time expected low emissions zones 

[Lacquer Peel]

  On 10/10/2024 at 20:54, horriblemercedes said:

I think that most of them were originally petrol but the manufacturer offered an LPG system. 

 

Buyers chose between diesel or petrol/lpg when they were new. Most chose diesel for convenience and availability. Nobody at the time expected low emissions zones 

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I thought quite a few were repowered 

https://www.vehiclerepoweringsolutions.com/london#:~:text=By repowering your cab to,with the Euro 5 engine.&text=The maximum operating age for,a 15 year age limit.

[horriblemercedes]

  On 10/10/2024 at 21:45, Lacquer Peel said:

I thought quite a few were repowered 

https://www.vehiclerepoweringsolutions.com/london#:~:text=By repowering your cab to,with the Euro 5 engine.&text=The maximum operating age for,a 15 year age limit.

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Makes sense. Euro 6 conversion and proper re-registration would make it comply with the rules. It's not exempt though. 

[Dj_efk]

I've heard anecdotal evidence that the oil on cars running on it doesn't turn black, because it burns more cleanly. If (half) true, that tells you what you need to know about better emissions in terms of particulates, at least.

[Metal Guru]

  On 11/10/2024 at 08:47, Dj_efk said:

I've heard anecdotal evidence that the oil on cars running on it doesn't turn black, because it burns more cleanly. If (half) true, that tells you what you need to know about better emissions in terms of particulates, at least.

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Heat in the engine turns oil black , not whether your engine is burning fuel cleanly or not. In fact I’d suggest an engine  not burning all the fuel would run at a lower temperature. Particulates don’t get into the oil unless your engine is knackered.

[somewhatfoolish]

They do, combustion products get past the piston rings even on new cars, just in very small quantities. Combustion of LPG is very clean and produces very little soot compared to liquid fuels.

[Dj_efk]

  On 11/10/2024 at 09:47, Metal Guru said:

Heat in the engine turns oil black , not whether your engine is burning fuel cleanly or not. In fact I’d suggest an engine  not burning all the fuel would run at a lower temperature. Particulates don’t get into the oil unless your engine is knackered.

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FACTOID.

[lisbon_road]

  On 11/10/2024 at 08:47, Dj_efk said:

I've heard anecdotal evidence that the oil on cars running on it doesn't turn black, because it burns more cleanly. If (half) true, that tells you what you need to know about better emissions in terms of particulates, at least.

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True in my experience of running LPG.  Really extreme too, still clear and looks new when changed. 

[bangernomics]

  On 11/10/2024 at 13:44, lisbon_road said:

True in my experience of running LPG.  Really extreme too, still clear and looks new when changed. 

Second that.

Veg on the other hand produced fun side effects.

[sheffcortinacentre]

  On 11/10/2024 at 10:45, somewhatfoolish said:

They do, combustion products get past the piston rings even on new cars, just in very small quantities. Combustion of LPG is very clean and produces very little soot compared to liquid fuels.

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Yep oil in mine is very clean after 5000.

[andy18s]

My Discovery 3.9 I sold to @Skizzer many moons ago was so well set up it could be started on lpg from cold. 

I only sold it because the lpg station on my commute had closed,leaving me with a 30 mile trip in the opposite direction to fill up. 

[sheffcortinacentre]

My falcon is LPG only.

[DodgeRover]

  On 09/10/2024 at 12:06, Lankytim said:

There’s much talk about this on LPG Facebook groups. The theory is the price has been bumped up to kill demand and retailers can then remove LPG pumps as there’s no demand for them. Many are getting replaced with charging stations anyway. 
 

Some LPG fans are making their own contraptions where they can transfer gas from those big calor bottles into their car, illegally I presume. 

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There is absolutely no legal issue whatsoever with transferring gas from a bottle to a vehicle, if it is going to be used on the road you have a monthly firm to fill in and send to HMRC to pay your duty and VAT.

Exactly the same as if you were using veg oil as diesel but without the 2500l free allowance.

[DodgeRover]

Feel free to make your feelings about profiteers known on MFG trust pilot reviews 

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.motorfuelgroup.com

If you have Facebook you might also like to make a comment here

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1297537141202123&id=100028375496531

[Lankytim]

  On 17/10/2024 at 09:06, DodgeRover said:

There is absolutely no legal issue whatsoever with transferring gas from a bottle to a vehicle, if it is going to be used on the road you have a monthly firm to fill in and send to HMRC to pay your duty and VAT.

Exactly the same as if you were using veg oil as diesel but without the 2500l free allowance.

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I’m not bothered about the fuel duty, I was referring to the method used to transfer the fuel across. Some of them look lethal! 

[DodgeRover]

  On 17/10/2024 at 10:49, Lankytim said:

I’m not bothered about the fuel duty, I was referring to the method used to transfer the fuel across. Some of them look lethal! 

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Theres no legal issue about what you do on a non commercial basis. Think of it this way, a car in tank Petrol pump runs immersed in fuel or surrounded by a fuel/ air mix and as far as I'm aware they aren't rated as explosion proof.

[lisbon_road]

  On 16/09/2024 at 16:04, DodgeRover said:

 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tell-the-cma-about-a-competition-or-market-problem#:~:text=online%3A Report an issue to,by phone%3A 020 3738 6000

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Thanks @DodgeRover I've finally made my cma submission and encourage others to do so.

I've seen the argument that they're putting the price up to kill demand and then justify taking out the LPG supply, but I don't think that is valid.  If they want to take it out, they'll take it out, enough other outlets have done without any specific justification.  Just price gouging from marketing people that probably don't realise that volumetrically more is needed.  Next step is that it'll be gone. 

[Christine]

Calor  refill propane bottles went through the roof during covid .  Petrol was dirt cheap , Calor said there were not enough 13kg bottles  and so  i had to have 19kg . Luckilly i have a spare of each size to exchange  ..  A 13kg was about 25 quid for ages    , they're now 52 quid . A  19 Kg is now 60 quid 

[Metal Guru]

  On 17/10/2024 at 16:03, Christine said:

Calor  refill propane bottles went through the roof during covid .  Petrol was dirt cheap , Calor said there were not enough 13kg bottles  and so  i had to have 19kg . Luckilly i have a spare of each size to exchange  ..  A 13kg was about 25 quid for ages    , they're now 52 quid . A  19 Kg is now 60 quid 

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At one stage Calor announced they wanted to buy back any unused bottles for a refund of the original deposit which could be £30+. I went to take the two I have (having given up camping due to age and gas BBQs (any BBQs) due to Scottish summers). However, you had to have the original receipt otherwise it was £7. So Calor can FRO. Who keeps a receipt for 20 years or so?