2006 Toyota Land Cruiser - Staying Put

[AnnoyingPentium]

1 hour ago, St.Jude said:

I've found a specialist on Google, I'm waiting to see if anyone knows someone who's good with diesels near Stourbridge, and I'll weigh it up then.

@LoftyvRS is from Stourbridge IIRC. Mibbie he can point you in the right direction to a specialist.

[Dead_E23]

Sounds like they had either been overtightened or assembled with lots if thread lock.   At 22nm you would be pulling the wrench with one finger.

[Dave_Q]

On the one hand I think the post-mortem might not be helpful, but on the other hand I'm gonna contribute to it. 

If they are not replace every time bolts thats a bit unusual as most are. What thickness are they, M8ish? Or M5 or 6 which I think Merc and PSA etc use?

If they're M8 22 or even 25Nm is nowhere near yield. M6 or M5 then they are probably torque to yield.

Was this the injector that was chuffing? Another thing I have learnt from my internet expert status (watched 3 YT vids about injectors on a different engine) is that the clag can get down the threaded hole as well, if there is carbon or even oil/sludge at the bottom of the hole this will stop the bolt getting to the bottom of the hole and  can lead to this. Running a tap down the holes to clean them is also recommended.

[RoverFolkUs]

26 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

I can tell you now, those bolts weren't finger tight coming off. They were on tight.

Ive got another conversation going on with the lads on the Land Cruiser forum. This has happened to another member but he managed to rescue it with a lot of patience and sharp tools. It's a free fix if I can do it, so I'm going to give it a go as it's not involving drills or shit like that.

But, there's confusion over whether these bolts are a one use item and whether they are 22Nm, 21.6Nm, or 25Nm. The repair manual states 21.6Nm but doesn't say it's one use, the Bailey's document states 25Nm but doesn't say they're one use, then another source say they're 25Nm for new bolts and then 22Nm for a reused bolt which should only be used twice.

I feel a bit better that I haven't fucked up, I'd be mortified if it was a fuck up on my part. But I researched this job, watched the videos, got the PDFs, asked people who did the job and no one has mentioned these bolts being one use.

Oh yeah I'd definitely agree it's not your fault, shit like that happens all the time. Conflicting information never helps either

If they were extremely tight coming out then that obviously suggests someone's overdone it before and the bolt probably just couldn't take it another time. Maybe they are stretch bolts, but then you normally get an angular torque setting with stretch bolts which seemingly isn't the case here

Any free fix is always going to be worth a try, fingers crossed man 🤞

[St.Jude]

34 minutes ago, Dead_E23 said:

Sounds like they had either been overtightened or assembled with lots if thread lock.   At 22nm you would be pulling the wrench with one finger.

My thoughts exactly when you point out what 22Nm is really, I didn't think about it until you said it. The fuel line to the injectors are also 25Nm apparently. They were definitely tight taking off, I didn't tackle them though yet.

19 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

On the one hand I think the post-mortem might not be helpful, but on the other hand I'm gonna contribute to it. 

If they are not replace every time bolts thats a bit unusual as most are. What thickness are they, M8ish? Or M5 or 6 which I think Merc and PSA etc use?

If they're M8 22 or even 25Nm is nowhere near yield. M6 or M5 then they are probably torque to yield.

Was this the injector that was chuffing? Another thing I have learnt from my internet expert status (watched 3 YT vids about injectors on a different engine) is that the clag can get down the threaded hole as well, if there is carbon or even oil/sludge at the bottom of the hole this will stop the bolt getting to the bottom of the hole and  can lead to this. Running a tap down the holes to clean them is also recommended.

A post-mortem won't damage the engine any more, so I'm all for it.

I think the whole replace every time element, or the lack of clear guidance, I'm not sure if that's because it's assumed you'll change them. Like the documents aren't being written for first timers.

This particular clamp was next to the bad injector yes. I'll dig out my tap 'n' die set and clean it - once of course I get the old one out.

Going back and forth between these two forums, we're discussing the torque settings. This image is from the workshop manual from Toyota:

This is from the Bailey's document I was referencing.

This is the video @Agila shared which I've only just watched. 

I've marked the figures on the document in red, and the official document states 21.6Nm. The aussie states 22Nm, Bailey's state 25Nm.

The figures in blue are for the rail, as I didn't touch them but they were the next to be done. In blue, they're 16Nm for the injector banjo bolts and 12.5Nm for the leak off bolt at the back. Aussie man has these down as 16Nm and 13Nm. Bailey's has them down as 25Nm - but omits a torque figure for the smaller bolt completely. 

However, the Aussie bloke seems to suggest you can go a bit tighter on the clamps, so they could go to 25Nm. But the rest of the figures in that document are wildly wrong.

[jonathan_dyane]

What I will say is that if you have the Silverline torque wrench I think you have it's usable range starts at 28Nm. I suspect therefore that it either didn't click or did so in a muted way so you missed it and this led to you exerting too much torque breaking the bolt.

TLDR might have been better had you used a spanner...

[Spurious]

37 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

ll dig out my tap 'n' die set and clean it - once of course I get the old one out.

Worth getting some plug and bottoming taps for cleaning out blind holes, often a taper tap (the type in most sets) will leave lots of shite down the bottom of the thread.

[Dead_E23]

36 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

What I will say is that if you have the Silverline torque wrench I think you have it's usable range starts at 28Nm. I suspect therefore that it either didn't click or did so in a muted way so you missed it and this led to you exerting too much torque breaking the bolt.

TLDR might have been better had you used a spanner...

I reckon it's their 3/8" model, which does 8-105Nm.

55 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

This is from the Bailey's document I was referencing.

 

Stretch bolts.  They're usually single use.  I think that might be the problem.

You might also want to blow the holes out with compressed air if possible.  

[warch]

Aren't you about to sprog St J? Old cars have a way of knowing, so they can break down and use all the spare time/money you know longer have.

My Golf did an ECU (1200quid) around the time my eldest was born and a turbo (1200 quid again) when her little sister was born. The bastard. 

Toyota fasteners do seem a bit 'snappy'.

[St.Jude]

10 minutes ago, warch said:

Aren't you about to sprog St J? Old cars have a way of knowing, so they can break down and use all the spare time/money you know longer have.

My Golf did an ECU (1200quid) around the time my eldest was born and a turbo (1200 quid again) when her little sister was born. The bastard. 

Toyota fasteners do seem a bit 'snappy'.

No I sprogged 5 months ago, and because it's so much more agricultural than my wife's Merc he seemed to sleep in it more than her car. It's not a bad machine given its issues, but you're right. Toyota spend all this money on engineering yet seem hell bent on using cheese bolts for their cars.

Lad at work has loaned me this though without asking. He knows what the craic is with the car.

Also another Land Cruiser lad on the other forum has given me his number if I continue to struggle. So there is hope! I'll try this fancy tool tonight anyway.

[St.Jude]

Ladies and gentlemen....

We're winning again.

I mean sure, I probably shouldn't have used a wooden dowel but faced with a head office situation I can deal with some wood fibres before a good clean.

So the craic is that I used the red screwdriver has a magnet, and I started it off until it wouldn't move anymore. At that point I used the dowel to twist it as much as I could until there was resistance again. So the thread isnt clean, so it needs to be tap n died. Have you a link to those taps @Spurious

At the end, I got a 7mm socket and put the magnet at the top, and unscrewed it till it was out. I didn't celebrate until the broken bolt was a good 6ft away from the car!!!

Calling Toyota tomorrow for more bolts. Going to go to Halfrauds tomorrow for a new torque wrench as well.

[Dobloseven]

10 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

Ladies and gentlemen....

We're winning again.

I mean sure, I probably shouldn't have used a wooden dowel but faced with a head office situation I can deal with some wood fibres before a good clean.

So the craic is that I used the red screwdriver has a magnet, and I started it off until it wouldn't move anymore. At that point I used the dowel to twist it as much as I could until there was resistance again. So the thread isnt clean, so it needs to be tap n died. Have you a link to those taps @Spurious

At the end, I got a 7mm socket and put the magnet at the top, and unscrewed it till it was out. I didn't celebrate until the broken bolt was a good 6ft away from the car!!!

Calling Toyota tomorrow for more bolts. Going to go to Halfrauds tomorrow for a new torque wrench as well.

Well done!Great feeling when something like that goes to plan. 

[Popsicle]

16 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

Ladies and gentlemen....

We're winning again.

I mean sure, I probably shouldn't have used a wooden dowel but faced with a head office situation I can deal with some wood fibres before a good clean.

So the craic is that I used the red screwdriver has a magnet, and I started it off until it wouldn't move anymore. At that point I used the dowel to twist it as much as I could until there was resistance again. So the thread isnt clean, so it needs to be tap n died. Have you a link to those taps @Spurious

At the end, I got a 7mm socket and put the magnet at the top, and unscrewed it till it was out. I didn't celebrate until the broken bolt was a good 6ft away from the car!!!

Calling Toyota tomorrow for more bolts. Going to go to Halfrauds tomorrow for a new torque wrench as well.

Thats brilliant news - well done!

[Dave_Q]

20 hours ago, Spurious said:

Worth getting some plug and bottoming taps for cleaning out blind holes, often a taper tap (the type in most sets) will leave lots of shite down the bottom of the thread.

Based on my experience of automotive components the thread is very rarely cut to the bottom of the hole, unless it's absolutely critical mass produced parts are set up to be tapped in 1 go with a tapered tap. You can get right down to the end of the hole eg by cutting the thread with a single point tool, but this costs money.

The minimum full thread depth will be 1-2mm more than the longest bolt thread stackup and there will be 3-5mm hole beyond the threads, a normal 1st/taper tap will be OK for cleaning up the threads IMO.

PS, congrats St Jude on getting it out, big winning times

[Dobloseven]

All this talk of torque sent me down to my shed, where I found this lovely thing. Goes down to 8Nm and up to 60.Last calibrated in 2005!28Nm isn't much. One finger easily breaks it. 

[RoverFolkUs]

I had great success with the Focus today so that concludes we are living parallel lives....!

If your shite prompts my shite to fuck up through the car gods there'll be trouble

[St.Jude]

1 hour ago, Dave_Q said:

Based on my experience of automotive components the thread is very rarely cut to the bottom of the hole, unless it's absolutely critical mass produced parts are set up to be tapped in 1 go with a tapered tap. You can get right down to the end of the hole eg by cutting the thread with a single point tool, but this costs money.

The minimum full thread depth will be 1-2mm more than the longest bolt thread stackup and there will be 3-5mm hole beyond the threads, a normal 1st/taper tap will be OK for cleaning up the threads IMO.

PS, congrats St Jude on getting it out, big winning times

I think whatever crud is in the threads it's towards the top, as the further towards the top the broken bit got the harder it got to shift. I'll give it a good go when I can now. It's a bit shit really as I've not got a block of time like I had this weekend to do the job until at least next week.

1 hour ago, RoverFolkUs said:

I had great success with the Focus today so that concludes we are living parallel lives....!

If your shite prompts my shite to fuck up through the car gods there'll be trouble

What you're saying is, your fuck up the other caused my weekend of fuck ups?!

[RoverFolkUs]

2 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

I think whatever crud is in the threads it's towards the top, as the further towards the top the broken bit got the harder it got to shift. I'll give it a good go when I can now. It's a bit shit really as I've not got a block of time like I had this weekend to do the job until at least next week.

What you're saying is, your fuck up the other caused my weekend of fuck ups?!

That maybe more likely the case since I was first to pick up the spanners (Friday) 🤔

Bugger...

(#notresponsibleintheeventofmarriagetermination)

[Spurious]

2 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

Based on my experience of automotive components the thread is very rarely cut to the bottom of the hole, unless it's absolutely critical mass produced parts are set up to be tapped in 1 go with a tapered tap. You can get right down to the end of the hole eg by cutting the thread with a single point tool, but this costs money.

The minimum full thread depth will be 1-2mm more than the longest bolt thread stackup and there will be 3-5mm hole beyond the threads, a normal 1st/taper tap will be OK for cleaning up the threads IMO.

PS, congrats St Jude on getting it out, big winning times

I’m showing my inexperience here, most of my tapping is from working on semiconductor equipment in Intel 6 years back not automotive bits which is a different ball game… 
 

But I’ve had good luck with Presto taps on eBay (you’ll need the thread and pitch for what your tapping) you’re better off buying decent individual taps rather than a set of cheap Chineseium ones @St.Jude

[spike60]

10 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

All this talk of torque sent me down to my shed, where I found this lovely thing. Goes down to 8Nm and up to 60.Last calibrated in 2005!28Nm isn't much. One finger easily breaks it. 

Norbar are good quality torque wrenches, look after it. They also make them for Beta, the Italian company who supply tools ( or used to) Ferrari.

[St.Jude]

3 hours ago, spike60 said:

Norbar are good quality torque wrenches, look after it. They also make them for Beta, the Italian company who supply tools ( or used to) Ferrari.

I think it's the same as Halfords as they're made by some British company that make really good stuff, as per the Auto Express reviews anyway. 

Also, lost in all of this shit about bolts - the sludge. I think the head isn't too bad now, the crap on the clamps made it look worse than it is I think and I'm going to give the head a thorough clean before everything gets put together. The injectors are fine, as the seats were mirror clean so I don't want to take them out again and risk contamination. Again, could be lucky and the sump pick up be incredibly clean (judging by the bit I saw via the drain plug). Even when it comes off, I can still clean it. Then I suppose it's a case of 6 monthly oil changes - which given my mileage would be about 3,000 miles - so that should hopefully clean everything up as I think if it was starved of oil changes the sludge/crud would be baked on. When all of the stuff I've moved off of it was oily and soft. 

Nothings going to happen now until next weekend as I've a wedding to go to and I'm not able to drink at it. Joy. 

[St.Jude]

So I managed to get the sump off...

The pick up is relatively clean!!! Joy!!!

Even better news.... The sump is fairly clean too!!!

Only thing there was oil that hadn't drained. Far as I can tell the sump has never been off, so I am thinking the sludge at the top is only recent and a result of the knackered injector.

For all the heartache, I think it's a blessing.

Now I'm off to crawl on my back and scrape the sealant off the engine...

[RoverFolkUs]

Better be safe than sorry, that's good news!

[St.Jude]

3 minutes ago, RoverFolkUs said:

Better be safe than sorry, that's good news!

Until a bolt on the sump popped when putting it back 😔.

Fuck it, tis but one bolt with a load of RTV. It'll be grand, the rest of them are tight but I am not going near them with a torque wrench. Not after last time!

[St.Jude]

The most peculiar thing happened to me.

All new stretch bolts and injector screw things in place.

As I go to do the first screw (at the bottom in the pic) I start getting all overcome with anxiety. Long story short, by the last bolt I felt like I was having a bit of a panic attack. Not had one since 2010 when I had to go on a plane. Quite, quite odd.

Anyway, giving the rocker cover a quick clean as well as one last inspection of the injectors etc,.

[RoverFolkUs]

1 hour ago, St.Jude said:

Until a bolt on the sump popped when putting it back 😔.

Fuck it, tis but one bolt with a load of RTV. It'll be grand, the rest of them are tight but I am not going near them with a torque wrench. Not after last time!

Uh oh

dont be surprised if it weeps sadly, but if you've got enough RTV it might be enough to keep it mostly at bay

[St.Jude]

Fuel pipes are on, looking wonderful.

But I’ve misplaced the clamp that holds the fuel lines to the engine block/EGR cooler. Well I say misplaced, I think I was meant to order a new one as the old one got crushed. I also lost the washer for the sump plug. Great.

Wife won’t be happy, but hopefully I’ll have it ready on Friday for my day off. I can still program injectors and test the fuel pressure without the engine running, all the other bits and pieces can go on too. So when it comes to the clamp and washer, I should be able to turn the key and drive off.

he says.

[St.Jude]

I should really add some more to this, especially when it comes to the sludge issue.

The design of the rocker cover is such that there is a raised chamber on the left hand side where the oil breather goes in to it. It's enclosed with a small opening to allow oil to return back to the rocker.

Cast your eyes, if you will, at the absolute state of it all.

There was far, far more crud and shit in this chamber than in the head. This was even after copious amounts of carb cleaner, as when you unscrew the plate (as seen in pic 2) it remains stuck, as there is a sealant around it. I removed it, cleaned it with petrol with a rinse of carb cleaner, and fitted it back with some RTV. There is an oil catch can to go on which will hopefully alleviate this issue, as well as the injectors!

Also here is the clamp I was referring to:

There's another rubber piece where God knows where it's gone, but that clamps the 3 fuel lines to the EGR cooler. The 4th line has it's own bracket which I have, thankfully.

[Matty]

4 hours ago, St.Jude said:

Fuel pipes are on, looking wonderful.

But I’ve misplaced the clamp that holds the fuel lines to the engine block/EGR cooler. Well I say misplaced, I think I was meant to order a new one as the old one got crushed. I also lost the washer for the sump plug. Great.

Wife won’t be happy, but hopefully I’ll have it ready on Friday for my day off. I can still program injectors and test the fuel pressure without the engine running, all the other bits and pieces can go on too. So when it comes to the clamp and washer, I should be able to turn the key and drive off.

he says.

Come on lad. You've a crowd behind you, willing you on 👍

[St.Jude]

30 minutes ago, Matty said:

Come on lad. You've a crowd behind you, willing you on 👍

Ah I know, I don't know what's wrong with my head today really I just have a nagging feeling about it tis all.