Merc thread

[wuvvum]

This is probably going to be a slow burner as the old crate needs a fair bit of work and I have other fleet members to keep on top of, but I'll update it as and when.

This is the Merc earlier this afternoon:

I have been attempting to remove the starter motor, which has packed up leaving the car immobile on my drive.  The top bolt came out easily enough, but the lower bolt had to be got to from underneath the car, hence it being up in the air.  A gravel driveway is not the ideal environment for jacking a car up - a scissor jack is all but useless and axle stands even more so, hence the combination of trolley jack and wheels under the sill.

Both bolts and the wiring harness removed, it quickly became apparent that (unless I'm missing something) the starter motor ain't going to come out without the engine mount being removed.  Even then it looks like it's going to be tight to get it past the studs.

So tomorrow (or when next get time / can next be arsed) I've got to try and jack the engine up without breaking anything so I can remove the engine mount and see if I can then wiggle the starter out.  If it still won't come out then I'm a bit stuck, unless I can wind the studs out of the block, but I'm not holding my breath that that'll work.

Also I bought a bottle of touch-up paint off eBay.  As I mentioned previously, the car was originally beige and has been resprayed metallic green at some point in its life - I had assumed the colour was Mercedes Silbergrün.  The paint arrived a few days ago and I tried it out on a small patch of peeled paint on the bonnet.

Yeah, that ain't Silbergrün is it.  Not even close.  So I now have a car that needs paintwork, and no idea what colour it is.  Epic.

[Peter C]

Bookmarked!

That’s a cracking looking motor.

[spartacus]

That looks great, even on tyres on the drive! I'm sure you know but if you can take a sample of the paint, (filler flap), to your local paint suppliers they should be able to match it.

I'm certain you're going to tell me you know that, and there's no filler flap, and that the next smallest panel is the boot lid...

[bigfella2]

Great!! A w114, didn't know you had one of these, am a big fan see the avatar. Keep the updates coming.

[Skizzer]

Excellent. This looks a lot like the birth of another AS legend.

Needing to remove an engine mount to extract the starter motor doesn’t sound fun though.  If a jack is difficult on a gravel drive, then an engine crane is going to be a laugh and a half.

[wuvvum]

1 hour ago, spartacus said:

 I'm sure you know but if you can take a sample of the paint, (filler flap), to your local paint suppliers they should be able to match it.

I'm certain you're going to tell me you know that, and there's no filler flap, and that the next smallest panel is the boot lid...

It does have a filler flap.  The filler flap locks on the central locking.  The central locking works on a vacuum provided by the engine.  The engine cannot currently provide a vacuum as it can't be turned over due to the starter motor being knackered.

The next smallest panel is the boot lid.

[wuvvum]

22 minutes ago, Skizzer said:

Needing to remove an engine mount to extract the starter motor doesn’t sound fun though.  If a jack is difficult on a gravel drive, then an engine crane is going to be a laugh and a half.

It's not a great bit of design, especially for those sensible Germans.  I'm wondering whether I'm being thick and there's actually a really easy way to get it out - unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a Haynes manual (or equivalent) available for the W114/5.

[spartacus]

Vacuum pump? Of the brake bleeding variety obvs, unless there's another kind I'm not aware of...

[xtriple]

If you can find the feed pipe for the vaccum to the flap/bootlid, a gentle(ish) suck will release the central locking. I had a 116 that had the same system and lost all vaccumn and so couldn't get into various bits. On mine it was under the bonnet on the r/h/s bulkhead.

Any piece of trim taken to a paint supplier can be matched which is how I found out that Bentley Brooklands green was the same as Morgan Connaught green. You could get the Morgan paint but not the Bentley...

 

[wuvvum]

Very little progress on the Merc today.  I went out and had another fiddle with the starter motor to see if there was a way of getting it out that I'd missed yesterday, but no dice.  I got the engine mount nuts / bolt cracked off - four of the five were fine but one was a right twat to get to, almost impossible with the starter motor in the way but managed it eventually with a combination of UJs and extension bars, plus much swearing.  I didn't actually take the mount off though - I'm loath to do so until I'm certain that needs to happen as I really don't like the idea of jacking the engine up on the sump - it's a heavy bastard and I have no idea how strong the sump is.  Obviously I'll use a bit of wood to try and spread the load, but the sump isn't flat so there's a limit to how much spreading will be possible.

I found a seller in Australia offering a CD-ROM manual for the W115 220D, so I've ordered one.  I've had a couple of CD manuals in the past and they have been very variable in quality - I'm hoping this one will be of at least some use.

I did notice when trying to manoeuvre the starter out that there are quite a lot of metal particles on the bit which goes inside the bellhousing, which is not unexpected but still not a great sign.  I'm hoping that it's the starter pinion which has lost its teeth - if it's the flywheel ring gear then I'm looking at a whole nother level of shit and I will be asking a mod to migrate this thread across to the For Sale forum.

[wuvvum]

The workshop manual arrived yesterday, from Australia.  Pretty impressive really.  Unfortunately the section about removing the starter motor bears no resemblance to the setup on my car - I assume it's the petrol engine setup - so I'm no further forward.

Excellent*.

[axelvic]

I had a 220 diesel Manny years ago, and I’m quite sure I replaced the starter without removing the engine mount. Unfortunately I can’t remember how. I found a “Chiltons” guide and it doesn’t mention the engine mount having to be removed. 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

Is there no W114/5 owners' group on the Net somewhere? Some of them might* have encountered this starter motor removal problem before....

[garbaldy]

Have you actually tried to unbolt the starter from the belhousing yet ? There could well be enough movement to lift up or down above the mount, I can't remember what car I've had this on but did manage with a good but wriggling.

 

[Mrs6C]

Is this of any help?
https://mercedessource.com/problems/engine/616-617-diesel-starter-motor-replacement-1969-1985

[wuvvum]

7 minutes ago, axelvic said:

I had a 220 diesel Manny years ago, and I’m quite sure I replaced the starter without removing the engine mount. Unfortunately I can’t remember how. I found a “Chiltons” guide and it doesn’t mention the engine mount having to be removed.

 

Yep, that photo at the top of the page is the same one as in the CD manual I've bought.  My setup looks nothing like that.  For one thing there's no mounting bracket on the end of the starter - it's held on solely by the two bolts through the bellhousing.

3 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

Have you actually tried to unbolt the starter from the belhousing yet ? There could well be enough movement to lift up or down above the mount, I can't remember what car I've had this on but did manage with a good but wriggling.

Yep, starter is unbolted from the bellhousing, cables removed etc.  There's nothing physically holding it onto the car.  The problem is that it hits the engine mounting whilst the bendix is still well inside the bellhousing, which means you can only wiggle the starter by a few degrees each way before it catches, and that's not enough to clear any of the engine bay paraphernalia.

[wuvvum]

11 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Is this of any help?
https://mercedessource.com/problems/engine/616-617-diesel-starter-motor-replacement-1969-1985

Hmm.  I shall have a look at that as a possibility, but I have to say it did look like the engine mount was going to be the main issue.

I have to say I didn't find getting the mounting bolts out all that difficult - yes they were a bit awkward but not the worst I've ever encountered.  Maybe the setup on the W123 is different.

[garbaldy]

13 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

Yep, starter is unbolted from the bellhousing, cables removed etc.  There's nothing physically holding it onto the car.  The problem is that it hits the engine mounting whilst the bendix is still well inside the bellhousing, which means you can only wiggle the starter by a few degrees each way before it catches, and that's not enough to clear any of the engine bay paraphernalia.

Thats a bummer so definatly mount off job, have you got any old rubber that could be used between jack and sump, stops sliding and is more forgiving on the metal than wood.

[wuvvum]

It's out. 

No idea why I couldn't see this last week, but if you do exactly the right sequence of twists and wiggles at exactly the right time it will just clear the engine mount.  Getting it out of the engine bay involved more wiggling and unbolting the inlet pipe for the heater matrix but still less traumatic than removing engine mounts or steering idler arms. 

Teeth on the pinion don't look in the first flush of youth. 

[wuvvum]

Ring gear doesn't look great either if I'm honest.  

 

[wuvvum]

In fact some of the teeth are properly fucked. 

That might* explain why the starter was struggling to engage. 

Anyone want to buy a Merc? 

[garbaldy]

I thought it might just be a case of loose the heed and wiggle like mad.

Come on then don't be shy let's see some pics of this fine beasty.

[lanciamatt]

What you want for it

[Cavcraft]

Stupid question (so apologise) but is not economically viable to repair/could you shove another engine and box in?

[ProgRocker]

Wunderbar!!

[wuvvum]

42 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

Stupid question (so apologise) but is not economically viable to repair/could you shove another engine and box in?

It's economically viable to repair for someone with the right facilities.  Engine needs to come out, then the flywheel can be unbolted and either a complete replacement flywheel fitted or a new ring gear fitted to the existing flywheel. 

There's a complete second hand but OK looking flywheel on eBay for 133 quid, so not cheap but not ruinously expensive either.  I can't take the engine out on my drive though, and I can't afford to pay a garage to do it for me. 

[Cavcraft]

Ahh, that's a shame. I hope you can work something out.

[HillmanImp]

2 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

It's economically viable to repair for someone with the right facilities.  Engine needs to come out, then the flywheel can be unbolted and either a complete replacement flywheel fitted or a new ring gear fitted to the existing flywheel. 

There's a complete second hand but OK looking flywheel on eBay for 133 quid, so not cheap but not ruinously expensive either.  I can't take the engine out on my drive though, and I can't afford to pay a garage to do it for me. 

Fuckin'ell man just JB Weld them until it catches.

Fucking amatuers on here. 

[rusty998]

we have one at work waiting patiently for its time in the workshop,  very comfortable car these, I rebuilt a coupe version a couple of years ago,  and just loved the build quality 

[bigfella2]

10 hours ago, lanciamatt said:

What you want for it

I'd be intrigued to know also.