New shitter. 1982 Citroen VISA.

[Lankytim]

11 minutes ago, MrSteve said:

Yes, the 652cc crankcases and flywheels don't have the holes for locking at TDC unlike those on A-series Citroens.

Will you be getting the special carb base block with the vacuum feed to get vacuum advance working too, or is the plan just to get the Visa running reliably for now?

Ah, that explains why I can't find it then! Regarding the vacuum feed for the ignition unit, I'm planning on using the existing vacuum feed on the bottom of the carb that used to be connected to the original vacuum switch that was connected to the ignition computer. 

[SiC]

4 hours ago, MrSteve said:

If you can read french here's the instructions for finding TDC for the adapter I got for my Visa yonks ago (not a Burton one like yours).

Looks a bit of a faff hence not done it yet...

The Burton adapter is much easier to fit it seems- https://www.burton2cvparts.com/media/downloads/en_conversion_visa1.pdf

Using the power of Google image translate on my phone: (seems to have cut the first section off - paper not flat enough?)

approximate: use of a strobe light necessary !!) Assembly: First of all, it is necessary to locate the top dead center of the engine visa defnioint dead top will allow you to correctly position the ignition adapter for its final blocking and also to adjust engine advance both statically and dynamically (this last adjustment will be appreie a good advance "in real situation" which will suit your engine; no more trial and error On the top of the engine crankcase on the flywheel side, build a small tab " fixed index ”held by the hole and a screw 07 mm Using an old candle which you have emptied the porcelain, weld a steel rod (06/7 mm) long +/- 5 cm and the end of which will be well rounded (side entering the cylinder) Remove the 2 spark plugs from the engine Lower the pistons to the bottom of the cylinders Place this spark plug in its orifice and do not move it anymore !! Fit the piston slowly and by hand. stop it against this stop that 'is this modified spark plug In this position place a small color mark on the flywheel in front of the index that you have built In the opposite direction and without moving the spark plug by the other direction of rotation of the crankshaft, come again against this same stopper: make another colored mark Remove the "stopper" candle, and divide in two the distance (the shortest) between the two colored points (use a flexible tape measure, compass ...) This middle is the true top dead center of the engine reinforce this final position by a line of another bright color + punch (erase the other two construction marks) the screw propeller (attention an extractor is mandatory!)

[SiC]

I believe @Saabnut speaks French? Trying to think who else on here does too. 

[Mr Pastry]

16 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

Unfortunately I don't speak French but it would be interesting to see what that actually says.

Paraphrasing  a bit- 

"First you need to find TDC to fit the adaptor and time it statically, but a strobe will be necessary for running adjustments.

Make and fit a pointer to the opening in the crankcase above the flywheel.   Take an old spark plug, remove the insulator and solder a rod  6/7 mm diameter to it, projecting about 5cm (i.e. into the combustion chamber, thus making a gauge for piston position)  Remove both plugs, rotate engine so the pistons are at BDC.  Fit the gauge plug to one cylinder and rotate engine by hand until the piston touches the rod.   Mark the flywheel with a dot opposite the pointer.  Turn engine back until the piston comes up to the rod on the return stroke (so the other side of TDC) and mark the flywheel there with another dot.  Remove the gauge and  measure between the two dots - the shortest distance - and mark the halfway point.  This will be TDC relative to your pointer."

In practice I think the finger method will be accurate enough. 

I thought all Citroen lickers spoke French.  Not surprising the car won't work for you! 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

29 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

.... I thought all Citroen lickers spoke French....

Even the ones who do aren't always sure.

[MrSteve]

47 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

Ah, that explains why I can't find it then! Regarding the vacuum feed for the ignition unit, I'm planning on using the existing vacuum feed on the bottom of the carb that used to be connected to the original vacuum switch that was connected to the ignition computer. 

Good point about using the vacuum sensor's outlet on the carb! That's saved me £30-odd...!

[Lankytim]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Paraphrasing  a bit- 

"First you need to find TDC to fit the adaptor and time it statically, but a strobe will be necessary for running adjustments.

Make and fit a pointer to the opening in the crankcase above the flywheel.   Take an old spark plug, remove the insulator and solder a rod  6/7 mm diameter to it, projecting about 5cm (i.e. into the combustion chamber, thus making a gauge for piston position)  Remove both plugs, rotate engine so the pistons are at BDC.  Fit the gauge plug to one cylinder and rotate engine by hand until the piston touches the rod.   Mark the flywheel with a dot opposite the pointer.  Turn engine back until the piston comes up to the rod on the return stroke (so the other side of TDC) and mark the flywheel there with another dot.  Remove the gauge and  measure between the two dots - the shortest distance - and mark the halfway point.  This will be TDC relative to your pointer."

In practice I think the finger method will be accurate enough. 

I thought all Citroen lickers spoke French.  Not surprising the car won't work for you! 

 

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Using the power of Google image translate on my phone: (seems to have cut the first section off - paper not flat enough?)

approximate: use of a strobe light necessary !!) Assembly: First of all, it is necessary to locate the top dead center of the engine visa defnioint dead top will allow you to correctly position the ignition adapter for its final blocking and also to adjust engine advance both statically and dynamically (this last adjustment will be appreie a good advance "in real situation" which will suit your engine; no more trial and error On the top of the engine crankcase on the flywheel side, build a small tab " fixed index ”held by the hole and a screw 07 mm Using an old candle which you have emptied the porcelain, weld a steel rod (06/7 mm) long +/- 5 cm and the end of which will be well rounded (side entering the cylinder) Remove the 2 spark plugs from the engine Lower the pistons to the bottom of the cylinders Place this spark plug in its orifice and do not move it anymore !! Fit the piston slowly and by hand. stop it against this stop that 'is this modified spark plug In this position place a small color mark on the flywheel in front of the index that you have built In the opposite direction and without moving the spark plug by the other direction of rotation of the crankshaft, come again against this same stopper: make another colored mark Remove the "stopper" candle, and divide in two the distance (the shortest) between the two colored points (use a flexible tape measure, compass ...) This middle is the true top dead center of the engine reinforce this final position by a line of another bright color + punch (erase the other two construction marks) the screw propeller (attention an extractor is mandatory!)

Thanks for the translation(s)!

[MrSteve]

How did you get the fan pulley off- Haynes method of using an old track rod end & bit of rod?

[Lankytim]

On 11/9/2021 at 11:50 AM, MrSteve said:

How did you get the fan pulley off- Haynes method of using an old track rod end & bit of rod?

I used a puller on mine. On 2cvs you can insert the stating handle and waggle it around until it falls off but on the Visa the starting handle dog isn't there.

[Jimblob]

Hope to see a video of this Visa finally starting up soon!

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk

[Lankytim]

2 hours ago, Jimblob said:

Hope to see a video of this Visa finally starting up soon!

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk
 

Well.. I spent a few hours on this little French fancy and finally stood a half decent chance of seeing it running. The first thing I did was change the oil, I'd been meaning to for a while so grabbed a cuppa while it drained. I refilled with cheap oil to flush it out and will do another change with good stuff once it's actually running properly.  After that I grabbed another cuppa and removed the plugs, with a torch the pistons can clearly be seen hitting TDC.  This corresponds to the peg on the flywheel and on closer inspection white marks have been painted on the flywheel to indicate TDC. This shouldn't be necessary with the factory electronic ignition previously fitted, did a previous owner experienced the same issues I had? Perhaps it was the reason it was parked in a hedge all those years ago.  I had read that the peg on the flywheel was set at 10 degrees before TDC but it appears to be exactly at TDC when seen through the upper sensor hole.

I'd previously fitted an eBay special black 2CV coil so with plugs cleaned up and a fully charged battery the old crate actually ran!..... for a few seconds.  It doesn't seem to be able to suck fuel up from the tank and I was getting intermittent  bouts of engine action by pouring a little petrol directly into the carburetor.  There was quite a bit of popping and misfiring so I adjusted the ignition unit progressively forwards and backwards but didn't manage to make much of an improvement, eventually returning it back to it's original position. The plugs are a bit grotty and could do with replacement. I did have a pair of new ones somewhere but of course they've disappeared. I took a walk to the local motor factors who could get a pair in in a few days. I decided against it as Euros have them on the shelf.

Repeated attempts at starting the engine didn't result in more than a few seconds of running. It was fantastic to finally hear that 2CV style warble and it was also good to hear an absence of rattles or clonks. Regarding the lack of fuel from the tank , a year or so ago the pump was able to supply petrol to the engine so I'm not sure that's going on with it. Perhaps it's gunked up internally or a pipe has collapsed. Adding 5 litres of fuel to the tank didn't make any difference. I think I should probably replace the pump and all the rubber hoses as a matter of course, the carb could do with coming off and being treated to a rebuild but hopefully I can at least get it up and running first.  The constant churning over of the engine caused the starter to get hot so to avoid killing it I decided to call it a night. I'll get some new plugs, a few metres of E10 friendly hose,  stick the battery on charge and try again on Saturday

So. That's where I'm at with it. "kinda" running but not quite,  and no video... yet. 

[Zelandeth]

I've heard plenty of people report that getting 2CVs to prime fuel from the tank can be a pig after a period of inactivity, so you may well just be experiencing those issues.

Sure once you manage to convince fuel up from the tank you'll find you're making proper progress again.

[SiC]

Whoop! 

Tried a gravity fed tank?

Old fuel filters usually quite good as the temporary tank.

 

[SiC]

If it's been sitting for ages, the valves can gum up a bit and stick. If they're easy to get to, might be worth giving them a tap and seeing how well they move. 

[Jimblob]

Do check the fuel hose from tank (rubber Flexi) as that could be past best. Mine had a fuel filter near the offside front wheel, I've replaced that a couple of times (£2 generic item from motor factors). I was lucky enough not to have to touch fuel pump or carb (yet!).
Mine spluttered a lot before I got it running sweetly. Check for oil ingress in air filter housing, an issue to do with rubber bits perishing in the filler neck.

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk

[Lankytim]

21 minutes ago, Jimblob said:

Do check the fuel hose from tank (rubber Flexi) as that could be past best. Mine had a fuel filter near the offside front wheel, I've replaced that a couple of times (£2 generic item from motor factors). I was lucky enough not to have to touch fuel pump or carb (yet!).
Mine spluttered a lot before I got it running sweetly. Check for oil ingress in air filter housing, an issue to do with rubber bits perishing in the filler neck.

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk
 

I seem to remember swapping that rubber hose when I removed the fuel tank a year or so ago. It's still worth checking it again though. 

[grogee]

Wow sounds very much like progress! To quote Richard Pryor in Superman III: 

"...it WANTS to live!"

You are so close to having it running. I would have thought some new plugs and a carb de-gunk (plus decent fuel lines) ought to have it running.

[barrett]

So glad to see some progress with this after you nearly threw in the towel! I reckon you will have built up quite a bit of 'old car karma' for persevering, so hopefully it will reward you by not causing too much trouble when you actually get it going.

I'd deffo be running it off a can just to see if it will go for longer than a few seconds, but I'm mega impatient. Can't remember if these have a leccy fuel pump or just  a mechanical job like a 2cv, but if it's the latter they are a bit of a pig and do sometimes just fail without any warning.

Bon chance!

[dollywobbler]

Excellent! 2CV pumps don't like being left standing, so that could be the issue. Maybe see if fuel is at least getting as far as the pump?

I will add, both my 2CV and GSA tend to need a lot of cranking to pull fuel through after inactivity. A few days in the case of the 2CV, but two is enough to leave the GSA cranking like a Mini in the rain.

[Lankytim]

It’s been a busy weekend so I only managed an hour or so to tinker with the Visa. I decided to have a bit of a cleaning session, the carb was removed and the exterior was cleaned using a diesel/petrol mix to remove the worst of the grime, an airline was used to blow any crap out of the jets etc. It really could do with a strip and rebuild but I’ll have to get that done another day. The fuel pump was removed and cleaned out, using a hand pump used for testing the vacuum on Volvo engine mounts I was able to draw fuel from the tank via the under bonnet fuel lines. A load of crud and stale petrol came out followed by fresh clean pez. On reassembly I primed the system using the suction pump but alas fuel still doesn’t seem to be able to make it to the carb. Maybe the pump could do with replacement.  Pouring a drop of fuel into the carb gets the engine running but with the carb dry the engine soon splutters to a halt. 
 

Interestingly the manifold seems to have a  pinhole in the bottom which allows a certain amount of petrol to leak over the top of the engine should any fuel be poured directly into the carb. It’s like a self destruct mechanism should anyone dare abuse the engine in such a way. The engine gets covered with petrol and bursts into flame when you get a backfire through the inlet manifold. Not that it actually happened to me you understand… even I’m not that daft *

Darkness interrupted play and as I’m at work for the next few days it’ll be later next week before I can have another fettle with it. 

[SiC]

Sounds like excellent progress. As usual with old cars it's just like onions. You peel off one layer to then find another to deal with. Hopefully with a new pump/rebuild kit it'll be running again. 

Presumably the mojo has returned for it?

[Lankytim]

36 minutes ago, SiC said:

Presumably the mojo has returned for it?

It’s returned, but it’s more to do with a determination not to be beaten and to get it on the road rather than any love for the car. Sometimes I just resent the thing. Once I’m able to drive it I’m sure I’ll start to enjoy it as a quirky mode of transport. 

Progress has been painfully slow but every component I clean and every nut I tighten is  slowly moving things forward. I’ll get there in the end, although once the engine is running reliably I’ll have to move onto the brakes which hopefully should be easier to sort out. 

[SiC]

At least brakes is something easy enough to budget for it outsourced to a garage. Especially if all new cylinders and the like. 

[Jimblob]

All I can say is, I love mine! It's quirky and actually quite a competent little car. I love the sound it makes and that you have to rag it to make progress, the instrumentation, the simplicity of it in twin pot form, and its rarity. I would really love to own a 2CV but it would be more expensive to buy, less practical, less safe and probably more rusty.
Brakes: replace everything. Easily obtainable and not difficult. Definitely replace the front disc pads as being non servo, they need all the oomph possible. I found the old pads barely worked despite having loads of material left on them.

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk

[grogee]

Curse this northern European winter darkness! It prevents us from fixing all these beautiful* classics* like God has instructed us to do. 

But we will prevail. 

I'm interested in your pez/dizzle cleaning method - is that just to get very old dirt off?

[Lankytim]

4 hours ago, SiC said:

At least brakes is something easy enough to budget for it outsourced to a garage. Especially if all new cylinders and the like. 

I can do it all myself, it’s just the money I’m having to plough into it, who’d have thought a car parked in a hedge for 10 years would need so much work eh? 😂

3 hours ago, Jimblob said:

All I can say is, I love mine! It's quirky and actually quite a competent little car. I love the sound it makes and that you have to rag it to make progress, the instrumentation, the simplicity of it in twin pot form, and its rarity. I would really love to own a 2CV but it would be more expensive to buy, less practical, less safe and probably more rusty.
Brakes: replace everything. Easily obtainable and not difficult. Definitely replace the front disc pads as being non servo, they need all the oomph possible. I found the old pads barely worked despite having loads of material left on them.

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk
 

I can’t wait to get it on the road and see it make the transition from garden ornament to actual car. Fortunately it came with new discs and pads in the boot, the rear cylinders have already been replaced by me last year so it’s only really the front and the brake master cylinder which needs attention.  I was wondering if a servo from a different model would fit but then I’d need to drill a hole in the manifold for the vacuum pipe and I can’t see wheee one could go. 

3 hours ago, grogee said:

Curse this northern European winter darkness! It prevents us from fixing all these beautiful* classics* like God has instructed us to do. 

But we will prevail. 

I'm interested in your pez/dizzle cleaning method - is that just to get very old dirt off?

I’ve just got a tub of red diesel and dumped the petrol I’d sucked up from the tank into it making a manky petrol/gas oil solution. The only reason I used it to clean the outside of the carb was because it’s what I had handy. It did a reasonable job though! 

[Jimblob]

How are you getting on, Tim?

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk

[Lankytim]

3 hours ago, Jimblob said:

How are you getting on, Tim?

Sent from my SM-M315F using Tapatalk
 

I haven't had time to work on it recently but I have a few days off and hope to crack on over the weekend. 

[Lankytim]

I took a break from trying to burn the starter out again and turned my attention to the brake master cylinder. It leaks over the clutch pedal and looks mega manky. After sucking all the fluid out I removed the BMC, fluid reservoir and mounting bracket. The area the bracket is mounted is one of the worst looking areas of the car, there’s loads of corrosion. It was mostly caused by a rodents nest in the area, presumably the mouse piss helped to dissolve the vin plate too. The rust is just surface luckily so will hopefully respond well to some TLC.

The brake master cylinder was in a bit of a mess, the circlip was rusted in and only came out with a bit of force. Luckily the bore didn’t appear to be too bad, another stroke of luck was the Visa came with a master cylinder rebuild kit complete with a random receipt inside the box. Of course, when I dug it out I found it was for the later model with a 20mm bore rather than my early one which is 17mm odd. From what I’ve seen there’s two types, a cheap and plentiful one and another which is like rocking horse shite and is expensive. Remembering back I replaced the BMC on my Volvo as a rebuild kit didn’t work so It’ll probably be prudent to hunt down a new one anyway rather than fanny about trying to repair this one.

The mounting for the BMC looks like it can also accept the other more common sort with a servo, I’m still looking into the practicalities of doing this as it might work out cheaper, plus I’ll get assisted brakes. Does anybody have any ideas if the servo is shared with any more common models I can pilfer from a breakers? AX maybe? 
 

 

[grogee]

Is there a vacuum intake you can use for the servo or will you just fashion one on the intake manifold?

Servo brakes are probably a decent upgrade. Not that it's going very fast at the moment. 

We're all behind you though - keep up the shite work