invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[bobdisk]

Does "oil swivel pin" refer to the king pin?  "Grease" over to the left of drawing refers to left wheel bearing, under a cap.  "Grease" other side refers to right wheel bearing ??  It must have 2 bearings, one each side of the wheel centre line. Dont know how you would get the grease in there though. Is there an exploded drawing of that area?

[plasticvandan]

Did wonder if these used oilite bushes which are self lubricating,but seems unlikely to me.reliants have two nipples for the pin in the hub,must be some sort of lubrication point or would wear out very quickly 

[LightBulbFun]

9 hours ago, bobdisk said:

Does "oil swivel pin" refer to the king pin?  "Grease" over to the left of drawing refers to left wheel bearing, under a cap.  "Grease" other side refers to right wheel bearing ??  It must have 2 bearings, one each side of the wheel centre line. Dont know how you would get the grease in there though. Is there an exploded drawing of that area?

I am not sure tbh, in the lube chart it looks to be pointing to the end of the steering arm/ball joint or something along those lines, but then the work shop manual makes mention of a "steering swivel pin" is that another term for Kingpin? I admit im not entirely sure!

[plasticvandan]

Yes,swivel pin is kingpin

[Saabnut]

Kingpins delivered to Dunc and I have arranged to visit mid week to discuss grease nipples (oooh errr missus)

[Zelandeth]

On 28/03/2024 at 06:47, LightBulbFun said:

I think once Duncan has sufficent behind the handle bar time in REV he will find them to be unnecessary! I am told that once you get used to the pitching and rolling inherent to a 3 wheeler, you can chuck a Model 70 about with quite a bit of vigour 

(shame this one was filmed on a potato that was then mashed through god knows what compression software)

yeah sorry about the PM on Thursday, it was only after I sent it and started seeing NEC stuff fill my feed did I realise "oh yeah he is at the NEC this weekend!"

thats interesting, the Model 70 is wholly an AC design, especially the parallelogram leading arm front suspension, so in theory you can blame AC for that, unless Invacar went rouge! but I note that in the grease chart there is no mention of greasing the kingpin 

although I note there is something that looks be pointing to the back of the hub saying "grease" perhaps that is referring to the kingpin? the one below "oil swivel pin",

@Zelandeth does TPA have any grease points for her kingpin?

There's definitely one in the vicinity of the kingpin.  Can't remember exactly where off the top of my head - will try to take a look shortly to confirm. 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Saabnut said:

Kingpins delivered to Dunc and I have arranged to visit mid week to discuss grease nipples (oooh errr missus)

Oh Awesome!, hopefully it all goes back together well and the play/clonk is finally eradicated  Duncan also emailed me the other day to say the holed exhaust down-pipe has been suitable patched, so now she will REV-4-SIR quietly as it was sort of said  

[SiC]

Getting bloody everywhere these things 

Presumably it's under here

[High Jetter]

Ooo, frisky?

[LightBulbFun]

41 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Ooo, frisky?

Yeah I cant help but notice the colour its in, that seems all a bit too coincidental!

[High Jetter]

Bulk buy?

[LightBulbFun]

On 28/03/2024 at 18:32, plasticvandan said:

Did wonder if these used oilite bushes which are self lubricating,but seems unlikely to me.reliants have two nipples for the pin in the hub,must be some sort of lubrication point or would wear out very quickly 

I wonder if the lack of a grease nipple is because of these bushes? 

On 08/03/2024 at 13:33, LightBulbFun said:

it has now!  I got 3 of the kits, I mean REV has just the one kingpin, but just to be safe! 

looks like theres 2 bagged examples, 1 un-bagged example, which I notice has a bit of surface rust on some of the kingpin itself and the 2 shells, I dont know if thats fatal or not

but I still have the 2 bagged examples which look pretty clean to my eye  

 

for what its worth I noticed the 2 circular, shells(?) are stamped "FGT 10DU12" with the "G" being in a square box

I dont know if that means anything to anyone, but I thought i'd mention it (googling 10DU12 curiously does bring up similar looking parts)

 

 

On 08/03/2024 at 14:41, egg said:

As you say googling suggests their are alternately called bearings, spacers and bushes!

Edit:

Bushing bearings, also known as dry bearings or DU bearings, belong to a Bushing series, and are a type of sliding bearing known for their excellent self-lubricating properties. 

 

[AdgeCutler]

It's Craftmaster Ministry of health blue, Craftmaster matched the colour from a sample I sent in from Brian. It's good to see that their efforts have sold them more paint than just for Brian alone.

[Mr Pastry]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I wonder if the lack of a grease nipple is because of these bushes?

Sintered bronze bushes, which are porous and will retain grease or oil.   Very common in all sorts of machinery, but perhaps a bit marginal for something as heavily loaded as a kingpin.  They will almost certainly last longer if greased regularly, so it's well worth adding some grease nipples if possible IMO.

 

[SiC]

46 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

It's Craftmaster Ministry of health blue, Craftmaster matched the colour from a sample I sent in from Brian. It's good to see that their efforts have sold them more paint than just for Brian alone.

I can provide a few more pixels of that area from my original. 

 

Is this a car that is known on here?

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, SiC said:

Is this a car that is known on here?

indeed it is, its one of the Ex Oddingley cars, same place @AdgeCutler's Mk12E came from  

(there where 4 Mk12E's and 1 Mk12D)

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Sintered bronze bushes, which are porous and will retain grease or oil.   Very common in all sorts of machinery, but perhaps a bit marginal for something as heavily loaded as a kingpin.  They will almost certainly last longer if greased regularly, so it's well worth adding some grease nipples if possible IMO.

sorry im a touch confused, that sounds like your describing what @plasticvandan described, which was just a suggestion to what might be present

 

but what im asking is if these 2 circular thingies right of the kingpin and below the Tippen & Sons logo, are the reason theres no kingpin grease point

they dont look like oilite bushes to me but perhaps I am mistaken?

 

googling the part number stamped on them brings up pages like this

https://www.hendersonbearings.co.uk/10du12-5-8x23-32x3-4-bush-brand-neutral.html

 

im just trying to understand here what exactly they where thinking, how it all goes together/the reason the way it is  

 

[Zelandeth]

Photo showing the grease point which serves the kingpin and/or inner wheel bearing/suspension swivel on TPA.

Note to self: chisel some of the 51 years of accumulated grease off there at some point...

[Mr Pastry]

21 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

sorry im a touch confused, that sounds like your describing what @plasticvandan described, which was just a suggestion to what might be present

 

but what im asking is if these circular thingies, are the reason theres no kingpin grease point

they dont look like oilite bushes to me but perhaps I am mistaken?

 

googling the part number stamped on them brings up pages like this

https://www.hendersonbearings.co.uk/10du12-5-8x23-32x3-4-bush-brand-neutral.html

 

im just trying to understand here what exactly they where thinking, how it all goes together/the reason the way it is  

 

Not sure I understand the question - the bushes you have linked to look like a modern equivalent to me - though would not be PTFE lined in the olden days, nor would you necessarily want that.   AC probably took the view that the bushes could be changed fairly easily when worn, so did not bother with grease nipples.  Of course the pin wears as well, so usually you would  change the whole lot.   Different situation on some vehicles where the bushes are undersized and have to be reamed to fit.

The grease nipple Zel has arrowed appears to be on a suspension pivot rather than the kingpin.  To provide grease to the kingpins you would have to drill and tap the housing level with the centre of each bush to accept the nipples, and drill a mating hole through the bush itself so that the grease gets in between the pin and the bush.   Not telling your man how to do the job - I am sure he knows that. 

 

[LightBulbFun]

23 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Not sure I understand the question - the bushes you have linked to look like a modern equivalent to me - though would not be PTFE lined in the olden days, nor would you necessarily want that.   AC probably took the view that the bushes could be changed fairly easily when worn, so did not bother with grease nipples.  Of course the pin wears as well, so usually you would  change the whole lot.   Different situation on some vehicles where the bushes are undersized and have to be reamed to fit.

The grease nipple Zel has arrowed appears to be on a suspension pivot rather than the kingpin.  To provide grease to the kingpins you would have to drill and tap the housing level with the centre of each bush to accept the nipples, and drill a mating hole through the bush itself so that the grease gets in between the pin and the bush.   Not telling your man how to do the job - I am sure he knows that. 

 

interesting  I appreciate you taking the time out to explain it to me!  do you know what they would of been comprised of back in the day? I was just going off whats marked on the bush itself

hopefully its clear enough in the picture (I have just slid them both onto the kingpin for safe keeping) to my eye it looks to be marked 10DU12 and the inside is lined with some sort of black material

 

in regards to drilling a hole for a grease nipple, what would stop the bush from rotating and the holes falling out of line? is the bush supposed to be a really tight friction fit inside its housing or is it stopped from rotating by other means? 

again please dont take this as a me doubting you or anything such like being weirdly against grease nipples, im just trying to understand the process so to speak  

[Mr Pastry]

Interesting that your bushes are lined with something - maybe PTFE, perhaps that goes back further than I thought.  Is that rust on the outside suggesting steel?  Traditionally just sintered bronze, or sometimes a steel outer sleeve with a bronze inner.  Though FWIW the 2CV has plain steel kingpin bushes.

The bush is (or should be) a tight press fit in the housing, which is enough to stop it rotating.  Then the kingpin is a running fit inside that.  So it all has to be made to fine tolerances, and pattern parts are not always, which can be very frustrating.

[LightBulbFun]

47 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Interesting that your bushes are lined with something - maybe PTFE, perhaps that goes back further than I thought.  Is that rust on the outside suggesting steel?  Traditionally just sintered bronze, or sometimes a steel outer sleeve with a bronze inner.  Though FWIW the 2CV has plain steel kingpin bushes.

The bush is (or should be) a tight press fit in the housing, which is enough to stop it rotating.  Then the kingpin is a running fit inside that.  So it all has to be made to fine tolerances, and pattern parts are not always, which can be very frustrating.

interesting! the inside surface seems to be darker then the outside surface, but perhaps thats just a surface treatment thing rather then a lining? heres a close up picture if it tells you anything, the fact there seems to be rust staining on the inside would perhaps suggest perhaps actually no lining? but again im not very familiar with these sorts of things!

 

(everyone likes a close up picture of a bush anyways right? *ahem* )

they slide up-n-down freely on the kingpin when I place em there, with only a little bit of side to side wiggle, and indeed they appear to be made of something ferrous, they are magnetic and and as above have the odd rust spot

(dont worry the 2 kingpin sets I sent up to Saabnut, are in much better shape! I received 3 sets, 2 bagged and 1 un-bagged, so I sent the 2 bagged ones up as an heir and a spare, and kept the un-bagged example for myself to have as a reference piece)

 

[Mr Pastry]

Ah they do just look like steel with maybe some sort of lining or plating - deffo needs grease.  It's a split bush, so it will tighten up when pressed into the housing which is a slightly smaller diameter.  All being well, that will give you the close running fit on the kingpin.  

[LightBulbFun]

24 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Ah they do just look like steel with maybe some sort of lining or plating - deffo needs grease.  It's a split bush, so it will tighten up when pressed into the housing which is a slightly smaller diameter.  All being well, that will give you the close running fit on the kingpin.  

interesting! again I do appreciate you taking out the time to explain it to me

 

further to that the chap who very kindly supplied me with the kingpin sets, who has also been following the whole kingpin saga with some interest, has just dropped me a message with the following 

Quote

Concerning the grease nipple discussion… Do the attached images help at all? I observed in one of my NOS items that there is a 1/8 diameter hole (countersunk and not threaded) which may be part of the grease (sans nipple) solution?

[Mr Pastry]

The countersunk hole looks to me like a machining centre - used to locate the part on a lathe during manufacture.  Since the kingpin is solid (they are not always) you could not really put the grease nipple there, and access wouldn't be easy.   I'll see if I can find an appropriate picture.

[Mr Pastry]

[Mr Pastry]

Just for interest, here is the setup on a 2CV.  It all has to fit under the driveshaft.  Grease nipple at the lower end of the housing, which has a plug to stop everything falling out, then the bushes are solid, not split.  The kingpin is hollow so the grease goes up the middle, then out through the small holes.  The pin is a driving fit in the suspension arm, so it really has to fit properly, and a BFO hammer and a Special Tool are usually required.  Whereas on Mod 70 and others the kingpin is retained with a cotter pin, similar to an old school bicycle crank.

Do not ever get involved in working on any of this kind of stuff.  It's horrible.

[Snake Charmer]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

interesting  I appreciate you taking the time out to explain it to me!  do you know what they would of been comprised of back in the day? I was just going off whats marked on the bush itself

hopefully its clear enough in the picture (I have just slid them both onto the kingpin for safe keeping) to my eye it looks to be marked 10DU12 and the inside is lined with some sort of black material

 

in regards to drilling a hole for a grease nipple, what would stop the bush from rotating and the holes falling out of line? is the bush supposed to be a really tight friction fit inside its housing or is it stopped from rotating by other means? 

again please dont take this as a me doubting you or anything such like being weirdly against grease nipples, im just trying to understand the process so to speak  

10DU12 is a standard engineering split bush glacier bearing so don't worry about replacing them in future, the kingpin would be a little more problematic but you have spares. The upright forging would probably be on the endangered unobtanium list. 

[LightBulbFun]

@Mr Pastry thank you for the lat few posts on the workings of things, I will admit I have been struggling to visualise how REV's front kingpin/hub assembly all goes together and your posts very much have been most helpful in that regard, I realise the whole thing just goes together and works like like one giant oversized hinge pin   in that you got your statically mounted centre "ear" and 2 outer mobile ears that are mounted to whatever has to move, and a pin down the middle holding it all together/that everything rides on

the one thing I am still a bit unsure about is why does the Model 70 kingpin have flat milled into it do you know what purpose that might serve?

 

ill tag @dollywobbler so you dont have to suffer alone when it comes to 2CV grease points and kingpins  

[Mr Pastry]

 The flat is where the cotter pin goes.  The kingpin is fitted with the flat aligned with the horizontal hole in the static "ear."  The cotter pin fits in that hole and has a corresponding tapered flat on it, so when tightened it wedges the kingpin in place.   Cotter pin thus:

The square black things in the kingpin kit are thrust washers and fit between the static and moving ears, above and below.  If you think about it, the weight of the front end of the car is resting on the lower one.