invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

  On 27/10/2022 at 11:08, Zelandeth said:

I did manage to bag the better looking gearbox for £30 though.  That was the only thing that went for sensible money I saw.  

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Just wondering, did this get picked up in the end? 

I am curious on two fronts: a while back me and Adam discovered the gearboxes do actually have numbers, so I am curious if you can see any on this one while you have it bare? (the locations of said numbers seem to a bit inconsistent however so I cant really state an exact area to search sadly)

 

but also, im thinking, I know @dollywobbler is planning a restoration on TWC soon, and given the sad state his gearbox/diff is in, this might be worth flogging to him?  

unless you want to keep it as a spare for TPA which is understandable 

 

(as an aside to all this I am still curious to know if TPA's original transaxle is serviceable or not, last I heard it was stuck in gear, but they are such simple units, I am quite curious to know whats up with that)

 

I was just thinking about it at 4AM as you do....

[bobdisk]

Watch  "Antiques Road Trip"  on BBC1, tomorrow, Tuesday,  at  15:45!   Antiques expert Natasha Raskin-Sharp  is driving a Model 70 for the program!!!  Its VJN960S. Do you recognise it, @LightBulbFun  ?

Also on BBC iPlayer.  Starting with Simon and an Argson at 10:19

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001t4bm/antiques-road-trip-series-27-17-ishy-khan-and-natasha-raskin-sharp-day-2?page=1

[LightBulbFun]

  On 04/12/2023 at 16:36, bobdisk said:

Watch  "Antiques Road Trip"  on BBC1, tomorrow, Tuesday,  at  15:45!   Antiques expert Natasha Raskin-Sharp  is driving a Model 70 for the program!!!  Its VJN960S. Do you recognise it, @LightBulbFun  ?

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I will certainly do, and indeed I know that machine well  this filming, is actually something I have been aware of for some time, me and Adam have been wondering if it would actually ever come to light! 

I just wonder how much will get shown, and how many facts and figures they will get right or wrong! I am bit grumpy with simon that he never took the time out to  consult with me on it, but thankfully Adam did his best to run what he could past me so I could fact check some of it!

so hopefully I wont be cringing too hard LOL

 

as everyone here I am sure knows how much of a stickler I am for the facts figures and fine details!

 

EDIT: looks like its on BBC iPlayer today even?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001t4bm/antiques-road-trip-series-27-17-ishy-khan-and-natasha-raskin-sharp-day-2

[LightBulbFun]

ahhhh never mind, I watched it, and you know what they say when you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all?

well I say at least, Adam's part was good, I like his the demonstration of the sliding seat, and Natasha seemed to understand them pretty well, but the rest...

and its pretty clear the narrator/research team literally only just consulted wikipedia...

 

something I would love to do with @dollywobbler or such at some point is a big old Q&A/Myth busting session on all things Invacar, just to basically try and set the record straight 

[st185cs]

  On 04/12/2023 at 17:20, LightBulbFun said:

ahhhh never mind, I watched it, and you know what they say when you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all?

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Maybe to help educate, you might consider doing a basic myth busting/fact check type list which follows the sequence of mistakes within the piece. I for one would value this as might others who don’t know everything. I’d also, with your blessing, use it alongside sharing the iPlayer link with others. 

[egg]

Natasha in an Invacar

[LightBulbFun]

  On 05/12/2023 at 08:22, st185cs said:

Maybe to help educate, you might consider doing a basic myth busting/fact check type list which follows the sequence of mistakes within the piece. I for one would value this as might others who don’t know everything. I’d also, with your blessing, use it alongside sharing the iPlayer link with others. 

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Oh! I already did that with @Zelandeth  

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/index.htm

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/FAQ/faq.htm

its a really good resource for getting someone up to speed with the Model 70 especially, and I am really thankful to Zel, for giving me the chance to fact check it/go over the script before it was published and get it into shape, not that I had to do too much, Zel does know his onions well  

 

[bobdisk]

Looks like you didnt reckon much of this programme!

[LightBulbFun]

  On 05/12/2023 at 14:28, bobdisk said:

Looks like you didnt reckon much of this programme!

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not the first half of the segment anyhow! the second section with Adam demonstrating the sliding seat, I liked that very much

I thought that was a really good idea its a good feature of the Model 70, to quickly show off to the camera, just the sort features they had to make life for the disabled easier, so I give praise to Adam for that,

and then when Natasha took VJN for a drive it was nice to hear from her comments, that despite the false information that Simon was saying about the Model 70, she did seem to understand what the Model 70 was about and how for a disabled person back in the day it would of meant a world of freedom

so it was nice to hear her talk about those positive things, rather then just focusing on negative and less then factually correct things that Simon (and the narrator) was going on about

[Eyersey1234]

This came up on my Facebook feed @LightBulbFun

[st185cs]

  On 05/12/2023 at 13:45, LightBulbFun said:

Oh! I already did that with @Zelandeth  

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/index.htm

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/FAQ/faq.htm

its a really good resource for getting someone up to speed with the Model 70 especially, and I am really thankful to Zel, for giving me the chance to fact check it/go over the script before it was published and get it into shape, not that I had to do too much, Zel does know his onions well  

 

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Thanks Dez (and Zel🙏) that is really helpful. 
Do you happen to know how the Graham Hill story played out?  I think I read somewhere that he made representations to Parliament and is noted in Hansard. I’d love to know the truth and how his campaign either had some/no influence or hit the buffers. 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 05/12/2023 at 23:16, st185cs said:

Thanks Dez (and Zel🙏) that is really helpful. 
Do you happen to know how the Graham Hill story played out?  I think I read somewhere that he made representations to Parliament and is noted in Hansard. I’d love to know the truth and how his campaign either had some/no influence or hit the buffers. 

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No problems Im glad you find it helpful  

Graham Hill is mentioned in various Hansard reports of the time, but just as part of the general campaign against the vehicles, Graham Hill's own story with regards to the Model 70 is kind of completely irrelevant as the vehicle he had the use of during his brief period disability, was an AC Acedes Mk15 Model 67

which apart from looking like a Model 70, is a completely different machine, so is not a fair comparison, but of course none of this is never mentioned, although you do get clues to it

and there are various period reports like this both in Hansard and in general, where they are talking about the Model 70, but the machine they are describing is clearly not a Model 70 LOL

as for his campaign, it (and the campaign against the machines in general) was very much was a vocal minority and the media running away with things sadly. Invacars where *the* thing to hate and cause controversy on in the 1970's

when it was announced in 1976, that the scheme was closing, and that by 1981, all invalid vehicles would be withdrawn from service

there where big protests in favour of the tricycle, by the silent majority who suddenly realised they where in real danger of losing their mobility, and thus the 1981 date was scrapped, and it was only in 1998 that an end date of the 31st of March 2003 was finally laid down

 

[st185cs]

I wonder if the old Which report is available, same too with the Cranfield Institute’s report of their ‘independent test’ under a FOI request?

I also wonder what % of such ‘trikes’ on the road at the time only had ‘one door’. I’m sure we’ll never know and isn’t a surprising assertion in and around the hype at the time. 

ps - we need to reenact those demo pics one day!

[Eyersey1234]

@LightBulbFun apologies if this has been answered in the thread already, were the Model 70s or any other invalid vehicle crash tested? If so how did they compare to say a Mini of the time?

[LightBulbFun]

  On 06/12/2023 at 12:36, st185cs said:

I wonder if the old Which report is available, same too with the Cranfield Institute’s report of their ‘independent test’ under a FOI request?

I also wonder what % of such ‘trikes’ on the road at the time only had ‘one door’. I’m sure we’ll never know and isn’t a surprising assertion in and around the hype at the time. 

ps - we need to reenact those demo pics one day!

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For April 1st 1974, For England only, 12459  Villiers (aka single door) machines where insured for road use vs 5643 Model 70's (and 1749 Electric machines)

its worth noting that these numbers would drastically shift over time, by the early 1980's most Villiers machine where off the road, and only Model 70's remained, which they produced a total 18150 of (this number includes the 1970, 20 User-trial prototype Model 70's, because the Ministry left those on issue and counted them like any other Model 70)

for example for Scotland between the 1st of October 1975-31st of March 1976, only 585 Villiers machines where on issue vs 1187 Model 70's (and 36 Electric Machines) 

its worth noting with the Electric machines, although most would of been single door machines, a fair number of Stanley Argsons where in service still at the time, which have no doors

  On 06/12/2023 at 13:26, Eyersey1234 said:

@LightBulbFun apologies if this has been answered in the thread already, were the Model 70s or any other invalid vehicle crash tested? If so how did they compare to say a Mini of the time?

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Yes the Model 70 was throughly tested by MIRA including several crash tests, from what I have read the results where considered comparable to other small cars of the time, in-fact this is why the MIRA reports never got published in full, as they contained comparisons to regular cars which the companies that produced those regular cars did not want published, guess they dont want to be made looked bad by an Invacar?  

data from these crash tests was used to improve the safety of the Model 70 throughout its production run, for example Model Model 70's from Mid 1974 onwards especially where compliant with the EC 30Mph frontal impact crash regulations of the time with beefed up chassis members front and rear and later machines even had a rollover bar to protect the occupants in the event of a rollover crash, something I hasten to add, that not many cars of the 1970's or even 1980's had! and not to mention that every Invalid vehicle issued by the ministry since the 1960's came with a fire extinguisher as standard safety equipment, again thats something you even get on modern cars I dont think?

the only major deficiency identified in the crash tests with the Model 70 was that at the time (1973) machines had a fuel tank with welded tangs on them that would be bolted to the chassis, and in a crash as things deformed it could rip the tank open, and obviously the last thing you want is petrol sloshing around a crash site.

so the Ministry quickly developed a revised fuel tank mounting system using straps instead of tangs, and this was retrofitted to all machines, and an issue was also noted with the dash mounted gear change with regards to the controls of the machine and driver coming into contact with each other in a crash, and again the ministry quickly revised this setup to a floor mounted gear change and retrofitted all previous machines also

I also know the Ministry in the mid 1970's was looking at collapsable steering columns, but I dont know what became of this, steering wheel Model 70's are very rare, so the details pictures I have of them are limited, and the one detailed picture I do have of such a machine, is one fitted with all hand controls (hand throttle and brake) so has lots of other gubbins which are clearly not very collapsable! 

[Eyersey1234]

Thanks LBF

[Christine]

It was passed  ok for frontal impacts,  as the  crash test dummy driver  didn't have any legs   .... 

[Christine]

Never done a link on a tablet , will it work ? Banned ! 

 

Gone for a decade: The invalid carriage - BBC News ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-23061676

[Zelandeth]

Little box of Invacar related things turned up today following an email from a reader of my website who was clearing some bits and pieces of their father's estate.

One was a copy of the workshop manual, which I think is the same as the one we have scanned, though I've not had a chance to go through it in detail yet.

What really caught my eye though was this.

Which appears to be the handbook handed out to users in the Model 70 era.

Personally I've not seen this booklet before.  I've spotted a few of the workshop manuals floating around on eBay now and then, I imagine they were pretty obvious trophies to take home when the service centres closed down.  I've not come across the handbook before though.

This one you're aware of being in the library so to speak, LBF?

[LightBulbFun]

@Zelandeth fascinating! I have come across a few Model 70 Users handbooks in my time, I have never seen a workshop manual on ebay tho do let me know if you ever see any more!, will be interesting to see what this workshop manual does contain if theres any extra notes/edits/additions

 

and with regards to that, the real interesting one to keep an eye out for is the DHSS Spare parts list for invalid three wheelers, each time I have seen one they have always been unique containing different letters and machines missing from others etc (but I have never seen any on ebay)

one that I got a little while back still had its Model 60 Barrett Midget section, which has obviously come in quite handy for Stuart's Model 60 

 

but, the users handbook for the Model 70 is normally coloured Yellow, I have a copy (among a few others) I have been meaning to get to you for scanning etc

you can see more of this one in the link below

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/177/#comment-2220849

but I have *never* seen one coloured red before which is really curious! the only red book was the well what you have the notes to for users book, which should contain notes for the user, general info like what do if you have an accident, or if you want to go abroad with the machine, things like that

do's and do' nots etc

I have never seen a physical copy tho, only read about it, from people who had machines back in the day and conversations with Stuart

 

but its strange to see it open to a forward of the Model 70, that just looks like the yellow book to me, Weird, i'd love to see more  

[Zelandeth]

Intriguing. As always seems to be the case with these!  

I'll make a point of getting it scanned in as soon as I get a chance.

[Remspoor]

Photo time. No idea where this is or year.

[ETCHY]

  On 07/12/2023 at 18:53, Remspoor said:

Photo time. No idea where this is or year.

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I think that's Preston.

[High Jetter]

  On 07/12/2023 at 18:53, Remspoor said:

Photo time. No idea where this is or year.

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It's after 1862, when H. Samuel started. HB Viva, BMW 2002, some 3-wheeler...

[LightBulbFun]

  On 07/12/2023 at 18:53, Remspoor said:

Photo time. No idea where this is or year.

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heres my write up from a few pages back (P337)  

 

  On 30/10/2023 at 02:05, LightBulbFun said:

  On 29/10/2023 at 22:48, Mrs6C said:

Another early Mk12...
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/1068338342832099346/

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actually for a two tone Mk12, a late one, very late  the picture aint the highest resolution, (sadly the original source URL seems to be broken, so extracting the cached image from pinterest is the best I can do)

 

but it looks like its part of the TTW101E-TTW200E block of Invacar Mk12c's notable as containing the final run of Peacock blue and white cars, official Invacar photos show TTW179E was two tone, but TTW184E was already all-over ribbon blue

the TTW-E block is also thought to be the first block in which Invacar used Tippers number plates

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which would date the picture to no earlier then about Mid 1967

[Six-cylinder]

Viva HC means it was 1970 onwards.

[Christine]

20 past 12 .   Got to be a Saturday afternoon , too busy and too many men  for a weekday. Men will be at  work on weekdays  ...  Its definitly not a wednesday afternoon , or a Sunday , and one of the cooler months .

[egg]

Brief shot of hand powered carriage in 1970 in this film at 1:07

[LightBulbFun]

  On 11/12/2023 at 21:52, egg said:

  On 11/12/2023 at 20:41, D.E said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186205318010?hash=item2b5ab3ab7a:g:RnkAAOSwRydld1TC

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@LightBulbFunto the ICR phone please. Last taxed 1981. On DVLA....

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Oh very cool! UPA224 is said to be the very last Stanley Argson in Ministry service, only withdrawn from Service at the end of the Invalid vehicle service in, 2003, story goes Lady who was its user, just used it around her smallholding for the most part, and it ended up dropping off the radar, until the 2003 when the Ministry was doing a check of remaining users and machines and it got unearthed again, although I do have to wonder, assuming it dropped off the radar in 1981 when its tax was last renewed, would the batteries really have lasted that long even if charged regularly/looked after well, thats 22 years! 

even tho I do have some pictures of UPA224 from when it was last put on the open market, the rebuild plaque is really quite interesting not seen that before! 

I wonder what the extent of the rebuilding was...

 

it certainly was a long service machine, note how its got a 12 inch Dunlop LP 591 front wheel, they where only fitted to Argons in the 70's and 80's when the wire wheels and tyres became tricky to source/service, some argsons like VPH48 got them all round!

 

@brummiejon this would make for an excellent stable mate to Flo  

I would take a punt at it myself, but I dont have anywhere to keep such a machine sadly, which is a shame because it would be ideal for doing local trips where REV would not get a chance to warm up properly, like runs to the post office or chippy! 

(I think its a bit big to keep in the back of a black cab!)

 

[egg]

It would amaze people to know that was a 'government approved' vehicle up until 2003! I assume the people who re-built it would be an approved repairer workshop?