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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...


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5 minutes ago, Jim Bergerac said:

You seem to have a bit of resentment here towards the Model 70 people going by this comment and your goading of LBF for not backing you up. 

Is the Invacare Carriage community heading for a People's Judean Front style split?

I've had a model 70 before myself and loved it, I'm sick of the clickyness, and abuse especially when it comes to invalid carriage owners and users, as for your second paragraph, invacare? Cheap joke.... 

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1 minute ago, Jerzy Woking said:

I will ask, but am pretty confident that you will not reply.

Which experts (your word, not theirs) are wrong, and why? 

Happy to reply to a genuine comment, there are many 'experts' here.....  Example,  invalid carriage, e.g. Argsons, their nearest equivalent is a modern class three mobility scooter, they are not 'vehicles' as such legally they are not required to display a number plate or have insurance, although I do have both on mine, as it's good practice, but @brummiejonhas been hung, drawn and quartered by people here who know, nothing about nothing, as have I......

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On 12/08/2023 at 10:16, sierraman said:

I don’t get the dislike for them to be honest, I remember one being near us, an amputee lady that lived in the flats had one. It’s probably easy to look back and think that it probably objectified disabled people in this blue contraption but I suppose at the time it gave a lot of people freedom they wouldn’t otherwise have had as there was no motobility schemes until the late 70’s. Obviously at the time they acquired a lot of unpleasant nicknames but that was probably reflective of peoples attitudes at the time.

On 12/08/2023 at 13:51, Dobloseven said:

Another thing to remember is if you didn't have an Invacar, what would you drive. Seventies cars weren't easy to drive by todays standards. Power steering and autoboxes were rare except for big motors. Even servo brakes were by no means a given. LBF pointed out a while back, that a Model 70 could possibly be driven by someone with only one hand. Also the matter of access. With a high seat and access from both sides plus sliding doors a wheelchair user could get in and pull their chair in after themselves. Plus you got to get behind the goal at the football!Imagine a pitch full of Motability Kia Sportages. Seriously, for their time they were a vehicle for a very specific job. A while back I did a job for a young, severely disabled guy. He answered the door in his electric wheelchair he controlled with a joystick. He seemed to have a live in carer. Told me he was studying Politics at university and hoped to become a journalist. When I left, I noticed a VW T5 or 6 window van outside. Something made me look inside. The interior was completely devoid of seats, apart from the front passenger one. No apparent controls, steering wheel etc. Seems the rear doors would open, a ramp emerge, Thunderbirds style. He'd drive the wheechair in to the driving position, clamps would grip it to the floor, a seat belt wrap round him automatically and he'd drive it with a computer game style joystick about where the electric mirror controls would be. Imagine something like that in the sixties or seventies. 

On 13/08/2023 at 09:28, ETCHY said:

I always believed tbe idea behind the Invacar was a very decent one. Basically if you have no legs / aren't mobile the government will provide for you in  the form of an Invacar.  Looked at by the standards of the time, for a government to invest that much time effort & money in the scheme is very laudable.

On 12/08/2023 at 09:46, SiC said:

 

Best thing, imo, is for it to be restored as a museum exhibit. I know there is a lot hatred for them on here but they are part of our national history, good and bad. There isn't many in museums at all.

Mrs SiC great grandfather had one after he was severely injured in a bicycle accident with a bus when he was off to work (he was a sign painter). Anyway he put an extra seat in there for passengers. My wife's nan took a ride in the Invacar it to get back home quicker as she had to sort out some ill aunt the other side of town. Except on the journey the police passed them. She ended up getting arrested after they were caught red handed. They let her go on a warning after her story passed true that her aunt was ill and she needed to get back to her kids. No doubt knowing Mrs SiC nan, she probably giving the police some jip too and caused her being arrested. 🤣

Anyway I'm sure there are many stories out there on them and they are very much part of our social history that many can relate to. Museums have the advantage of many people getting to see and experience them. Also gets over an issues about trying to get it re-registered and the like. 

 

it is nice to see that people DO actually understand what the Invacar was all about! and just how much of a life line it was to so many people

its one of things that, to this day I still dont think ever had a proper replacement, and I do still think there would be a market for a such vehicle even in todays day and age

in the same way there still is a market for Microcars, with the Electric Citroen Ami etc

 

I think that a vehicle which is designed from the ground up specifically for disabled people, and adaptable to the widest range of disabilities, like the Model 70 was, would be something that some people would quite appreciate to have

something bigger/faster/safer then a Mobility scooter, but not some massive modern car thats PITA to get around town in etc 

 

you could say I am saying Bring back Invacars,  but I would like to clarify, not like how you see it on facebook with the idiots who go "oh how dare someone get a free Range Rover, we should bring back Invacars because how dare disabled people get something nice"

I think the Motability scheme is a great thing, and should never be "gotten rid of" but I also do think that there would still be a market for something like a modern version of the Model 70, in addition to the Motability scheme

especially because a lot dont realise it, but a Motability car does cost the user money,  it is not provided "free of charge" like the aforementioned facebook idiots think it is, it takes your Mobility component of PIP away from you to pay for the vehicle in question (and if you do decide you want something a bit fancy you have to pay the upfront difference), all it really is just a very fancy 3 year lease, and not everyone might be able to afford losing that part of their disability  benefit in exchange for a set of wheels

where as the Invacar, was provided completely free of charge, and you even got *paid* a petrol allowance, they really where just like any other bit of NHS of kit handed out for *free* to help disabled a person mobilise, like an artificial limb or wheelchair is handed out

and nothing says that more then in the fact that to get an Invacar, you would simply go to your GP about it, who would get the ball rolling for it, in the same way if you get your leg blown off and needed an artificial one, again your GP would help sort that out

and likewise, you would pickup your Invacar, like your artificial limb, from an ALAC, Artificial limb and Appliance centre 

 

and I bring this up, because, we simply dont have anything like that anymore! and I think thats a shame

I am not saying bring back the Model 70 as it was, but I am saying I think its a shame the whole "invalid vehicle scheme" itself got so badly rubbished and axed

 

in some regards we really have gone full circle there as as an adapted Citroen Ami was shown off fairly recently!

https://insideevs.com/news/671175/citroen-ami-for-all-disabled-conversion/

a small blue car with seating for 1 and a space to stow a wheel chair and made out of plastic, now why does that sound so familiar! 

 

and yet its funny how the Invacar does get so much shit chucked at it, but people seem to be relatively fine with the above, when really they aint that different!

as is said before "there's nowt so queer as folk" :) but again its nice to see that people do recognise the Invacar for the good that it was, that is nice to see :) 

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17 minutes ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Happy to reply to a genuine comment, there are many 'experts' here.....  Example,  invalid carriage, e.g. Argsons, their nearest equivalent is a modern class three mobility scooter, they are not 'vehicles' as such legally they are not required to display a number plate or have insurance, although I do have both on mine, as it's good practice, but @brummiejonhas been hung, drawn and quartered by people here who know, nothing about nothing, as have I......

Like you said, Mobility scooters are registered as such. This is because they've gone through type approval and certified as such. To gain this TA, it requires certain things to pass - such as restricting to 8mph and a 4mph "pedestrian area" mode. 

I don't see brummiejon Stanley being mentioned having any of that? Ignoring the speed restrictions and approvals, it's not even currently registered according to his own words. 

So right now it's in the same class as an E-Scooter. It's a vehicle that requires full insurance to be on the road and also be road registered. Except no one will provide insurance as it's not even registered with the DVLA. Just like an E-Scooter bought from eBay. 

So it's both illegal and very inconsiderate it being used on any public road, footpath or land. 

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10 minutes ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Happy to reply to a genuine comment, there are many 'experts' here.....  Example,  invalid carriage, e.g. Argsons, their nearest equivalent is a modern class three mobility scooter, they are not 'vehicles' as such legally they are not required to display a number plate or have insurance, although I do have both on mine, as it's good practice, but @brummiejonhas been hung, drawn and quartered by people here who know, nothing about nothing, as have I......

Don't talk utter tripe - that's not why he was 'hung, drawn and quartered by people here who know, nothing about nothing,' 

He drove a unregistered, uninsured vehicle on the Kings Highway - that's what he was called out on.  Bleating about the DVLA et al because they won't magically move a vehicle from an defunct classification to one that suits you is pointless - get it registered and insured or shut up.

 

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11 minutes ago, SiC said:

So it's both illegal and very inconsiderate it being used on any public road, footpath or land. 

Which is in not so many words what BJ initially stated off his own back starting all of this and has since turned into all this because he amongst others didn’t like being called out for it. What was expected was that everyone would be on the same page as him yet it turns out we don’t all share the opinion that because DVLA won’t help, it’s fine to break the law. 
 

What I still don’t understand is why some people even now seem to be justifying it and trying to pull the ‘it doesn’t need the registration/insurance/RFL” and whatnot, but I guarantee are the same people that moan about kids riding round on escooters and e-bikes, which as has already been confirmed, are also illegal in the same way as BJ’s vehicle is.

 

Notice how even @LightBulbFunhasnt backed people up on the matter of BJ being legal?  And  with the utmost respect, Dez is the resident wizard on this type of thing.

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37 minutes ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

I've had a model 70 before myself and loved it, I'm sick of the clickyness, and abuse especially when it comes to invalid carriage owners and users, as for your second paragraph, invacare? Cheap joke.... 

Literally every forum or group based on a collective interest is clicky - with very few (dare I say, no) exceptions. Autoshite isn't immune. 

There are plenty of good people here who just let people get on with their builds / cars / stuff and contribute where they want to. if they don't like something they'll just not comment and move on with their lives - but there is an equal amount of people that will endlessly push their view of what is right and cry bloody murder when they see any car on non standard wheels because OmG iTs RuInEd 4eVa HaLp PrIsOn PlS and its tiresome.

Everywhere is like it. Humans are generally a bit crappy.

There is a reason I don't have an Autoshite sticker on any of my cars, and its the same reason I'm not an active member of any clubs, groups, owners clubs, communities - as they're all clicky and hierarchical. It's pathetic. 

The whole car scene is, always has been and always will be a massive dick swinging and pissing contest. The whole human race is built that way.

It's why I just started buying cars I like and doing shit in my own time because I got fed up of every tom dick and harry commenting on how they'd do it differently. I just want to share an interest with like minded people, not be berated for it. I generally share my car escapades with a couple close friends and my other half as I know they'll be respectful of whatever I'm doing - and that's what I want. I also put stuff on here as I mostly get the same. 

People can't just live by the "if you have nothing nice to say, move on" rule because MuH FrEe SpEeCh. Free speech is freedom to *say* anything - not immunity to the ramifications of what you've said.

Long story short - AS is a very loosely formed car club. All car clubs are full of some amount of clicky "senior" members who have a hard on for their own views as they've been a member for X time and that miniscule amount of respect goes to their head and eclipses their ability to not be a knobhead.

If anyone is on a car forum and has a problem with people posting about a car - maybe they need to get a grip, sort their control issues, go sit in the bath and have a magnum.

Relax. It's just a website. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, red5 said:

 Bleating about the DVLA et al because they won't magically move a vehicle from an defunct classification to one that suits you is pointless - get it registered and insured or shut up.

 

I don't think he can - this is the nub of the problem. We now know, several pages later, that he/they has/have gone down the V765 route with county council records and an examination of the vehicle from a club expert, but DVLA don't want to know.  Where it all kicked off was from his decision to take matters into his own hands and ride unlicenced and by definition uninsured because DVLA won't play ball, then doubling down by using an unrestricted e-bike that he claimed was legal because it was bought from a shop. 

DVLA has recently decided, without warning, that genuine VIN plates are the gold standard for plate retention and not even the FBHVC know why, as of yet. 

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24 minutes ago, alcyonecorporation said:

genuine VIN plates are the gold standard for plate retention

Interesting. Is that even over a V5 with a genuine VIN? Or is both together the gold standard? 

I've seen a few cases where they have the original VIN but no V5, not in the system and original plate becomes lost when DVLA give a new reg. 

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52 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I do still think there would be a market for a such vehicle even in todays day and age

I think the problem is that creating any new or different class of vehicle seems such a rigmarole nowadays. Even just getting private e-scooters legalised is taking forever. Despite them being a really good solution to private transportation around highly populated areas. A lot of the issues around them would become less troublesome if they were actually regulated properly. 

Even just determining how fast an invalid vehicle goes will become contentious. It'd have to be faster than 8mph scooters but then is 15mph still fast enough? E-bikes are that and imo would be better off being 20mph for the modern speed limits that are coming in populated areas. But then users would be limited to those areas. 

Then the whole "is it safe" question comes up on why the state is providing "dangerous" vehicles to those that have mobility issues. While also only providing individual transport for those that would want to travel together. You can walk along with someone else on a footpath with a mobility scooter but unlikely possible for anything bigger. Mrs SiC great grandfather wouldn't have to had a stool in his invacar and have her nan arrested if it took a passenger. 

Finally of course, as always, money. 

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18 minutes ago, alcyonecorporation said:

DVLA has recently decided, without warning, that genuine VIN plates are the gold standard for plate retention and not even the FBHVC know why, as of yet. 

There's an assortment of reproduction blank VIN plates on ebay. You can also buy stamp sets to punch them with. No idea why though, as you're definitely not allowed to use the information you have from existing documents that you have to punch your own VIN plate and rivet it on to the frame. That would be illegal, and would probably cause you to run over a child.

TBH not sure why the DVLA think it's the gold standard, the VIN plate has literally fallen off my ZX through sheer Frenchness and I will have to rivet it back on before an MOT. Lucky it didn't drop off whilst the car was in motion and bounce down the carriageway never to be seen again.

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4 minutes ago, SiC said:

I think the problem is that creating any new or different class of vehicle seems such a rigmarole nowadays. Even just getting private e-scooters legalised is taking forever. Despite them being a really good solution to private transportation around highly populated areas. A lot of the issues around them would become less troublesome if they were actually regulated properly. 

Even just determining how fast an invalid vehicle goes will become contentious. It'd have to be faster than 8mph scooters but then is 15mph still fast enough? E-bikes are that and imo would be better off being 20mph for the modern speed limits that are coming in populated areas. But then users would be limited to those areas. 

Then the whole "is it safe" question comes up on why the state is providing "dangerous" vehicles to those that have mobility issues. While also only providing individual transport for those that would want to travel together. You can walk along with someone else on a footpath with a mobility scooter but unlikely possible for anything bigger. Mrs SiC great grandfather wouldn't have to had a stool in his invacar and have her nan arrested if it took a passenger. 

Finally of course, as always, money. 

Why did you have to mention him "having a stool in his Invacar"? I've got a mental picture I can't get rid of! I know this is Autoshite, but really...... 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Rust Collector said:

There's an assortment of reproduction blank VIN plates on ebay. You can also buy stamp sets to punch them with. No idea why though, as you're definitely not allowed to use the information you have from existing documents that you have to punch your own VIN plate and rivet it on to the frame. That would be illegal, and would probably cause you to run over a child.

TBH not sure why the DVLA think it's the gold standard, the VIN plate has literally fallen off my ZX through sheer Frenchness and I will have to rivet it back on before an MOT. Lucky it didn't drop off whilst the car was in motion and bounce down the carriageway never to be seen again.

Nobody knows why. DVLA isn't telling. 

And no, it doesn't make sense. 

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57 minutes ago, red5 said:

Don't talk utter tripe - that's not why he was 'hung, drawn and quartered by people here who know, nothing about nothing,' 

He drove a unregistered, uninsured vehicle on the Kings Highway - that's what he was called out on.  Bleating about the DVLA et al because they won't magically move a vehicle from an defunct classification to one that suits you is pointless - get it registered and insured or shut up.

 

You're the one talking utter tripe! If you'd properly been following the posts you'd realise the open barrier everything with DVLA to get the carriage registered including providing evidence of the registration number.  It is not a defunct classification. So wind your neck in, you don't get to tell me to shut up!

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1 hour ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Happy to reply to a genuine comment, there are many 'experts' here.....  Example,  invalid carriage, e.g. Argsons, their nearest equivalent is a modern class three mobility scooter, they are not 'vehicles' as such legally they are not required to display a number plate or have insurance, although I do have both on mine, as it's good practice, but @brummiejonhas been hung, drawn and quartered by people here who know, nothing about nothing, as have I......

image.png.b810485f71c23b8dca025ad7c6a6f6e4.png

Ah.

TBF it does say that insurance is optional provided that it really is a class 3 and limited to 8mph.

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Although I would wager a weird plastic fiver that it doesn't comply with the current definition of class 3 and should be registered/insured as a tricycle or invalid carriage classification like an Invacar.

Surely, if it really is a class 3 carriage, one could accept whatever registriation the DVLA want to give it (Q, different age related etc) and just display the original anyway? Since displaying a reg is optional I can't see how one would get in trouble for displaying the wrong reg?

Anyone one looks forward to the article so we can read about what really happened.

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3 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

image.png.b810485f71c23b8dca025ad7c6a6f6e4.png

Ah.

 

2 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

Although I would wager a weird plastic fiver that it doesn't comply with the current definition of class 3 and should be registered/insured as a tricycle or invalid carriage classification like an Invacar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the invalid carraige/mobility scooter being discussed here does not fit neatly into those classes as it can do more than 8mph - yes? if so, it needs registering to whatever class it fits. If it doesn't fit any and can't be registered it can't be used on the road. No arguments.

If I'm wrong, then I'm pretty damned certain it can do more than 4mph and needs to be registered anyway.

I'm sure its very annoying for some to see facts posted on this thread, getting in the way of all the "senseless bullying" going on, what with all the pointing out of illegality that has since been debunked proven to actually be illegal.

If the DVLA are unwilling to register it, it cannot be used on the road. Nor can the electric bike mentioned until it is registered also. See facts previously posted by me. Thats the beginning and end of it, and people who willingly break the law deserve to be called out on it. Yes, some of the comments (by myself and others) went a little far (name calling for example) - but I don't honestly know why we would be expected not to be annoyed by someone breaking the law and posting it up as if its a good thing... Anyone? 

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2 hours ago, SiC said:

Like you said, Mobility scooters are registered as such. This is because they've gone through type approval and certified as such. To gain this TA, it requires certain things to pass - such as restricting to 8mph and a 4mph "pedestrian area" mode. 

I don't see brummiejon Stanley being mentioned having any of that? Ignoring the speed restrictions and approvals, it's not even currently registered according to his own words. 

So right now it's in the same class as an E-Scooter. It's a vehicle that requires full insurance to be on the road and also be road registered. Except no one will provide insurance as it's not even registered with the DVLA. Just like an E-Scooter bought from eBay. 

So it's both illegal and very inconsiderate it being used on any public road, footpath or land. 

You are trying to apply modern 'type approval' to ancient machines.....it would be the same as saying a Euro 6 on a Thames Trader Diesel....

You cannot rewrite history.... 

My own invalid carriages in use are all registered, insured, taxed, but at zero rate due to age exempt, insured, they date from 1932 to 1955, but all differ from each other in 'features' and fixtures and fittings, some have a speedometer, some dont, all have headlamps and stop and rear lights but not all have indicators, those that dont, I use hand signals with a large rear warning sticker, none have seat belts, some have an electric push button horn, some have a 'bulb' brass horn.  All fully legal.  The same as with classic cars dependant on age, some have type approval, some dont!

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5 minutes ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

You are trying to apply modern 'type approval' to ancient machines.....it would be the same as saying a Euro 6 on a Thames Trader Diesel....

No, we are not.

You and the other chap are trying to apply an old machine to current legislation. If the DVLA won't register it, it isn't legal.

If they won't register it how the two of you want, you'll have to register it under whatever rules they will register it under - even a new vehicle - if you want it to be road legal. And until then, stop bloody using it 😂

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