invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

21 hours ago, quicksilver said:

This just turned up  on Flickr

Chorlton Street coach station, Manchester, 10 November 1984. A rather run-down Plaxton Elite-bodied Leopard but what's that behind it? Sadly we can't see anything of the reg of the Model 70.

still a neat shot! one of those would be fun to reproduce  

I will admit at very first glance I thought you had found a picture of MHJ54P at long last! but alas not! 

it does amuse me, that no one seems to have a picture of MHJ54P! given normally theres been enough bus enthusiasts throughout time, that you mention any other bus and someone will have a photo of it somewhere!

(for example I was talking to Stuart about the Retroreflective number plate trial scheme of 1964 IIRC, and he mentioned that some buses where used but he did not have many good pictures, so I went through the usual resources and quite quickly found a few good photos for him ) 

 

speaking of old pictures! I came across this lovely photo of a Harper Mk6

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21804434@N02/5795707017

but check out the registration mark! yeah if it sounds familiar! its the direct sister car to 61HPA!

I still wonder if 61HPA is still around, its story is really sad, apparently it was in prestine condition in your typical old persons garage, until that person passed away and it was just sold onto to some travellers who bought it as a play thing for their kids and was just left to deteriorate

it supposedly/rumoured to have been sold to the chap responsable for buying cars for the Jesada Technic Museum, in Thailand, but that it was never actually collected in the end and may still be by the A3 to this day! 

 

 

[Dave_Q]

Ref the wheel studs, EN8 is 465MPa yield strength and 750-800Nm UTS. 

8.8 would be a good grade for comparison which is 640MPa yield and 800MPa UTS. 10.9 is common in automotive for highly loaded things which is 900MPa yield/1000MPa UTS.

It's probably close enough (to the 8.8), if you can tell me what diameter and pitch they are I can work out how close to yield they are at the recommended tightening torque. 

For reference I would definitely stick to the stated torque even if it seems high, for a bolted joint one common failure mode is fatigue through slipping of the joint interfaces. The preload on the bolt needs to be high enough to stop the 2 flange faces moving relative to each other. If they can slip even a fraction of a mm then the bolt could eventually break or loosen.

[Dave_Q]

4 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Thank you.   3/8 x 24 UNF to accept wheel nut and 3/8 x 20 BSF into the hub flange.  The BSF part is 7/16" long and is not threaded right up to the shoulder to avoid a possible stress point, so has approx. 3/8" effective thread length.

 

OK and max 40 ft/lb? All the tools are in metric but I will see if I can figure it out.

[Dave_Q]

The stress area of the bolt is (pi/4)x(D-0.9743/n)^2  where D is the nominal diameter and n the number of threads per inch, I've used 20tpi as that will have a marginally smaller area than the 24. (from https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bolt-threads-stress-d_856.html)

This is 0.08357in^2 or 53.91mm^2.

I've gone metric for the rest of it as thats what I understand, 40ft/lb is 54.23Nm which with a simple nut factor calc (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bolt-torque-load-calculator-d_2065.html) is 28450N preload.

28450N/53.41mm^2 = 532MPa stress.

I would say this is too high for the EN8 to be honest. Particularly as some resources say that the yield varies depending on the heat treatment condition and can be as low as 265MPa https://www.astmsteel.com/product/en8-carbon-steel-080m40-bs-970/ - did it mention if it was condition N, Q, or R?

EN16T would definitely be closer to a typical 8.8 grade HTS bolt. 

Or, you could reduce the torque, a very simplistic assumption that the most one wheel would support would be 1/2 the vehicle weight (250kg?) and this would be a shear load shared between 4 bolts? So at 2500N/4 about 625N per bolt with 3125N clamp force required to resist it assuming 0.2 coefficient of friction between wheel and hub. Several times lower than the 28450N we have. If you were to torque to 25ft/lb as you mention, this would be 332MPa stress which would be a happier range for the EN8 and still plenty of clamp force.

Big disclaimer on this, calculating the loads on something dynamic like a wheel/hub interface is not at all straightforward and anyone listening to the above is still responsible for their own safety, this is a bolt fan doing a bit of maths for fun not professional advice.

[LightBulbFun]

I dont have much to add to the technical side of all this, but just want to say I am enjoying it quite a bit I love all the technical details and investigations that sort of stuff is right up my street  

 

also on an unrelated* note, anyone happen to be able to recommend a good torque wrench for me to add to my ever growing tool kit?  

I am quite glad to read discussion about what would be a good torque value as sadly the workshop manual does not state a torque value, and I have no real world experience myself to judge what is good/bad by hand and the last thing I want to do is snap one of REV's wheel studs!, so Its nice to have some figures to go by at long last!

[ETCHY]

7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

still a neat shot! one of those would be fun to reproduce  

I will admit at very first glance I thought you had found a picture of MHJ54P at long last! but alas not! 

it does amuse me, that no one seems to have a picture of MHJ54P! given normally theres been enough bus enthusiasts throughout time, that you mention any other bus and someone will have a photo of it somewhere!

(for example I was talking to Stuart about the Retroreflective number plate trial scheme of 1964 IIRC, and he mentioned that some buses where used but he did not have many good pictures, so I went through the usual resources and quite quickly found a few good photos for him ) 

 

speaking of old pictures! I came across this lovely photo of a Harper Mk6

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21804434@N02/5795707017

but check out the registration mark! yeah if it sounds familiar! its the direct sister car to 61HPA!

I still wonder if 61HPA is still around, its story is really sad, apparently it was in prestine condition in your typical old persons garage, until that person passed away and it was just sold onto to some travellers who bought it as a play thing for their kids and was just left to deteriorate

it supposedly/rumoured to have been sold to the chap responsable for buying cars for the Jesada Technic Museum, in Thailand, but that it was never actually collected in the end and may still be by the A3 to this day! 

 

Does nobody live near the A3 that can take a look ?

[Weird Car]

2 hours ago, ETCHY said:

Does nobody live near the A3 that can take a look ?

I do, I’ve tried searching a few times for it but without a general location I found nothing 

[Crackers]

"Near the A3" is like saying "somewhere near the Russian border", it's a pretty large search area... 

[Weird Car]

I mean I’d happily commence a proper search if I knew the general location, but like @Crackers said it’ll be like looking for a needle in a haystack

[Joey spud]

Back in the mid eighties when I started out in the motor trade one of the first workshop tasks we had to perform at college was to be able to tighten a Marina wheel nut to 40 ft lbs by feel alone.

Obviously we had a torque wrench to check our efforts but it was a good little exercise that has served me well over the years as I still tell myself now that I have a calibrated elbow.

Another task was was turning a lump of round metal bar  into a 1/2" square using a chisel and file, wasn't so keen on that one..

[Crackers]

7 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

One of these is perfectly adequate.  Not super accurate perhaps, but we are not doing rocket surgery.

We tested one of these that cost £3 from a car boot on a bench designed for calibrating electronic torque wrenches costing thousands of euros. 

I'm not joking, it was staggeringly accurate across its whole torque range. Brilliant engineering. 

With the bench set to 60lb/ft, you can see how close we could get to the target torque. The variation is purely from over/under shooting the mark - when you get it dead on, the torque is perfect. 

The only disadvantages are the lack of ratchet, and that you can only use it on fixings where it allows you to see the scale. Also, to hit the maximum torque, the handle isn't really long enough to accurately hit the marker without wobbling about. 

Anyway, you can have your thread back now... 

[Joey spud]

7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I dont have much to add to the technical side of all this, but just want to say I am enjoying it quite a bit I love all the technical details and investigations that sort of stuff is right up my street  

 

also on an unrelated* note, anyone happen to be able to recommend a good torque wrench for me to add to my ever growing tool kit?  

I am quite glad to read discussion about what would be a good torque value as sadly the workshop manual does not state a torque value, and I have no real world experience myself to judge what is good/bad by hand and the last thing I want to do is snap one of REV's wheel studs!, so Its nice to have some figures to go by at long last!

You need something like this.

A pre-loved 40-200Nm Norbar (30-145ft lb).

These are far more accurate down the bottom on their range than a bigger 300Nm plus wrench.

PM me your address and I'll clean and calibrate one up and pop it in the post to you.

 

 

[Mrs6C]

The location is near Milford, but respecting the privacy of the owners, the specific location and full address can remain unmentioned.

[Crackers]

17 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

The location is near Milford, but respecting the privacy of the owners, the specific location and full address can remain unmentioned.

In which case I suspect I would know where to find this, but it is somewhere I will absolutely not be going for a look around. 

[Crackers]

20 minutes ago, Joey spud said:

You need something like this.

A pre loved 40-200Nm Norbar (30-145ft lb).

These are far more accurate down the bottom on their range than a bigger300Nm plus wrench.

PM me your address and I'll clean and calibrate one up and pop it in the post to you.

 

 

Don't suppose you'd have a second one for sale would you mister? No worries if not, but PM me if you do 😁

[Joey spud]

55 minutes ago, Crackers said:

We tested one of these that cost £3 from a car boot on a bench designed for calibrating electronic torque wrenches costing thousands of euros. 

I'm not joking, it was staggeringly accurate across its whole torque range. Brilliant engineering. 

With the bench set to 60lb/ft, you can see how close we could get to the target torque. The variation is purely from over/under shooting the mark - when you get it dead on, the torque is perfect. 

The only disadvantages are the lack of ratchet, and that you can only use it on fixings where it allows you to see the scale. Also, to hit the maximum torque, the handle isn't really long enough to accurately hit the marker without wobbling about. 

Anyway, you can have your thread back now... 

Yes the old swinging needle wrenches are surprisingly good my father in law bought a shiny new 1982 Mini Metro via a Jersey dealer and for some reason his local BL franchise wouldn't do the 500 mile service for free that among other things involved retorquing the head bolts so he went to Halfords and purchased one of these cheap wrenches and did it himself.

Fast forward nearly Forty years and the Metro is long gone but we recently uncovered the wrench and for a laugh I put it on my tester and it was good just about good enough to go to work again.

Here's my 30-1500Nm tester with a 3/4" drive Norbar 5R hanging off it.

[Blake's Den]

Hey @LightBulbFun, this has popped up on an auctioneers website that I follow :https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/9287aae29190b12e4c0bdb1a5c658770/1f1638c9faeb7c2641b7b1e9c67628d0/two-day-auction-of-collectables-antiques-jewellery-f-lot-1220/

It is XPD 805 which is a Argson. A quick google search of the numberplate shows some photos of the same vehicle so I guess that this one is known to you already.

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, Joey spud said:

You need something like this.

A pre-loved 40-200Nm Norbar (30-145ft lb).

These are far more accurate down the bottom on their range than a bigger 300Nm plus wrench.

PM me your address and I'll clean and calibrate one up and pop it in the post to you.

 

 

oh awesome thats seriously much appreciated! I have fired you off a PM!

@Mr Pastry/@Dave_Q would 30ft pounds still be a safe amount over 25ft pounds? (obviously I know that the calculations being done are for the material the new studs are made of, and not whatever type of cheese the originals are made from, but I figured its a good ballpark figure)

 

4 hours ago, Harriytait said:

I mean I’d happily commence a proper search if I knew the general location, but like @Crackers said it’ll be like looking for a needle in a haystack

@Harriytait I never realised where you properly looking for it! had I known id of happily shared its exact last known location! ill PM you some details if your still interested?  

 

15 minutes ago, Blake's Den said:

Hey @LightBulbFun, this has popped up on an auctioneers website that I follow :https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/9287aae29190b12e4c0bdb1a5c658770/1f1638c9faeb7c2641b7b1e9c67628d0/two-day-auction-of-collectables-antiques-jewellery-f-lot-1220/

It is XPD 805 which is a Argson. A quick google search of the numberplate shows some photos of the same vehicle so I guess that this one is known to you already.

Oh holy shit! that needs saving! I have been desperately searching for what happened to it!  its the Sister car to the Acedes NPB840D both Ex Heywood cars given by the Ministry to the Manchester transport museum, and then they where given to a Charity that fell apart

 

XPD805 the very youngest Stanley Argson known to survive! that needs saving!

I might be about to do something really stupid! unless someone on here is happy to go for it and give it a good home instead?

 

[Weird Car]

1 minute ago, LightBulbFun said:

@Harriytait I never realised where you properly looking for it! had I known id of happily shared its exact last known location! ill PM you some details if your still interested?  

You can pm the location if you want but by the sounds of it it’s a place to avoid, I might still scope the area though, if it’s too dangerous it’ll be a no go for me.

[ETCHY]

5 hours ago, Harriytait said:

I do, I’ve tried searching a few times for it but without a general location I found nothing 

That's a shame be nice to know if it's still around.

Really sad to think it just ended up being trashed by some kids.

[Blake's Den]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Oh holy shit! that needs saving! I have been desperately searching for what happened to it!  its the Sister car to the Acedes NPB840D both Ex Heywood cars given by the Ministry to the Manchester transport museum, and then they where given to a Charity that fell apart

 

XPD805 the very youngest Stanley Argson known to survive! that needs saving!

I might be about to do something really stupid! unless someone on here is happy to go for it and give it a good home instead?

 

Oh no, what have I done! 😆

[ETCHY]

8 hours ago, Harriytait said:

I mean I’d happily commence a proper search if I knew the general location, but like @Crackers said it’ll be like looking for a needle in a haystack

Thing is as well I suppose, it's amazing how even the most modest bit of undergrowth can hide stuff.
Me & a mate of mine quite like going out & finding old ww2 defences like Pillboxes. Sometimes you can be stood next to a big bloody concrete thing that's covered in weeds etc & not know it's actually there.. so you could easily "lose" a little invalid carriage !

[LightBulbFun]

20 minutes ago, Blake's Den said:

Oh no, what have I done! 😆

ahhh sadly tis not to be, for me at least! 

a bit of frantic running around to see if I could secure some undercover storage at the last moment, but it does not look feasable

its probably a good thing I dont get it, as A: I need another REV type project like I need a hole in my head and B: if I was to get this Argson, then I feel id be obliged to also get NPB840D somehow, given they are a known pair LOL

lets see if I can convince Adam or someone else to buy and save it instead  

19 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Subject to further research, I would say yes as an absolute maximum with EN8, and it should be fine with the original studs, but it would be very handy to know what type of cheese they are made of, and if it is indeed cheese.  You have to choose ball park figures carefully, because people will say: "30 ft/lb, that's not much, give it bit extra for luck," so it's best to err on the side of caution. 

I have just been out to my small trailer, which has 3/8 UNF studs, Mini style.  Removed a couple of nuts, degreased threads, and tightened until they just felt right.  Then checked with torque wrench and it read 25 ft/lb. and they would go to 30 without feeling overtight, but that seemed enough.  So, I think 25 to 30 is a reasonable working range.

I am confident about using the EN16 studs as they are practically unbreakable, but not that excited about making any more.  Undecided about EN8 yet.  It really needs a long term test, with four studs on a hub on a vehicle in regular use.   If they are not strong enough, they will work loose in the hub.   Clearly this test isn't going to happen. 

Were the same studs used on the Villiers engined cars?  The BSF thread must be a legacy from something else.

thats good to know  however looks like @Joey spud has kindly unearthed a 6-46 ft pounds torque wrench so I should be able to do the ideal 25ft pounds at least  

(I am very thankful for that, as most of the other torque values on a Model 70 are around that range, for example the torque value specced for the pulley retaining bolts is 30-32ft pounds, so i am pleased that ill have a proper tool on handle to deal with those should I need to)

 

indeed Im pretty sure as you say, that the wheel studs are a hold over from the Villers machines, I have never been able to verify it! but I know that they are also 3/8th UNF for the wheel-nut side, and I recall them looking a lot like whats found on a Model 70

esp as the Model 70's front hub is a complete AC bespoke design and that uses the same wheel studs also, so I would not be surprised if they are a hold over from a previous machine, Its something I have been meaning to check on my trailer that was once a Model 64!

 

its also been mentioned that obviously AC was a very traditional company, so that its not too surprising that they did things a bit old worldly, I know there are a few whitworth bolts floating around on the Model 70 even! (IIRC the bolt that holds the rear engine mount assembly to the rear chassis rail is a whitworth one)

 

[Dobloseven]

2 hours ago, ETCHY said:

Thing is as well I suppose, it's amazing how even the most modest bit of undergrowth can hide stuff.
Me & a mate of mine quite like going out & finding old ww2 defences like Pillboxes. Sometimes you can be stood next to a big bloody concrete thing that's covered in weeds etc & not know it's actually there.. so you could easily "lose" a little invalid carriage !

This was at the entrance to a campsite in Burnham Market in Norfolk we were at a couple of weeks ago. 

[chadders]

8 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

This was at the entrance to a campsite in Burnham Market in Norfolk we were at a couple of weeks ago. 

There's a similar one on the road between Fakenham and Swaffham.

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I think the front studs are different as they are riveted in, so are probably not threaded at the hub end.  

I think they are screwed/threaded in and then peened over at the end rather the riveted in, the workshop manual lists the wheel stud just once and that its 12 per vehicle, so I think they are the same front and rear  

On 09/05/2020 at 18:38, LightBulbFun said:

yeah I was wondering what the tale tail sign of them being tacked in was, because they just looked like they where screwed in to me!

but I have very little hands on experience with this sort of stuff so I wasn't going to say anything! 

for future reference heres some pictures from the ebay listing  

 

 

 

 

(its an interesting coating they have on them. I wonder if its hard or if its gloopy?)

 

On 19/05/2020 at 18:00, Zelandeth said:

Sod all time to really do much today but did take a closer look at the NOS front Invacar hub.

Felt like a bit of a vandal peeling off the waxy coating which has kept it looking like new for decades, but needs must and it's done its job very well.

A part number then became visible.  Have to assume this is AC's own internal part code for it.

While these haven't been welded in place, the ends of the studs have been peened over to prevent them from unscrewing easily.

Given I've had an order from someone on another forum who has far better equipment to deal with this than I do to assist with extraction of these studs I may well take them up on the offer.  I don't want to end up wrecking these in my own ham fisted attempts to remove them. Also don't want to just go after the back of the stud with the grinder given there aren't a massive number of threads involved to start with.

Aside from anything else, trying to apply any significant torque to this without a bench mounted vice to hold onto it is going to be nigh on impossible.

 

[stendec]

On 10/18/2022 at 12:19 PM, LightBulbFun said:

…do you happen to know also who got the Harding Consort FFB 550 or whats happening with that? (I did drop the chap a PM again but got no response sadly, I might drop him a message on ebay, just so I can try and avoid losing track of the machines at least!) 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265979958145?hash=item3deda41381:g:d-cAAOSwJg9jWTRs&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoC9qpOuQf2ctPbRMXdHEIvseWe5Wmxwe14dR9RkowBAgM54ZBtBiuKXsDrK9d5zbYonzalFXrivVndfAHXrq3Tbg1rfmBwjVLvUFYO%2F2A5w94s2XNqTTOV5N1SCNchjrnRcxifoJ3dKuhFxX9SbYP3yK2aNTZj8qrGiViq%2B88x%2B80n%2BuHk%2B7XEDqFb2gojrdUlknE%2Flgsb468iZBK2URc54%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_qn75KLYQ

Starting bid at £3,000

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, stendec said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265979958145?hash=item3deda41381:g:d-cAAOSwJg9jWTRs&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoC9qpOuQf2ctPbRMXdHEIvseWe5Wmxwe14dR9RkowBAgM54ZBtBiuKXsDrK9d5zbYonzalFXrivVndfAHXrq3Tbg1rfmBwjVLvUFYO%2F2A5w94s2XNqTTOV5N1SCNchjrnRcxifoJ3dKuhFxX9SbYP3yK2aNTZj8qrGiViq%2B88x%2B80n%2BuHk%2B7XEDqFb2gojrdUlknE%2Flgsb468iZBK2URc54%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_qn75KLYQ

Starting bid at £3,000

thanks for the heads up! seems like the poor chap is having a bit difficulties with time wasters on that one sadly! I think its been re-listed about 2 or 3 times now!

 I was able to get back in contact with him through ebay a week or 2 back so it was good to hear from him again  

hopefully it can find a good home! as mentioned in the eBay listing this is the earliest Consort any of us have seen and I genuinely would not be surprised if this was the first

and being a petrol machine should enable it to be able to amble along quite nicely  

 

 

BTW on the Argson above, Adam says he cant grab it due to time and space constraints,

so if someone else here is interested in getting it for themselves please do!  

[AdgeCutler]

Off on a magical mystery tour!

[AdgeCutler]

On 5/12/2020 at 10:09 PM, LightBulbFun said:

HEV109H, Invacar Mk12E, Date of first registration 1970, Current status reportedly in Holland

The owner of this car has just been in contact with me in preparation for restoration. Looks at a glance to be in great shape anyhow and I hope it is a sympathetic job. I'll mention Autoshite to him, see if he may climb aboard?