invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[plasticvandan]

One you may not have seen 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/b-invalid-car-round-in-circle-gv-mini-invalid-car-towards-news-footage/803553660

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 12/03/2021 at 21:35, plasticvandan said:

One you may not have seen 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/b-invalid-car-round-in-circle-gv-mini-invalid-car-towards-news-footage/803553660

 

 

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Oh thats very cool! 

I had seen bits of it, but never a full clip like that

I previously made a fun little GIF from one of the bits I had seen  

 

its very cool to see the handling test against the Mini, I had only read about it until now, that one makes me Grin, as the Model 70 spanked the Mini but the papers at the time simply said thats because the Invacar was narrower and they had placed the cones to favour the Invacar and squeeze the Mini

conveniently ignoring the fact at the rear a Model 70 is the same width as a Mini, so if the Invacar could fit through the gap then there would be the same amount of space for the Mini as well!

People then (and even today) just could not compute that in some cases the Model 70 was not actually a horrible automobile that fell over and caught fire at the first gentle bend!

and that an Invacar out handled a Mini  

[LightBulbFun]

  On 12/03/2021 at 20:44, Mr Pastry said:

I have just checked in the history of Cromar White Ltd and their prototype Villiers loco was indeed 1967, but they were in production 1970 to 1976.   Pride and Clarke would have been buying the surplus engines directly from Villers, so presumably the future plans would have been in place.

FWIW the loco on test pulled 1 ton 21/2 cwt, up a 1 in 50 gradient, and had a top speed of 18MPH which must have been scary on a 7 1/4" gauge track.

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ah interesting   1970-1976 would fit much better with the selling off of surplus engines

 

you dont happen to recall what their full specification number was?

the Villers numbers is something im still trying to get to the bottom of

of course there is 11E/4SFR thats the main type, but then there is also another code listed a Specification number

and I have still not been able to figure out exactly what it means

the reason im curious, is all replacement engines for all Villers machines listed in the DHSS Spare parts manual  is listed as the 11E/4SFR Specification number 419F (AC Acedes Model 57, Tippen Delta Model 59, Stanley Mk7/Mk7A Model 65, and AC Acedes Mk14/14A/15 Model 67)

except however the Model 66, the Invacar Mk12A to Mk12E is listed as using the 11E/4SFR  Specification number 313F

and I have been curious what the difference is, but have not been able to find much on it sadly

(I have it in my head that its to do with the ratios of the gears in the gearbox, But I dont know where I got that idea from, so it could be a load of bollocks)

 

 

[Mr Pastry]

  On 13/03/2021 at 14:19, LightBulbFun said:

(I have it in my head that its to do with the ratios of the gears in the gearbox,

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I don't really have any more info atm.  Gear ratios is a good shout, or compression ratio maybe.  You could run it past Villiers Services, or Mark Daniels at Mopedland.  It would be interesting to know.  I guess 4SFR = 4 speed, fan cooled, reversible?

[Mr Pastry]

  On 13/03/2021 at 15:56, Mr Pastry said:

I guess 4SFR = 4 speed, fan cooled, reversible?

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Correction, S= Starter apparently, but I was right about the rest.   Have a look at a site called IceniCAM for obscure two stroke rabbit holes.

[egg]

I asked Villiers Services about dating engines, and I didn't get a detailed response - but he did say 'every part is on the shelf' for the 11E.

[egg]

  On 13/03/2021 at 16:11, Mr Pastry said:

IceniCAM

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Indeed. the Sales page is interesting....

http://www.icenicam.org.uk/market.html

[Mr Pastry]

  On 13/03/2021 at 16:58, egg said:

Indeed. the Sales page is interesting....

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Now come on, own up, we're all friends here - you really want an Ariel 3, don't you?

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/03/2021 at 17:42, Mr Pastry said:

Now come on, own up, we're all friends here - you really want an Ariel 3, don't you?

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Twas thinking the VeloVap would be just the thing for @strangeangel and im not just saying that because my own personal Bias because of its Surrey registration number

[egg]

  On 13/03/2021 at 17:42, Mr Pastry said:

Now come on, own up, we're all friends here - you really want an Ariel 3, don't you?

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Someone on here had one I think....but could be a false memory....

[dollywobbler]

TPA?

 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/03/2021 at 22:26, dollywobbler said:

TPA?

 

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indeed! it looks @Zelandeth has been papped at long last!  

took far long then I initially expected!

[AdgeCutler]

A little update on my Mk12e: 

 

[Mrs6C]

  On 14/03/2021 at 09:41, AdgeCutler said:

A little update on my Mk12e: 

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That blower is a mobile cannon!

Excellent progress. That metal contact strip is quite something. Simple, yet effective.

I have been looking over mine in more detail. The chassis outriggers at the rear are under some stress as they hold the lower pivot points for the  rear suspension units. If the outriggers are compromised in their integrity through corrosion, as these are, then removal of the floor from the outriggers will remove the bracing function that the floor has provided, which means the outriggers are at risk of being bent away from true. The floor is also useful as a datum point for retaining the outriggers in the correct location while they are repaired, at least to the point where they won't move. The floor could then be removed for final repairs and tidying.

The floor had already corroded away at the back on this example, so it wasn't doing much in the way of bracing or acting as a datum line! It can all be rectified when the time comes, of course, but if the outriggers on yours are a bit suspect, I'd suggest leaving the floor in place and attached to them until you have repaired them sufficiently that they stay put with the correct geometry or otherwise you have braced them to this state via other means.

 

[AdgeCutler]

  On 14/03/2021 at 11:10, Mrs6C said:

That blower is a mobile cannon!

Excellent progress. That metal contact strip is quite something. Simple, yet effective.

I have been looking over mine in more detail. The chassis outriggers at the rear are under some stress as they hold the lower pivot points for the  rear suspension units. If the outriggers are compromised in their integrity through corrosion, as these are, then removal of the floor from the outriggers will remove the bracing function that the floor has provided, which means the outriggers are at risk of being bent away from true. The floor is also useful as a datum point for retaining the outriggers in the correct location while they are repaired, at least to the point where they won't move. The floor could then be removed for final repairs and tidying.

The floor had already corroded away at the back on this example, so it wasn't doing much in the way of bracing or acting as a datum line! It can all be rectified when the time comes, of course, but if the outriggers on yours are a bit suspect, I'd suggest leaving the floor in place and attached to them until you have repaired them sufficiently that they stay put with the correct geometry or otherwise you have braced them to this state via other means.

 

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Thank you Mrs6c, I'll bear that in mind and have a mooch. The floor on mine is still there but it's very thin metal and also quite corroded, I don't think it will be offering a huge amount to the structural integrity and most of the bolts securing it to the chassis have already been removed. It's quite interesting that it was galvanised though this has obviously not offered much a great deal of protection.

[LightBulbFun]

  On 14/03/2021 at 09:41, AdgeCutler said:

A little update on my Mk12e: 

 

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Very cool! that was very interesting and useful to see

as I have had conflicting reports on whether or not these Villers machines had a reverse inhibitor switch, now I know that at least on the Mk12E that there is indeed one  

(and it does not look like it would be very hard to bypass if you where completely mad LOL)

[Mrs6C]

  On 14/03/2021 at 13:33, LightBulbFun said:

reverse inhibitor switch

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In the loosest way, quite literally...

[strangeangel]

  On 13/03/2021 at 18:47, egg said:

Someone on here had one I think....but could be a false memory....

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@pbottomley has several. If you have a rummage through the Bikeshite thread there is an absolutely priceless video of him hooning around on one.

 

  On 13/03/2021 at 17:42, Mr Pastry said:

Ariel 3

 

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WOULD.

 

[Six-cylinder]

[Mrs6C]

  On 14/03/2021 at 17:34, Six-cylinder said:

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With as much structural integrity* as the real thing!

*currently...

[LightBulbFun]

  On 14/03/2021 at 17:34, Six-cylinder said:

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hah thats very cool!  

although the number plate should be a white on black plate

funnily enough I have never actually seen a Mk12 on Retroreflective plates bearing the vehicles actual registration number

otherwise only @AdgeCutler's when it was wearing Citroen BX plates, and GVW600H from Hamden Football museum with its "SFA1873" plates

and while im being picky LOL I see your using the Front of an Invacar Mk12E with 7 inch headlamps , the Invacar Mk12c which XWC468F is, has 1957 specification 5 inch head lamps as apposed to ~1967 specification 7 inch headlamps that the Mk12D and Mk12E where fitted with

[LightBulbFun]

  On 14/03/2021 at 17:37, Mrs6C said:

With as much structural integrity* as the real thing!

*currently...

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we have the wibbly wobbly

we just need the timey wimey now

[Six-cylinder]

  On 14/03/2021 at 18:04, LightBulbFun said:

although the number plate should be a white on black plate

funnily enough I have never actually seen a Mk12 on Retroreflective plates bearing the vehicles actual registration number

and while im being picky LOL I see your using the Front of an Invacar Mk12E with 7 inch headlamps , the Invacar Mk12c which XWC468F is, has 1957 specification 5 inch head lamps as apposed to ~1967 specification 7 inch headlamps that the Mk12D and Mk12E where fitted with

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It was 1968 when white and yellow became an option and there use caught on fast as it made the cars look newer. My first car a 1968 (F) Hillman Imp had white and yellow  plates, but the raised digit type. Maybe the workshop preparing Invacars did not have a machine or had a stock of the black and white blanks.

I have struggled to find photos that were square on to each side including top surfaces to even do that prototype cut and fold. I would love to do it again with a good set of photos. I could not use Mrs6C's as it came in pieces. 

I was also unable to find any dimensions so simply guessed at a bit less than a model 70.

[LightBulbFun]

  On 14/03/2021 at 18:31, Six-cylinder said:

It was 1968 when white and yellow became an option and there use caught on fast as it made the cars look newer. My first car a 1968 (F) Hillman Imp had white and yellow  plates, but the raised digit type. Maybe the workshop preparing Invacars did not have a machine or had a stock of the black and white blanks.

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indeed, but it only became compulsory from the 1st of January 1973, and as such new Ministry invalid vehicles where fitted with white on black plates until the 1st of January 1973  

(we dont know if because it was specifically part of their specification/build contract, or because simply they where slightly cheaper, since when you ordering 100 or 200 pairs of number plates at a time it adds up!) 

here is an example of L reg Invacar Model 70 on white on black plates for example  (VOO623L if its hard to read)

and most Ministry machines retained their orignial plates until the end unless something forced their replacement and even then they only replaced the damaged plate

so for example FPD167B has a retroreflective raised digit front plate

but a pressed ally silver on black rear plate!

 

  On 14/03/2021 at 18:31, Six-cylinder said:

I have struggled to find photos that were square on to each side including top surfaces to even do that prototype cut and fold. I would love to do it again with a good set of photos. I could not use Mrs6C's as it came in pieces. 

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Yeah I had figured such, when XWC468F is one of only 4 Invacar Mk12c's known to survive pictures are sadly quite scarce! 

but if you have a 3D scanner maybe its a good thing its in bits then you can scan it in and have the most accurate Mk12 model there is  

 

  On 14/03/2021 at 18:31, Six-cylinder said:

I was also unable to find any dimensions so simply guessed at a bit less than a model 70.

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here you go  this is for a Mk12E as you can see but dimensionally the same as a Mk12c, so should still be good for model making  (I have sadly not yet come across a Mk12c instruction manual yet)

 

 

[High Jetter]

  On 14/03/2021 at 17:34, Six-cylinder said:

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I do hope that's a cake!

[OldBlokeInACaravan]

  On 09/03/2021 at 12:58, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Come to Daddy! 😆  

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Did anyone on here win this?? I missed out! Bugger! 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 15/03/2021 at 16:08, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Did anyone on here win this?? I missed out! Bugger! 

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I was just looking at it and wondering the same went for only £245 in the end!

[OldBlokeInACaravan]

  On 15/03/2021 at 16:23, LightBulbFun said:

I was just looking at it and wondering the same went for only £245 in the end!

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I had a couple of bids but wasn't going to go much further, with the cost of transport, it was too prohibitive........ Shame though! 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 15/03/2021 at 16:38, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

I had a couple of bids but wasn't going to go much further, with the cost of transport, it was too prohibitive........ Shame though! 

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maybe hopefully @R1152 managed to nab it?  

 

  On 09/03/2021 at 19:09, R1152 said:

I've "added it to my watch list".

Oh dear.

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[R1152]

Sadly, not me... 😒