invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[BorniteIdentity]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:06, lesapandre said:

I'd recommend the ignore option on the site menu. It's comprised in the profile menu section. 

I have used it to mute out all irrelevant posts so I can concentrate on posters with motoring contributions. 

It means while individual posters show up on the timeline - associated irrelevant posts and content is not visible and can be skipped over. 

It's enabled me to keep your very excellent thread to a usable length, relevant and readable. I'm only interested in the Invacar and other associated on-topic material - overall I draw a distinction between content and comment. The former is where my interest lies.

Keep up the good work. The Invacar photo is excellent. I always welcome more material about these fascinating cars from you and others.

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So he should put me on IGNORE because I said that the car won't be much fun to drive in winter and he pulled up a single instance of it being driven in winter?  

It's SUCH an odd approach to life, I simply can't get my head around it.

[Talbot]

An actual technical question about the model70.

Does it have anywhere an A-frame could actually attach to, and if so, will the drive train tolerate being dragged down the road at 60mph?  I seem to recall that it probably would not due to the cvt belt drive being driven backwards.

Edit: maybe it would with the belt removed....

[BorniteIdentity]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:06, lesapandre said:

I can concentrate on posters with motoring contributions.

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Like the 102 page long thread I've been compiling for 8 years, featuring every car I've ever owned, the three I've been custodian of in the last month, the terrible but charming Ford Sierra bASe and my Nan's Mini i've just spent months and thousands on.

What makes a few heads inexplicably explode around here is that I, and others, DO contribute to the wider forum (unlike our new grumpy friend who minced in a few days ago).  But we also post in this thread too.  It's a discussion forum, where alternate viewpoints and angles are put up.  Part of being a fucking adult is being able to hear what other people have to say and not be so totally triggered by it like some high functioning, autistic toddler.  

I have absolutely nothing against you - but I do often wonder how people get through the day if they are so fragile, and need such great protection from people who may say things that don't align with their own views. 

Honestly.  Nobody here is going to hurt anyone with their words.  It's just the internet.

[BorniteIdentity]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:21, Talbot said:

An actual technical question about the model70.

Does it have anywhere an A-frame could actually attach to, and if so, will the drive train tolerate being dragged down the road at 60mph?  I seem to recall that it probably would not due to the cvt belt drive being driven backwards.

Edit: maybe it would with the belt removed....

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Please tell me you're buying one...

[chadders]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:21, Talbot said:

An actual technical question about the model70.

Does it have anywhere an A-frame could actually attach to, and if so, will the drive train tolerate being dragged down the road at 60mph?  I seem to recall that it probably would not due to the cvt belt drive being driven backwards.

Edit: maybe it would with the belt removed....

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Would a typical recovery guy know or even care?

Even if he was told would he do it? Given the horror stories you read at times how many would spend an extra few minutes or whatever when they're always under severe time pressures?

[Talbot]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:39, chadders said:

Would a typical recovery guy know or even care?

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I didn't mean for a recovery guy...

[Yoss]

  On 28/09/2024 at 19:34, reb said:

This particular model isn't very good at knowing what specific vehicles looks like unfortunately 

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I can understand AI not knowing what an Invacar looks like but it really should be able to spell lightbulb! I don't think we need to worry about AI taking over the world just yet. 

Incidentally, the car in tow does look remarkably like a Mazda Carol. 

[chadders]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:40, Talbot said:

I didn't mean for a recovery guy...

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Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of when/if it broke down in London.

[Mr Pastry]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:21, Talbot said:

Edit: maybe it would with the belt removed....

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ISTR this was what the approved repairers did, but surely it would be ok with the belt in place at least for a short tow as long as it remained in neutral ?  It is basically operated by the speed of the input shaft, so it would just stay in low gear.  Even if it managed to get into high gear I can't see it being catastrophic as it must be able to cope with overrun conditions.

[Dobloseven]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:56, Mr Pastry said:

ISTR this was what the approved repairers did, but surely it would be ok with the belt in place at least for a short tow as long as it remained in neutral ?  It is basically operated by the speed of the input shaft, so it would just stay in low gear.  Even if it managed to get into high gear I can't see it being catastrophic as it must be able to cope with overrun conditions.

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IIRC ,on the model 70,the engine has a centrifugal clutch connected to the CVT which then drives the diff via a simple" gearbox" which has positions for forward,reverse and neutral,with a chain drive for one direction and a train of three gears for the other.If it was in neutral, it'd be just the same as a vehicle with a manual transmission,towing wise.Come on Dez,tell me if I've got this wrong.Are there towing dollies that can cope with three wheelers?

[plasticvandan]

There are single wheel dollies used for three wheeler towing,but none of the recovery services.will have them. Realistically the only way it can be recovered is on a flatbed.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

  On 28/09/2024 at 23:18, LightBulbFun said:

this was the 22nd of December 2021, about 6PM? was quite nice actually  

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That's  a cracking shot. 

[Mr Pastry]

  On 29/09/2024 at 11:06, Dobloseven said:

IIRC ,on the model 70,the engine has a centrifugal clutch connected to the CVT which then drives the diff via a simple" gearbox" which has positions for forward,reverse and neutral,with a chain drive for one direction and a train of three gears for the other.If it was in neutral, it'd be just the same as a vehicle with a manual transmission,towing wise.Come on Dez,tell me if I've got this wrong.Are there towing dollies that can cope with three wheelers?

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The forward-neutral reverse box is between the engine and the CVT, surprisingly, so the CVT has to run both ways, but yes, in neutral surely it would just idle..

[GingerNuttz]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:43, Yoss said:

I can understand AI not knowing what an Invacar looks like but it really should be able to spell lightbulb! I don't think we need to worry about AI taking over the world just yet. 

Incidentally, the car in tow does look remarkably like a Mazda Carol. 

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Because it's invacare and not invacar.

 

[alcyonecorporation]

  On 27/09/2024 at 14:51, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

And if YOU don't like it you can fuck off yourself!  It's not me shouting at the regulars, I'm the one who's being told to shut up for calling out bullies.... by the way, I too am a regular since joining, as for the forum not being for Invacars look at the bloody title!  Now get back in your box, I won't be bullied! 

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BULLYING 

[reb]

  On 29/09/2024 at 12:43, alcyonecorporation said:

BULLYING 

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[Mr Pastry]

  On 28/09/2024 at 06:28, Christine said:

 

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I think those videos illustrate the limitations of the single- wheel- in - front layout very well.

The weight transfer on emergency stop is obvious.  Fitting a more powerful front brake would just cause the wheel to lock, and with the weight coming off the rears they would probably lock as well - thence a three wheel skid with not much steering.  The Mod 70  has a single leading shoe front brake, when twin leading shoes could have been fitted easily,  Clearly it was deliberate.

Now consider what happens when turning.  You have to slow down to turn, if you don't the front wheel will scrub off speed anyway, and again the weight transfers forward but it will tend to move in a straight line.  So it will transfer towards the outside corner of the car - right side if turning left - which is not supported by a wheel.  This is when it starts to roll, and braking heavily at that point will make matters worse.

You can restrict the roll by stiffening the rear suspension, but because the weight is transferring to the front the effect will be limited, and if you stiffen the suspension too much the thing will just go up onto two wheels, before it tips over.  The designer has to allow enough roll for the driver to become aware of the situation and remain in control.  

A three wheeler with two wheels in front is inherently a lot more stable.

[captain_70s]

  On 29/09/2024 at 13:53, Mr Pastry said:

A three wheeler with two wheels in front is inherently a lot more stable.

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I suspect one wheel up front was chosen because it always feels a bit sketchy and stops the average Joe from pushing on too hard.

One wheel behind feels more stable right up until it isn't, and good luck correcting unexpected snap oversteer with a tiller or handlebars...

[SiC]

  On 29/09/2024 at 13:58, captain_70s said:

I suspect one wheel up front was chosen because it always feels a bit sketchy and stops the average Joe from pushing on too hard.

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Cost maybe too? Cheaper to have a bunch of pushrods for a front tiller than a rack and pinon. 

It was well known even back in the 50s/60s/etc when these were designed that a single rear wheel was stable than a front single wheel. No doubt why the Morgan chose it's three wheeler layout as it did. However even that isn't completely stable as Freddie Flintoff can attest to. Apparently he was only going 22mph when he rolled that Morgan Super 3.

Shame the Morgan 3 are so much money. There is a club near here and I often see them show up at the local meets. From brand new ones to pre-war examples. They look like an absolute blast.

[Mr Pastry]

It's just better to have four wheels really.  I think the trike layout was probably adequate for the Villers engined invacars, but the model 70 maybe has a bit more power and performance than the chassis can handle.  

[Dobloseven]

  On 29/09/2024 at 13:58, captain_70s said:

I suspect one wheel up front was chosen because it always feels a bit sketchy and stops the average Joe from pushing on too hard.

One wheel behind feels more stable right up until it isn't, and good luck correcting unexpected snap oversteer with a tiller or handlebars...

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Surely the single front wheel would be lighter to turn and easier to adapt to the various different control arrangements.Many Invacar users were severely disabled perhaps from fighting for King and country,or victims of a debilitating disease.LBF points out occasionally that a Model 70 could theoretically be driven by someone with one hand and nothing else 

[Christine]

I think a 1 armed lady might not have the strength to push pull  a  tiller  steering   2 front  wheels too .  Women do like to steer when stationary....

 

Oh beaten to it !

[LightBulbFun]

  On 29/09/2024 at 09:21, Talbot said:

An actual technical question about the model70.

Does it have anywhere an A-frame could actually attach to, and if so, will the drive train tolerate being dragged down the road at 60mph?  I seem to recall that it probably would not due to the cvt belt drive being driven backwards.

Edit: maybe it would with the belt removed....

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this is what the front of a Model 70 looks like without any bodywork, I am not seeing any real good points for an A frame, but I have 0 experience in that sort of thing, hence why I post this picture, so you can have a look for yourself  

regarding the CVT system, due to the fairly unique way in that its all laid out, the CVT system remains coupled at all times, even if you put it in N the CVT system will still spin if ya drag the car down the road 

since the driveline goes engine-Clutch-F/N/RGearbox-CVT-System-differential-road-wheels so as you can see even if ya stick it in N, the road-wheels will still back-drive the CVT system, so as you say what most Approved Repairers did was cut/remove the drive belt (this also removed the drag of the whole system as well)

it does mean 1 pulley will still be turning on its own, but I dont *think* that will do it any harm

Ill also include a link to the full workshop manual as it includes a detailed teardown of the gearbox system

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/DHSS-Workshop-Manual-For-The-Model-70-Three-Wheeler.pdf

as far I can tell from it theres no need to worry about any pumps or such that only run when the engine is running etc

 

back in the they just cradled the front wheel in a special dolly like so

 

 

 

[Dobloseven]

Wonder if the back wheels could be put on a towing dolly? Thinking about it, though,it wouldn't need much of a trailer to carry one,would it?

[Dobloseven]

  On 29/09/2024 at 14:53, LightBulbFun said:

this is what the front of a Model 70 looks like without any bodywork, I am not seeing any real good points for an A frame, but I have 0 experience in that sort of thing, hence why I post this picture, so you can have a look for yourself  

regarding the CVT system, due to the fairly unique way in that its all laid out, the CVT system remains coupled at all times, even if you put it in N the CVT system will still spin if ya drag the car down the road 

since the driveline goes engine-Clutch-F/N/RGearbox-CVT-System-differential-road-wheels so as you can see even if ya stick it in N, the road-wheels will still back-drive the CVT system, so as you say what most Approved Repairers did was cut/remove the drive belt (this also removed the drag of the whole system as well)

it does mean 1 pulley will still be turning on its own, but I dont *think* that will do it any harm

Ill also include a link to the full workshop manual as it includes a detailed teardown of the gearbox system

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/DHSS-Workshop-Manual-For-The-Model-70-Three-Wheeler.pdf

as far I can tell from it theres no need to worry about any pumps or such that only run when the engine is running etc

 

back in the they just cradled the front wheel in a special dolly like so

 

 

 

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That looks like something that fits into a 2" receiver on the truck towbar, with the truck taking the weight of the front of the car.As always,HTBC.They'll be telling you to buy a Dodge Ram next,Dez!

[reb]

  On 29/09/2024 at 15:24, Dobloseven said:

That looks like something that fits into a 2" receiver on the truck towbar, with the truck taking the weight of the front of the car.As always,HTBC.They'll be telling you to buy a Dodge Ram next,Dez!

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I think he should buy an F150 instead 

[LightBulbFun]

speaking of vehicles I should buy next! I have been informed that OVW445P has gone off to a new home! this is fairly significant, as OVW445P is one of the cars from the original bundle that @dollywobbler and @Zelandeth's TWC and TPA came from, so hopefully before not too long, another of their stablemates will be joining the road with them  our very own @st185cs and @brummiejon was there to see the handover of sorts and the most exciting bit about this for me personally, is as you may see in the background, John the chap with OVW, has a collection of vintage FX4 London black Cabs, very much looking forward to that, if nothing else!  

[Cavcraft]

  On 29/09/2024 at 14:53, LightBulbFun said:

this is what the front of a Model 70 looks like without any bodywork, I am not seeing any real good points for an A frame, but I have 0 experience in that sort of thing, hence why I post this picture, so you can have a look for yourself  

regarding the CVT system, due to the fairly unique way in that its all laid out, the CVT system remains coupled at all times, even if you put it in N the CVT system will still spin if ya drag the car down the road 

since the driveline goes engine-Clutch-F/N/RGearbox-CVT-System-differential-road-wheels so as you can see even if ya stick it in N, the road-wheels will still back-drive the CVT system, so as you say what most Approved Repairers did was cut/remove the drive belt (this also removed the drag of the whole system as well)

it does mean 1 pulley will still be turning on its own, but I dont *think* that will do it any harm

Ill also include a link to the full workshop manual as it includes a detailed teardown of the gearbox system

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/DHSS-Workshop-Manual-For-The-Model-70-Three-Wheeler.pdf

as far I can tell from it theres no need to worry about any pumps or such that only run when the engine is running etc

 

back in the they just cradled the front wheel in a special dolly like so

 

 

 

 

 

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Is that a coach or HGV wheel in the garage? it looks enormous next to the chassis!

 

Looks like you're running crossplies on the Invacar, are they 520.10s?

 

[Talbot]

Next query... what is the weight on the front wheel?  I know it's 410kg overall, and that is fairly rear-biased.. but is it likely to be 150 front and 250 rear, or maybe nearer 100 front and 300 rear?

Putting together a horrible plan...

[barefoot]

  On 29/09/2024 at 16:32, Talbot said:

Putting together a horrible plan...

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...to make it into a trailer?