invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

I see the Model Model 70's went on sale a few days ago  a bit expensive but I do understand the work that goes into these low volume productions, I will defo have to pick one up at some point when I can afford it

 

https://samsmodelcars.com/product/ac-invacar-model-70/

 

 

its a very good reproduction my only "issues" with it is because the guy used TWC for the design, the hard top gasket is missing and it has clear front indicator lenses but ill take that over no Model Model 70!

[egg]

It is is impressive. Maybe the hinges on engine cover and front 'bonnet' could be painted silver?

Assume there should be a wing mirror in that hole on the front too?

[LightBulbFun]

Oh yeah the wing mirror is missing, yeah im guessing 1 is meant to go there as you say 

as for the hinges, depends on the specific Model 70 most have painted hinges, im not sure if Model 70's came with painted hinges from the factory or not, but certainly most these days have painted hinges!

 

on a separate note I was looking at this picture of MPH759P for information on bonnet stays (while REV451R has a straight rod bonnet stay @Mrs6C noticed Dolly (OPH868R) despite being newer then REV has the known Hoop style bonnet stay, so I have been looking for engine bay pictures to see if the straight bonnet stay was a change Invacar implemented that AC decided not to implement) 

 

 

and I noticed, is MPH759P missing her air filter? I hope brian has not been running around with no air filter!

 

I have sent brian a text incase he has been unaware

[LightBulbFun]

ok yeah good thing I spotted that as he confirmed he is missing the filter but he said it runs fine without it!

yeah it will run fine without it, until something gets sucked into the engine and its game over!

so i told him that and linked him to a replacement filter on ebay and told him to get one ASAP

hopefully he heeds my warning and replaces the air filter

[plasticvandan]

It's the first model of an invalid carriage made,I'm quite glad I suggested it now  I'm glad he didn't reproduce the 2cv door handles. A bit of further detailing,different number plates would really set it off

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

It's the first model of an invalid carriage made,I'm quite glad I suggested it now  I'm glad he didn't reproduce the 2cv door handles. A bit of further detailing,different number plates would really set it off

yes indeed! im happy to see he chose the correct door handles at least as I was worried he would replicate the 2CV door handles that TWC has

indeed I wonder if he will do variations with 10 inch wheels and the factory rear lights  (another side affect of being modeled by TWC was the Model has the later 1990s+ rear lights)

[plasticvandan]

I've wanted to make a large (say 1/8 scale) model of a Tippen for some time now,might be good project for winter

[LightBulbFun]

so I noticed some interesting things in regards to this whole bonnet stay thing,

for those not quite in the loop (pun fully intended ) 

it looked like Model 70's had a hoop style bonnet stay a seen on TPA here

 

however when me and Zel where going over REV we noticed that she had a diffrent style of bonnet stay, which is just a straight rod of sorts, but was clearly made so rather then a later modification as there is a dedicated spot moulded in the fibreglass for it to rest when not in use, which TPA does not have

 

so at first I thought, oh they must of switched styles at some point during production, however @Mrs6C noticed Dolly (OPH868R) has a hoop style bonnet stay

so I was wondering was the straight bonnet stay something only invacar changed, and did AC decide to stick with the Hoop style bonnet stay?

well sadly I dont have many engine bay shots but here's what I can say

as you can see here OPH8686R (Dolly) a fairly late AC Model 70 does not have any provisions for the straight style bonnet stay

 

where as ATW722L an early invacar Model 70 with a hoop style bonnet stay, has a provision for the straight style bonnet stay to be installed however the hole for it is not drilled out on the indent for it

 

and for some more comparisons

VAV1L (MPD553P) a later AC Model 70 has the hoop style arrangement with NO provision for the straight bonnet stay style

(note the lack of indent for it on the body work above the engine)

 

however TWCs rear body work does not have any provision for a straight style bonnet stay 

 

 

and for those wondering about an Early AC Model 70, RRE20L does not have the indentation either

 

so from what I can tell, it looks like AC from the start of Model 70 production to the end of Model 70 production stuck with the Hoop style bonnet stay

but Invacar at some point made provisions for the straight style bonnet stay and then eventually switched over to using it (assuming ATW722Ls rear body work is orignial, and im not sure what to say about TWCs lack of a indent, given her other anomalies I cant say if just really early Model 70's did not have it or not)

all this might give us another way to tell apart AC vs Invacar body panels apart

but of course there's the whole thing of body panels etc could of been swapped around

 

but its worth noting I have only seen Invacar Model 70's with the indentation, I have not come across any AC Model 70's with the indentation in the body work for a straight bonnet stay

 

which also makes me wonder about the new body that showed up on ebay as it has the indentation for the straight style bonnet stay

 

sadly with the relatively small sample of engine bay pictures I have its hard for me to draw a proper conclusion

[egg]

I have no engine cover stay :-(.

And neither does JBY

[LightBulbFun]

the picture is still very cool nonetheless  

Ill ask Fraser to see what sort of bonnet stay arrangement VES108S has, as REV451R aside, I dont actually have any other Late Invacar Model 70 engine bay shots

[LightBulbFun]

Fraser says VES108S has a Straight one whereas JPA had a hooped one

so at least I know REV451R is not just a 1 off oddity in that regard

[LightBulbFun]

On 7/28/2019 at 6:23 PM, busmansholiday said:

Ha, ha, don't bet on that. I posted that pic on Wobblers thread of one in Portsmouth just by accident. I've thousands of bus pics and quite often there's something interesting in the background, my last post on the background thread was a DS ambulance in London. 

Must really have a look at what I have, before global warming causes the planet to freeze over!!!

you must of inspired someone because this got uploaded to flicker recently!

https://flic.kr/p/2gAUUwy

AOO-L is not a block I knew about before now so im quite happy  ill figure out where it starts and ends and then go through them 1 by 1 as per normal in hopes of finding one whos chassis number I can pull to add to my list

(bonus Thorn Alpha 3 street light in shot too  )

[LightBulbFun]

the AOO-L  block is a unusually short

its only 45 Model 70's big I THINK (im not 100% sure as being an earlier block means there's less that show up on the DVLA at all, let alone into Chassis number look up range)

but luckily 1 did survive until 2003 so I was able to pull its chassis number for my records  

it looks like it spans from AOO315L to AOO359L (sadly the first one to show up is AOO318L and the last is AOO358L but we know from the above picture the block went to 359 at least)

(AOO313L and AOO364L are both fords with AOO314-317L and AOO359-363L not returning anything on the DVLA checker sadly)

on the upside I know what reg Invacar Model 70 2345 had  (although not technically verfied as its 1 of the regs that dont show up at all on the DVLA checker )

[LightBulbFun]

well this is interesting, I was poking around the source for the government MOT checker just incase I can find a way to get VIN numbers from it (Sadly I dont see anything )

but I noticed this interesting line

which got me wondering,  JNJ135L wont show up on the DVLA checker but does show up on the MOT checker so is the MOT checker getting the data for JNJ135L from another source?

well checking JNJ135L shows the vehicle data origin as the DVSA rather then the DVLA...

 

I wonder what that's about exactly...

 

(side note like WOO848S, JNJ135L is another Model 70 that has "Invalid vehicle" as both its Body type and its Model Type)

[quicksilver]

That's interesting as I've noticed myself that the MOT check site sometimes seems to use different data from the DVLA vehicle enquiry. I remember a Citroen CX that everywhere else said was diesel but the MOT check said was petrol (or vice versa) and the blue Maxi we looked at was on the DVLA system as an Austin but the MOT checker as a Rover (yes, a Rover Maxi - who knew such a thing existed?) 

[LightBulbFun]

interesting, that reminded me that JBY503J shows up correctly as Blue on the DVLA checker but incorrectly still shows up as Orange still on the MOT checker

so I Just checked where its data is from and it like JNJ135L says its data is from the DVSA rather then the DVLA

and interestingly TWC's data is from the DVSA as well, but TPA's is from the DVLA like REV 

I wonder if a vehicle has not been MOTed since the digital records began in 2005 that the MOT checker gets its Data from the DVLA instead of the DVSA which looks to be its prefered source?

it will be interesting to see if the source of vehicle data changes when TPA (or REV! )  finally gets an MOT

[captain_70s]

Well done on acquiring a decent looking example, chap.

Only just catching up on this thread.

[LightBulbFun]

9 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

Well done on acquiring a decent looking example, chap.

Only just catching up on this thread.

Thanks  I also recommend checking Six Cylinders thread from page 139 and onwards as there's a few more pictures there and also what happened to the second Model 70 that was bundled with REV 

and yeah I seemed to have accidently flown under the radar somewhat and bought it while everyone on the forum was on holiday or something such

(you, @dollywobbler and @SierraMikeHotel for starters! LOL)

[Christine]

2 hours ago, quicksilver said:

That's interesting as I've noticed myself that the MOT check site sometimes seems to use different data from the DVLA vehicle enquiry. I remember a Citroen CX that everywhere else said was diesel but the MOT check said was petrol (or vice versa) and the blue Maxi we looked at was on the DVLA system as an Austin but the MOT checker as a Rover (yes, a Rover Maxi - who knew such a thing existed?) 

Yep ,they were diesel.....

[LightBulbFun]

yay another new reg block to add to the ever growing list  

had a pleasant surprise that when I looked up BPU903L that It had survived until 2003! so I was able to pull a chassis number for the BPU-L block right away  saving me a lot of time since I did not have to go through the entire block to find one whos chassis number I can pull, but turns out that would not have really been a problem in this case as...

like AOO-L the BPU-L block is unusually short, at 35 cars I think in this case, (not quite the shortest block that honour goes to the VPG-S block from VPG243-269S), I think the block is from BPU900L to BPU934L (or BPU901L to BPU935L)

heres the video its from https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-invalid-carriage-1976-online

I have seen this video but that was in the early days of this thread, so I was double checking it just now, and happy I did  

(its interesting to note the guys concern about losing his adapted Mini and I never really thought about that but yeah I guess the adapted normal cars that where issued by the government would of been looked after by the invalid vehicle service like invacars where, so would've also been taken away from their users when the invalid vehicle service closed)

[LightBulbFun]

well this has been a fun couple hours!

 

I just had some more Model 70 Reg numbers whose chassis numbers I cant pull with my own tools, run via an official HPI check thing for me so I have their chassis numbers now  

I  have been able to add the GPU21N, GPU61N, GPU69N, GEV459N, GEV558N, UAR976S, and UAR977S to my list

 the "fun thing" is the GPU-N block, it runs from GPU21N to GPU69N

and is one is one that's been stumping me and stuart, and sadly none had survived into look up range with my personal tools so i'm very happy to have a few cars from the block to add to my list now

 thing about that block is it intertwines with the GEV-N block (even without chassis numbers we could see things overlapped by the date of first registrations)

for example looking at the chassis numbers, GPU61N in theory has the same chassis number as GEV492N, so I asked the person running numbers for me to run GPU61N for me

sadly none of the rest of the GEV-N block survived into look up range with my own personal tools so I couldn't  tell if GEV492N is just a odd one out like how WOO848S is an odd one out with the Chassis number of XEV87S

so I also asked the person running numbers for me to look up GEV459N and GEV558N which is the start and end of the GEV block

and well it none of it makes sense at all! for example GEV459N and GEV558N are only only 8 chassis numbers apart, but the GEV-N block is 100 Model 70's long!

the GPU-N and GEV-N blocks are a proper cluster fuck!

I think figuring out this cluster fuck will require me knowing the chassis numbers of all of the GEV-N and GPU-N cars, (or at least more then I do currently) and I dont think it would be reasonable for me to ask the person who runs numbers for me to look up about 150 Model 70's for me, so Figuring out this cluster will have to wait until I have direct access to a Proper HPI checker or the actual DVLA database somehow!

(Stuart thinks it might have something to do with that october 1974 is when the DVLA went from Local offices to a centralised thing apparently, and he thinks things may have gotten messed up by that, but I have only just got the info on GEV459N GEV558N and GPU61N just now and stuart is not online anymore, so it will be interesting to see what he says when he sees the new info)

 

oh and UAR-S sadly does not contain any private Model 70's it looks like UAR977S and UAR978S had their chassis numbers switched around somehow 

 

im very thankful to the person who is running proper HPI checks for me and stuart sends his thanks to that person as well 

[quicksilver]

The 1974 local government reorganisation is what I was thinking of as an explanation before I got to that bit. All registrations were reset at Gxx-N and issued in strict numerical order so there was no longer any possibility of reserving specific combinations. I guess what happened before was that Invacar would get a contract for say 100 cars and go to Essex council to reserve a block of 100 registrations before they had been built. After the reorganisation, registrations couldn't be reserved in advance so whenever a new Invacar was registered it had to have the next in the sequence and as they weren't put on the road in chassis number order the registrations are all over the place. That policy was quickly changed, largely due to complaints from bus and truck operators that they could no longer obtain registrations that matched their fleet numbers, and the previous system of reservations reinstated so this is possibly the only batch of Invacars affected. You might also find some other non-Invacars in the middle of those batches that were registered at the same time.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Ahh that is exactly the sort of answer I was hoping for!  

interesting that explains it pretty well, its interesting to hear how the registrations were reset to start with G (G for Government? LOL) 

although worth noting invacar managed to avoid having Random other cars in their blocks if thats the case, both GPU21N-69N and GEV459N-558N are unbroken blocks of invacars

in light of this info I had a look at the AC side of things from that time and its worth noting that the GPB-N block starts from GPB462N and ends at GPB661N like you say thats rather "just in time" rather then a neat round number that Invacar and Espcially AC like to do

(I noticed in general, that AC tend to do things a bit "neater" than invacar, like they will always try ands start a block from a round reg number for example etc)

on the Invacar front I also have GVX320N on my chassis number list I think the block goes from GVX225N-GVX324N, I have never really given it much thought otherwise, but given that its a early centralisation registration, ill go through it 1 by 1 and see if I notice any anomalies  

(edit: I wonder if AC/Invacar registered Model 70's that did not technical exist yet to get round the fact they suddenly could not reserve a block and avoid having random private cars in the middle, however id expect if that was the case that the entire block would have the same date of first registration)

 

just had a "oh holy shit I never noticed that before moment" while writing this post LOL but starting from that G reset in 1974, the first letter of every Invacar and AC Model 70 block goes up alphabetically, I never noticed that before!

both me and stuart have a gap in AC Model 70's we have TPE-S but the next block after that is VPG-S but theres gap of about 125 Model 70s in between the 2 (however UOI4719 is in this void)

I wonder if theres a UPE-S/UPG-S block? I will have to do some DVLA bashing and hope I can find something

 

[lanciamatt]

Regarding checking the cars on the dvla reg checker. If a car has been scrapped and put down as destroyed it generally doesn't show up on the tax checker, but the same car shows up on the mot history checker, when your checking some reg numbers, try putting in the mot checker they might pull some through. 

[quicksilver]

You'll find this site very informative as it lists when each combination was issued prior to the 1974 reorganisation: http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/reg-letters.htm

In general you'll notice that the first letter was also incremented alphabetically and then wrapped back to A when Y was reached. Vehicle registrations were really very organised in those days, unlike the mess we have now.

[busmansholiday]

As Quicksilver says, the 74 changes put a big spanner in many people's works. It was (and still is) not unusual for a company / operator / dealer to reserve a block of numbers but then either not use them or return them due to delays in construction delivery and they decide they want a newer batch of numbers. 

Plenty of examples of buses in Sheffield area where the batch has different reg numbers.

[quicksilver]

Another thing to note is that you shouldn't find any pre-1974 Invacars with 'HJ' or 'JN' registrations. Those were the old Southend Borough Council codes and only started being issued elsewhere in Essex after the Southend licensing office took over responsibility from both Southend Borough and Essex County.

[LightBulbFun]

49 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

Regarding checking the cars on the dvla reg checker. If a car has been scrapped and put down as destroyed it generally doesn't show up on the tax checker, but the same car shows up on the mot history checker, when your checking some reg numbers, try putting in the mot checker they might pull some through. 

most (hopefully all because AFAIK the CoD is only a fairly recent thing and it would be a crying shame if someone recently scrapped a Model 70!)  invacars that have been scrapped where done so before the CoD days, when you just had a tick box on the V5c that you would then send back to the DVLA and in this case they do still show up on the DVLA checker it seems thankfully despite being marked as scrapped

sadly the MOT checker gets grumpy and blocks you if you badger it with many registrations in quick succession 

but on that note I need to get JNJ135L ran via a HPI check, because like you describe it wont show up on the DVLA checker but it does show up on the MOT checker

(I really hope its not been scrapped as its a Private Model 70)

 

48 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

You'll find this site very informative as it lists when each combination was issued prior to the 1974 reorganisation: http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/reg-letters.htm

In general you'll notice that the first letter was also incremented alphabetically and then wrapped back to A when Y was reached. Vehicle registrations were really very organised in those days, unlike the mess we have now.

very cool thanks for the link  

46 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

As Quicksilver says, the 74 changes put a big spanner in many people's works. It was (and still is) not unusual for a company / operator / dealer to reserve a block of numbers but then either not use them or return them due to delays in construction delivery and they decide they want a newer batch of numbers. 

Plenty of examples of buses in Sheffield area where the batch has different reg numbers.

Yeah, being effectively very much fleet vehicles Invacars share a lot of the same sequential registration stuff like buses do  (I guess you could think of Invacars as Single seater buses in the way they were ordered, registried and even maintained!)

talk about dial-a-ride

41 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Another thing to note is that you shouldn't find any pre-1974 Invacars with 'HJ' or 'JN' registrations. Those were the old Southend Borough Council codes and only started being issued elsewhere in Essex after the Southend licensing office took over responsibility from both Southend Borough and Essex County.

interesting  and indeed HHJ-N is the first "HJ" block I have and TNJ-R is the first "NJ" block I have documented

(on that note JHJ548N is another private Model 70 I need to stick in the list of regs to be checked by proper HPI check, I can pull its chassis number thankfully with my tools, but im just a bit concerned by the fact its not been taxed since 2008 so I want to make sure its not been scrapped, it does show up on both the DVLA and MOT checkers so thats a good sign i think )

 

 

currently thinking about how I might go about finding out what the block after TPE-S would be

I think its either UPE-S or UPG-S but its trying to figuring out what its numbers would be

I can look things up like  UPE/UPG27S 127S 237S etc (and I have done so quickly just in case)

but the problem is I noticed that the very late Mode 70 blocks are normally under 100 cars long

so I could easily miss an entire block by going up in increments of 100

(for example VPG-S block is from only VPG243S to VPG269S, so if theoretically I was trying to find the VPG-S block and I went VPG40S 140 240 340S I would of blown right past it)

however I do know that there's a 121 car gap between TPE-S and VPG-S so It makes sense that if there's a block in there somewhere it would be 100 cars long

(but so far I have not found anything sadly)

[Mrs6C]

Go up in increments of 33? That should catch the short blocks you have found so far...

In other news, the 10" wheel with a tyre that holds air was collected from Zel this evening (thanks Zel!) and I met TPA 'in the plastic'!

The fuel hose clips arrived in the post and Six-cylinder found and has bought a stand-in fuel tank from eBay. Hopefully this will arrive before Saturday! My aim is to get Dolly mobile over the weekend!

[LightBulbFun]

yeah thats not a bad idea  Ill prolly do that, I look up hundreds of registrations on the DVLA checker on an almost weekly basis these days anyway so a hundred more or so shouldn't hurt!

Awesome glad you got the wheel/tyre and saw TPA

happy to hear the fuel  hose clips arrived and that you found something to act as a fuel tank, do you happen to have an electric fuel pump on hand we can rig up just in case there's issues with the mechanical pump? (I know we got Dolly running on the 20th of july but I cant recall if @Andyrew or @Slowsilver got her drawing fuel through)

I very much look forward to seeing dolly move under her own power especially to see how the steering wheel configuration handles compared to the handlebars setup

(driving instructors tell you to keep both hands on the wheel, good luck with that  )