Sold Stanky's Geep - fire sale

[chodweaver]

'...it will wheelie...'

 

Sent from my BV6000 using Tapatalk

[stuboy]

ohh im urging for one of these.... just need a drive.. and less arthritis

[Stanky]

I had some spare time today so decided to have a good look at which of the circuits on the master cylinder was leaking, leading to total lack of foot-operated braking. I suspected the rear circuit as this hadn't been done up as tight as the others. I employed my junior mechanic to press the pedal while I watched to see which union would squirt brake fluid into my eyes.

 

I was surprised to see that the 2 'side' circuits - rear brakes and front drivers side - were fine, and the crappy one was the underneath one which goes to the front passenger side.

 

This was the worst possible candidate - its a complete sod to get at, and the union screws in ever-so-slightly on the wonk, when you are working blind while you try and do it up. Added to which, the union has suffered at my clumsy hands and is a bit mangled. 

 

All that I could do was remove the whole master cylinder from the bulkhead, undo the two working joints then twist it around to get better access to the crap one. This came off without too much struggle, but in the end the only choice was to grab the mangled union with mole grips and brutally twist it off. Amazingly, the pipe didn't snap, and it did undo but its definitely had its day and I'll need to get a new union, cut it back and re-flare it. I've never done this before.

 

I think there is enough 'slack' in the brake line that if I cut the end off carefully there will be enough left to re-flare and reconnect it without having to run a new line. How hard is it to flare a copper brake pipe in situ? How do you cut the end off the pipe without squashing it? Is there a tool you use to cut the end off somehow? Pliers with do it, but squash the end won't they?

 

Am I right that you slide the union on, then flare the very end of the pipe, then slide the union back up so it covers the end and screw it onto the master cylinder?

 

Does anyone local have a pipe flaring kit I could borrow for some beers? Or possibly even the kit and expertise to use it without braking (excuse the pun) everything?

 

Also, how might I find out the unions I need to buy for the master cylinder I have? They seem to come in metric and imperial sizes and if the bleed nipple fiasco is anything to go by, the miniscule difference between a 3/8ths and a M10 is vital. both will fit, but only one will hold pressure. The Cylinder is a Girling 74660038.

[danthecapriman]

Huw, I’ve got a miniature hand flaring tool, it’s designed to be able to use on the vehicle. It comes with a selection of flares so you can get the right shaped ends.

 

To cut the pipe the best way is use a small pipe cutter, again, I’ve got one.

 

I’ve also got a roll of new copper brake pipe should you need it.

 

Might be best to chop off a short length and use it to practice with first then try it on the car.

I’ve used it before to flare a steel pipe on a BMW so it does work well!

Yes, you need to slide the new union onto the pipe (the correct way around) then flare the new end.

 

Your welcome to borrow it all if you like...

[Stanky]

Thanks Dan, that'd be brilliant. I'll give you a shout once I've worked out what unions I need to get and drop by one evening. Thanks again!

[danthecapriman]

Thanks Dan, that'd be brilliant. I'll give you a shout once I've worked out what unions I need to get and drop by one evening. Thanks again!

No bother mate.

 

I think new unions are about the only thing I haven’t got tbh!

I’ll dig the tool out tomorrow ready for whenever you need it.

[Stanky]

Brake flaring question.

 

DTCM very kindly lent me some brake pipe and a flaring kit with instructions. I have also watched a youtube video on this topic.

 

Why do i need to double flare the pipe? From what I've read its important, and the standard expected these days. Am i right that you slide the union on, then clamp the pipe in the clampy bit with a bit poking out. Put the adapter on for the correct pipe size, tighten it up til it won't do up any more, undo the pointy bit, slide the adapter out, tighten the pointy bit up again then its done?

 

The existing brake pipe ends are weird - they look like a snake has swallowed a golf ball - like this

-------{}-

 

The 'ball' bit is probably twice the diameter of the normal pipe. WTF is this? It doesn't look like either of the types the man in the video showed. Even the 'bubble' flare that sounded promising.

 

Its dark outside so I can't get a picture right now, can anyone help from my feeble description?

[Mally]

I will try, but it's not easy.

Your pipe as drawn looks incorrect, although I think 2CV may look like that?

If you cut one straight end off your sketch, up to the ball that to me would constitute a single flare.

For a double flare you first make a single flare, then use a different adaptor, or maybe the same one turned round depending what kit you are using, to squash the round bit concave.

Single flare has convex end, Double flare has concave end.

Tends to be convex in wheel cyl. Concave to attach to flexy hose, but this is not gospel there are many and varied ways.

Photo may help us both.

[Mally]

Just to add.

The length of pipe sticking out when you initially clamp it up is critical, and can result in the type of end you show.

I may be talking rubbish. Someone will let us know.

[Stanky]

Ok, more questions with pictures this time.

 

The existing brake pipe looks like this. Sort of like a bellend frankly

 

As you can see, the union is totally mangled which is the issue here. I set to with the cutter that Dan lent me and carefully cut the end off, taking as little off as possible because if I screw this up I'll have to take more off. I'm anticipating at least one screwup.

 

 

Then deployed the reamer (fnarr)

 

 

To tidy up the cut end.

 

 

So, that looks nice and clean now doesn't it?

 

Next, off to the shed to work out how to make a new end. From some reasearch I'm supposed to make a double flare, flaring it out then folding it back over on itself to make a double-thickness flared bit.

 

Yesterday I made a single flare, it looks like this

 

 

You clamp the pipe in the tool, then wind the pointy bit down. easy peasy.

 

To do a double one, I am supposed to lay the former edge-on to the clamping tool, then slide the pipe in, sitting it proud of the hole/countersunk bit so that it just touches the edge of the former, then clamp it in place. Then, take the former, poke the pokey bit down the brake pipe, then tighten up the pointy bit until it has squashed the pipe down and out. Then, undo it and take the former out.

 

Next, without unclamping the pipe, wind the pointy thing back down to fold the edges back over themselves. I end up with this, which looks less like a bellend and more like a trumpet to me.

 

 

 

You can see the former in the background here.

 

Next, up I fitted this into one of the new unions

 

 

 

and fitted it up in the master cylinder, nipping it up with a spanner, but not too tight.

 

 

which seems to fit OK and not move about or anything.

 

Have I done this right? Is that how its supposed to look? I think that by tightening up the union it will 'squish' the copper end between the steel union and the brass recess in the master cylinder, forming the seal. Is that right?

 

Why do the old ones and my one look different? Am I doing it wrong?

 

if anyone can comment to give me some guidance I'd be very grateful. I aim to do this 'for real' tomorrow morning, I;ve made about 6 dummy flares on the brake pipe Dan gave me and they are coming out consistently, but I;m not quite sure if this is how it should look.

 

Thanks!

[danthecapriman]

I think that’s wrong...

 

The ends you’ve made are female. The type you cut off (the original end) is a male, your bell end description being fairly accurate!

If you look inside the master cylinders fitting it’ll be a female shape. The ‘bell end’ flare on the pipe should be the opposite shape so they fit together perfectly. Once the union is tightened up the two will press into one another and form a tight seal. From the looks of the ones you’ve made it’d leak and not seal.

 

The ones you’ve made are good flares but the wrong type of flare for your needs, I think.

 

Edit; from the looks of it the original flare and your new ones would join together if you used a male and female union and seal up.

[danthecapriman]

The type you need the ‘bubble’ flare. Here’s a diagram of different flares. You’ve made the single and double but not the bubble ISO type.

 

https://goo.gl/images/53A1iy

 

This vid looks like it uses the same tool.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U4OEXpXjFGQ

[Stanky]

Ah Ok thanks - so i just need to do stage 1, with the former only? Makes sense, the Master Cylinder end is concave, like the pointy end of a bleed nipple would fit it perfectly.

[danthecapriman]

Ah Ok thanks - so i just need to do stage 1, with the former only? Makes sense, the Master Cylinder end is concave, like the pointy end of a bleed nipple would fit it perfectly.

From memory yes. It’s been some time since I’ve used that tool though!

[Mally]

Yes, forget the single, that works but is cheap and nasty, I only do them at the track when all I have is a phillips screwdriver!

You want the Bubble.

You will need the Double with a female nut, if you attach any pipes to a flexy hose.

[Stanky]

Threatened rain has failed to materialise so I took the opportunity to get out and fix the brakes on the Geep.

 

To begin with, i re-read the instructions for the flaring tool and had a go at making a male end on some more brake pipe offcuts. This was fairly straightforward - its just the first step of the double flare process then stop.

 

So, what do you do? First of all get the pipe on the geep and clamp it in the flaring tool. The former has notches in one edge, you need to lay this edge-on to the tool and make sure the pipe sits proud of the flaring tool edge so it just touches the indented bit of the notch

 

This is the pipe clamped in place ready for flaring, having been measured up with the former

 

 

Poke the pokey bit of the former down the pipe, then tighten the pointy bit of the flaring tool down until it meets strong resistance, without poking a hole in the rad with the end of the forming tool

 

 

Then realise you are a COMPLETE CRETIN because you've made a lovely flare on the end, but you didn't put the union on first did you? DID YOU? After all the nice people told you the one thing you needed to do, you forgot. Idiot.

 

So we cut the end off again and slid a union on

 

 

Then repeated the flaring process and got this

 

 

Which looks pretty similar to the old one, except we now have a non-mangled union to fit it to the master cylinder.

 

Next up, screw the new union carefully into the underneath of the master cylinder. This is a really fiddly job and much easier if you haven't yet attached the master cylinder to the bulkhead. This went in just fine and nipped up with an 11mm spanner. It should have been 1/4" but I don't seem to have any in the roughly 300 spanners I seem to own, other than a ring version which is no good because you can't get it off afterwards.

 

Then, slide the master cylinder back to its mounting point on the bulkhead, do it up so the brake pedal rod connects properly, screw in the other two brake lines to the side of the master cylinder (which is a lot easier as you can see what you're doing), nip then up with a 12mm spanner because they are the old ones and a different size then test the pedal.

 

Hooray! Resistance! I topped the master cylinder up with brake fluid and tested again, a bit better. The pedal doesn't exactly inspire confidence but its almost certainly got air in the system, and the lack of servo assistance means that there will always be an element of 'stamp and pray' with the braking system. Apparently its only borderline acceptable on a geep with a 1300cc engine so I'll have to take it for a drive up and down my drive to check.

 

I have discovered that if you squirt a bit of pez down the carb barrel from a washing up liquid bottle it starts a lot easier, so did that and got it running then went for a little tootle on private land* to see how the brake perform. Its nice to actually have brakes for a start, you get about 4" of travel where not a lot happens but give them a good shove and they do stop the geep promptly and without locking up or pulling to one side. I reckon I must have hit 30mph and it still pulls up happily. Might be different from 60mph on a wet road but they seem to function as intended. Bonus of not having to be an actual octopus to drive it any more, trying to balance clutch, handbrake, choke, gearstick and steering wheel simultaneously is a bit full-on TBQH.

 

So, now I have a running engine, working brakes, actual floor and working lights. its almost a real car now! Next up on the to-do list is:

 

- work out why the temp guage doesn't work

- connect up the speedo cable. Anyone know where this attaches to on a crossflow engine? Presumably the gearbox somewhere? I had a bit of a look but nothing obvious presented itself.

- Get 8 more wheelnuts so I can sack off the cheap-ass locking nuts and have 4 per wheel as Geoff Jago and Henry Ford intended

- Fit the other seat

- give it some exercise

 

I plan to take it over to the nearby airfield on tow to give it a bit of space to play, I need to contact the glider club and ask if they are OK with that really. its being redeveloped into an industrial estate so there is quite a bit of private road round there which is utterly dead at weekends so could be nice space to play in and give it a bit of a shakedown.

 

Thanks for reading, and big thanks to DTCM for letting me borrow the brake flaring kit, it really did make it all very easy, even for a hamfisted idiot like me.

 

 

[Guest Hooli]

Speedo cable is the side of the gearbox (near the back) from memory, but I can't recall what the connection looks like.

[Guest Hooli]

Is it road registered yet?

[danthecapriman]

Yay!! Well done Huw!

 

It’s not a bad little tool is it? Certainly very handy if your working on the car instead of a workbench.

I don’t use it much at all but when you need it it’s perfect.

[Angrydicky]

 This went in just fine and nipped up with an 11mm spanner. It should have been 1/4" but I don't seem to have any in the roughly 300 spanners I seem to own

7/16" AF 

[Stanky]

My wife suggested I look at trailers to move the Geep about which is far from the worst idea since ever. I'd like to take it to an offroad course to give it a bit of an opportunity to play around, and potentially elsewhere.

 

I have a post-97 licence which restricts me to a total weight of 3500kg, if we assume the tow vehicle is 1500kg and the Geep is 800kg thats 2300kg

 

What sort of trailer should I look for? Would an AA/RAC style dolly be suitable? Something that cradles the front wheels only and is nice and lightweight and easier to store, or a proper trailer that you drive up onto and is more robust, but heavier and more cumbersome? Realistically if I was going down this route the Geep would have to live on the trailer which concerns me - it becomes the easiest thing ever to steal if its on a trailer on my drive.

 

ebay is full of all sorts of homebrew efforts ranging from pretty good to utter deathtrap. I assume a braked trailer/dolly would be a must?

[mitsisigma01]

When did you fit the 4x4 system ?

[mitsisigma01]

Any progress on the registration process and has that hit a dead end ?

[SiC]

Aren't towing weights based on the GVW of the whole lot? I.e. if you have a car that has a max weight of 1500kg and a trailer that is capable of towing 2500kg (even if empty), the GVW will be 4000kg. Over the 3500kg limit of our licences.

 

I'd love to be proven wrong but that's what I'm aware of the legislation when I've read all the supporting info a couple of times.

[Faker]

Aren't towing weights based on the GVW of the whole lot? I.e. if you have a car that has a max weight of 1500kg and a trailer that is capable of towing 2500kg (even if empty), the GVW will be 4000kg. Over the 3500kg limit of our licences.

I'd love to be proven wrong but that's what I'm aware of the legislation when I've read all the supporting info a couple of times.

You are correct. If you haven't got the full +E category, your tow car and trailer combined weights are calculated by adding the gross (maximum allowed mass) for the car and the gross (maximum allowed mass) for the trailer. Very difficult (if not impossible) to stay under the 3.5 ton limit...

 

I've an octavia which has a kerb weight of 1380kg. It has a maximum allowed mass or gross vehicle weigh of 1900kg. The car itself has a train weight of 1400kg (the maximum it's allowed to tow - braked trailer). 1900 + 1400 = 3300 kg.

 

I can legally tow a C1 on a single axle Brian James lightweight car transporter.

[SiC]

Yeah I thought so. The problem is that there are very few trailers designed to take light (i.e. classic) cars and thus low MAM. Of those available on the market, none seem possible to rent.

[Faker]

Yeah I thought so. The problem is that there are very few trailers designed to take light (i.e. classic) cars and thus low MAM. Of those available on the market, none seem possible to rent.

You can get them... but they're costly (a smart car transporter - or one slightly bigger for behind mobile homes), are almost as expensive as a double axle full size transporter!

[Guest Hooli]

This will be utterly useless offroad, it's 2wd with an open diff. Add that to the clearance is lower than most 4x4s & all it'll do is get stuck with it's belly on the floor & one wheel spinning.

 

 

Hows the registration for the road going?

[Mally]

A good trailer is very expensive, a cheap  trailer may have you pulled up.

Dolly is only supposed to be used for breakdowns really.

It can be done under weight, 1300kg Gross trailer weighs 300kg ish empty. 

Tow car could then be up to 2,200 kg, but its very close.

Not one of your better ideas IMO.

[Stanky]

rats, thanks for the input guys.

 

road registering is proving to be challenging but not insurmountable.