Gooner II V6 - Reliable motoring at its finest*

[PhillipM]

WRT locking tools, I just used spare bolts/drill bits, there's holes in the head to peg into.

[Isaac Hunt]

I've done a few cambelts in my time, never my favourite job. I've used drill bits as locking pins.

 

One of my favourite techniques assuming a water pump replacement is not required, is as follows.

 

Using a Stanley knife (new blade not some old shitter) cut the old belt down the middle longitudinally turning the engine slowly until the belt is split in two. Then slide the outer half off the pulleys leaving the other half holding pulleys aligned. Then slide the new belt onto pulleys as far as it will go ( half way of course ). Then cut the remaining half of the old belt in half and remove it. Then push the new belt on fully and as they say en francais, eh voila, job est un goodun mon amis.

 

Now I've no idea of access on a Gooner 2 as to the viability of the cut n shut technique but it might help you.

 

Also, the tyre marking paint sticks are handy to have in a few colours to add lots of marks to pulleys to check alignment.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

those 'locking tools' are just a few metal pegs. If we knew what diameter they were, could just buy a bit of bar stock of the right size and chop off a few bits to make them.

[PhillipM]

Think they're 8mm, will check tommorow.

[SiC]

http://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/3454

 

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/281853332188?_mwBanner=1

 

Don't look that expensive. Probably can shift them on easily at half that price on a 406 forum too I bet.

 

[SiC]

That doesn't look fun at all.

That's the problem I'm facing at the moment. Autodata gets loaded up and they say naaaaaah.

 

Hopefully I'll have a bit more luck tomorrow with specialists.

 

Did read somewhere that it's reckoned stalling the engine is what causes the most shock to an engine and knackers the belt the most. If that's true, then being an auto it shouldn't be too bad state.

 

Really don't want to ruin a perfectly good car for the sake of a bit of maintainance though. As I got it cheap and well under even book price, I don't mind spending £600 or so getting it sorted.

 

Other half did moan today about me wanting to keep the miles down until I get the belts done ... "why do you keep buying cars that need work before you let us use them properly as dailys"?

[fraser.innes.3]

With GSF code parts come to £275. I'm getting the impression they really didn't want to do it...

 

Where about in the UK are you? I'm just trying to find a garage willing to do it!!

 

Do you know if they used any special locking tools? I can't see anything extraordinary about it, apart from maybe a couple of tools to lock the cams.

The cheapest that I found the locking toolset was £125. As long as you are careful it should be able to do without engine removal. Unless you have a scenic that is.

 

I can do the Renault 16v engine in about 4 hours, so a couple of extra cams shouldn't add more than a couple of hours.

 

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk

 

 

[doobietoo]

Just use cable ties to lock the sprockets one at the top and one at the bottom..... spend the £125 on hookers and coke...

[PhillipM]

That's no good, you need to unbolt the outers of the sprockets to move around - they have verniers fitted as standard - so you need the tool to lock the cam hub whilst you move the vernier outers.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

^^^^ I'm not sure thats right on the V6? (it is on the 4-cylinder though)

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I apologise, you're right

 

http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/pdfs/sealey/VS1213.PDF

[Rusty_Rocket]

I reckon some suitably sized drill bits would lock those cams together a treat.. (as someone above said). The cam pulleys are only 'floating' so the timing stays correct while the pulleys move a touch when you apply tension- they are not like that for fine vernier adjustment.

Only thing you might need to make is the 'timing check pin', which, as far as I can see, is a stepped rod that engages with a datum point behind each camshaft pulley. Looks like you do a final check with that after you're done and have turned the engine over by hand a few times.

All DIYable in my opinion !

[warren t claim]

Can't you just write the current mileage in yellow paint pen on the cambelt cover and pretend it's been done?

[SiC]

GPS Aerial came yesterday.

 

Pulled off back trim, pushed the antenna connector into the loom connector.

Drats, won't fit.

 

Removed plastic locking clip

 

Pulled off connector housing, to reveal the RF connector. Plugged the old connector housing back into the roof antenna connector, ready for the owner in 20 years time, when these are worth £LOL (maybe??) and wants to get everything back working originally.

 

Plugged in new antenna

 

Stuck the magnetic base onto the side of the car

 

Turned on Satnav and waited a minute. Hmm, no signal when boot lid shut. Probably an old GPS receiver design that isn't as sensitive as modern ones. Must be too shielded by the car body.

 

Try again...

 

Handily Renault put a big chunk of foam in the side trim that makes a perfect place to wedge the Antenna.

 

Looked at the Satnav.

We're no longer in France and back in Bristol. Result!

 

£5 eBay GPS Antenna ftw. Renault want around £125 for a new Sharkfin roof antenna.

 

It cuts in an out a bit at the moment, and needs a good hour or so switched on to allow the GPS almanac data to fully download. GPS system is fully receive only and the receiver needs to know where GPS satellites are and where they are going. The GPS almanac data is slowly transmitted over a 15 minute period with all this data for the next 7 days or so. Once its got this data, when you switch the GPS receivers back on, they can lock onto a location a lot quicker (hot start).

[tooSavvy]

Simple AWE.....

 

TS

[Lacquer Peel]

Sorry if it's been mentioned already but someone on here mentioned locking the pulleys on an Alfa V6 with mole grips, would that work here?

[SiC]

Ooook

Went down to my local and nearest Renault specialist, Renatech. Quoted a much more realistic £695 for cambelt+aux belt+tensioners+waterpump+coolant all-in.

Seems a lot, but if I DIY, then parts £300, locking tools £70 - call it £400 including other odds and ends. So +£300 to get someone else to do it and have a bit of paper saying so.

But then this one popped up on my previous eBay history.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-Laguna-3-0-V6-24v-auto-Initiale-/322075850461

For £200 more than a cambelt change, I can buy a whole replacement car - complete with replaced cambelt. (£500 p/a tax on that one though...) It has made me wonder about just running it until it snaps, even if that feels wrong.

It'll be my luck that I'll get my cambelt done and 2 months later the badgerbox craps itself. 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Have to say, £500/year tax would rule me out, I expect to pay 280 or whatever but 500 is just over the line for me.

[SiC]

Yeah, £500 p/a tax would be pretty hard to stomach.

 

 

Ok, here is a little riddle.

 

This engine is incredibly similar to PSA - same design, same internals, same locking tools, same cambelt kits. Going on the wikipedia page, based on BHP, it looks like mine is the ES9J4s - https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moteur_V6_PSA_ES_/_Renault_L

 

Cambelt intervals (based on autodata)

 

Renault say 72.5k miles/5 years on all their v6s.

 

Peugeot really can't make their mind up.

1999-2004 406 ES9J4S (XFX) - (normal conditions) 72.5k/10yrs (adverse) 72.5k/5yrs.

2000-2004 607 ES9J4S (XFX) - (normal conditions) 93.5k/10yrs (adverse) 72.5k/10yrs.

2004-2009 607 ES9A (XFV) - (normal) 150k/10yrs (adverse) 112k/10 years.

 

Now on the belt kits, Dayco offer the same belt kit for all the variants - both Renault, Peugeot & Citroen - ES9J4S, ES9A.

http://web.daycogarage.com/catalogue/en-us/search-product-by-code?t=2&c=7701473569&a=1

 

Makes me wonder if they've extended the periods as time went on from real world testing??

 

Either way mine is out on date, but only by half a year. How much out on mileage depends on the model. This all matters, because if I'm 5 years and 20k over, then its risky. If I'm 6 months over and still got 1k miles left, then its not as much risk and worth chancing it.

[SiC]

The last thing I want to do is spend £695 on a belt change and then 3 months later the gearbag shits itself...

 

I'd rather wait to change it until I've got some new 'box fluid around it and see how it reacts to it. Getting the belt changed sooner was based on that its most probably 5 years over and 20k on Renault figures. However on Peugeot figures, its a bit different...

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I’m gonna say have a beer and forget about it till after your wedding. I reckon that what wears cambelts out is the cyclic fluctuations in the tension as the engine is running, plus made worse by a lot of stalling and/or an oil leak. I think the fluctuations would be worst on a four-cylinder single cam 16v engine like a Rover 216. I reckon stalling the engine must be very bad for them too. I think on a four-cam 24v V6 engine the fluctuations are going to be much less as there is more going on per engine revolution and the various torque changes in the camshafts spinning will smooth out the overall load in the cam belt, so overall I think the cambelt on one of these is not massively loaded (it looks a reasonably chunky belt on that 406 V6 pdf). Plus yours is an auto, so no stalling, plus I’m sure I remember R9UKE saying he’d never heard of one letting go ever which reassures.

[scaryoldcortina]

Sometimes mileage isn't a good guide to belt condition. I recently did the belt on my daughter's fabia SDI because I knew for a fact it hadn't been touched in at least 60k and probably longer - I got given the car in the first place because the PO didn't want to pay out to get the belt done. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the belt or tensioners I removed. Other times, you go to do a scheduled change and find something impossibly shonky looking that should have snapped ages ago.

 

What I would do if it was my car is at least inspect the belt. I know that means some dismantling just to get at it but you can tell a lot from examining the state of the belt. If it looks reasonable and not stress cracked or striped on the back I'd put the covers back and just run it. Car isn't really worth the cost of the job. If it looks knackered, think harder about how much you like the car, and maybe do it then.

[Isaac Hunt]

I left a 1.4 K Series for 17 years. Mileage covered in that time was about 70k in that time. The belt was showing signs of deterioration as one might expect. My van I changed on age at about 6 years and 20k and the old belt looked like it came out of the box.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dave21478]

Sorry if it's been mentioned already but someone on here mentioned locking the pulleys on an Alfa V6 with mole grips, would that work here?

 

Works for me on Vauxhalls, but if this thing has vernier style pulleys I would think probably not.

 

[SiC]

Sound advice from Mr Bo11ox and SOC there, thanks guys.

 

As I typed the above about cambelt information, I was just thinking about getting those covers off to have a look. I have a bit of time first thing tomorrow morning to have a nose around. Hopefully they're relatively easily accessible, as I don't really want to faff about getting the Aux belt off. 

 

It's also in on the garage on Thursday too (fluid change), so I can keep the covers off and get a third opinion there.

 

As that's unlikely to have been changed either, that may give a reasonable indication of rubber deterioration too?

[cort16]

Potential stupid question alert but what's the different between a vernier style pulley and a normal pulley?

[dave21478]

A vernier pulley is a two-piece thing where the hub and outer rim are seperate and bolted together. The bolt holes are usually slotted to allow the outer to move position relative to the hub. A basic one needs to have the bolts slackened and shifted, a fancy one can shift "on the fly" via oil pressure or other means. This allows variable cam timing.

[Dave_Q]

The extension of the belt intervals will be nothing to do with any changes to the belt life, testing, or anything else except long intervals sell.

 

All the belts will be the same, but it's done to make a fleet manager think they'll never have to do the belt and they only need to change the oil every 20k.

[twosmoke300]

Beware of the floating crank / cam pulleys . If it has no key on the crank pulley you WILL need the correct crank locking tools .

 

PS I don't use drill bits anymore after cutting the insides of my wrists to shreds too many times

[stripped fred]

Very good advice on here, as always. Financially it doesn't make sense to change it unless it looks in poor condition. Better to put the £695 away in a savings account and 'if' the belt did break you have the funds to buy a whole new car! I know you're keen on the car at the moment but if you're anything like me you'll be bored and fancy a change in a year/month/week or two but you'll feel you have to keep it as you've sunk a chunk of money into it. I plan to change the belt on my 406 myself soon but for the moment I try not to think about it...