Swap 1993 Mercedes 190e - MOT Win

[billyboy406v6]

Throw it back at the grease monkey, its down to his spannering ??

[Felly Magic]

A mate's 230 TE grenaded after he did the head gasket, the camshaft snapped and I suspect he'd done something wrong when he bolted it back together. It wouldn't surprise me if your grease monkey hadn't put it back together properly tbh, could be wise to seek legal advice on this

[trigger]

Oh bollocks Daniel, that's shit news. I can't offer much advice other than it might be worth speaking to your garage and explaining the situation. I can't see them admitting to anything thing though.

[Tamworthbay]

I have no legal expertise in this area but I would think it would be very hard to prove anything even if they had done something wrong. Small claims is cheap enough but anything else is mega expensive and long winded. As Trigger suggested, worth chatting to the garage and see what they say - they might do a deal as a 'good will gesture'.

[mercrocker]

Really sorry to hear this,  absolute gut-wrencher after the money that has been spent.   Afraid 190Es are still not worth it financially but that doesn't stop me spending more than the car is worth every other year.   I hope you can get somewhere with the garage - do you frequent the 190E forum?   Quite a helpful place and not too up themselves.

[Jifflemon]

A mate's 230 TE grenaded after he did the head gasket, the camshaft snapped and I suspect he'd done something wrong when he bolted it back together. It wouldn't surprise me if your grease monkey hadn't put it back together properly tbh, could be wise to seek legal advice on this

 

^^ this.

 

Mention the complete failure to your spanner monkey and also advise you're going to have the work independently inspected.

In a small claims court, you only have to prove reasonable doubt not absolute cast iron proof.

Spanner monkey took it apart, 1000 miles later it implodes. Case closed.

[vulgalour]

 That's a rotten turn of events.  As above, contact the garage and explain what's happened.  1000 miles is nothing and that's a pretty bad failure to have occurred so soon after serious work.  Mistakes do happen, random failures do happen, so pointing the finger of blame shouldn't happen until you know where to point it.  Just getting the engine inspected to find out what's happened will help understand who or what is at fault.  It could even be failure of a new component, it happens, there seems to be a lot of poor quality stuff out there that looks for all the world like good quality pieces, OEM packaging or not.

[hauserplenty]

The timing chain tensioner requires a specific assembly procedure. If it is not completely disassembled, then reset, THEN reinstalled, you may have had incorrect tension on the chain from the start.

[egg]

Damn, sorry to hear.

 

Do you have legal cover through insurance or work etc? Might be worth checking out.

 

My brother has legal support through his job and got a free engine from a stealer following a cock up by the garage that led to HGF.

[BorniteIdentity]

I'm reading between the lines that the engine never quite felt right to OP even after all the work with the head, the timing and the breather system? Am I interpreting this correctly?

 

It had a lot done.

 

Head Gasket, Manifold Gasket, Water Pump, Alternator, Another alternator because the first wasn't ouputting over 2000 rpm, Distrubtor Cap + rotor arm, another rotor arm because something or another wasn't right.  In the process of making it run right I also shelled out £70 for an OVP relay for the car too and the breather pipes on the manifold.  

 

It still didn't feel great, with very little throttle response at the top, so I took it to a garage near work who charged me an hours labour and two of them went at it with a flashlight.  After that it was running better, but I'd say (having the benefit of jumping into another 125bhp car side by side) it still wasn't right.

 

I think it's managed about 750 miles, certainly no more than 2 takes of pez for it to grenade.

 

Here's my thought process: Timing chains do fail.  But if there was any sign of weakness, then it would surely have been noticed just 2 months ago?  He did admit that he was having bother finding tooling to break the link in the chain, but never explained how he managed it.  I did also stress like mad after I took the car back the first time that the tensioner needs to be properly reset.  (I learnt this from this forum).

 

Problem is, I quite like the bloke.  So i'm not going to go gung-ho.  Just tell him what's happened and see what he suggests.  If I HAVE to seek legal counsel, then so be it.  I think it's only fair to give him the opportunity first.

[carlo]

Every sympathy, this reminds me of a 405 I bought two or three years ago with a HGF problem which soon manifested itself.  I spent months and around £800 attempting to get it sorted, first by a trusted mechanic who fell ill, and completed by a local garage who put it back together, from where it never ran again ('low compression' apparently).  I was loathe to spend another penny on it, however I knew I loved the cars so just waited for the next one to turn up, and meanwhile robbed this one of all salvageable bits.  Yours seems even worse luck as at least it was running OK to start with, but maybe sometimes you have to say Fuck it and move on.  Depends on how good the rest of the car is I suppose.

[omegod]

That should have a duplex chain, and a meaty one at that. I'm guessing the link has gone. Sad outcome but 190e's values are increasing so it may be worth dropping another lump in

[BorniteIdentity]

That should have a duplex chain, and a meaty one at that. I'm guessing the link has gone. Sad outcome but 190e's values are increasing so it may be worth dropping another lump in

 

It looks like there are two chains - so that makes sense.  Maybe it's just slipped off and not fucked anything.  

 

Maybe the pope's a muslim.

[chaseracer]

Problem is, I quite like the bloke.  So i'm not going to go gung-ho.  Just tell him what's happened and see what he suggests.  If I HAVE to seek legal counsel, then so be it.  I think it's only fair to give him the opportunity first.

 

Fair enough, but this is how otherwise sound claims can eventually fail.  

 

By all means start negotiations at the 'friendly/informal' level, but protect your interests by taking appropriate advice ASAP from Trading Standards, trade union (if you're a member), CAB or solicitor.  Is your mech a member of a relevant trade association?

 

CAB info here: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repairing-a-car/problems-with-a-car-repair/

[BorniteIdentity]

Fair enough, but this is how otherwise sound claims can eventually fail.  

 

By all means start negotiations at the 'friendly/informal' level, but protect your interests by taking appropriate advice ASAP from Trading Standards, trade union (if you're a member), CAB or solicitor.  Is your mech a member of a relevant trade association?

 

CAB info here: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repairing-a-car/problems-with-a-car-repair/

 

Thanks for this.

 

I think it's only right to give him right of reply first of all.  If someone went "legal on my arse" immediately without conversation, I'd be more likely to give them a fight rather than just doing what I'd have done anyway.

[The Moog]

Only challenge you might get is that two different mechanics have looked at it. 

 

So number one could say it was number two and viceaversa. 

[Pete-M]

It had a lot done.

 

Head Gasket, Manifold Gasket, Water Pump, Alternator, Another alternator because the first wasn't ouputting over 2000 rpm, Distrubtor Cap + rotor arm, another rotor arm because something or another wasn't right. In the process of making it run right I also shelled out £70 for an OVP relay for the car too and the breather pipes on the manifold.

 

It still didn't feel great

I had a lot of these problems with the 190E I owned. So I scrapped it, the relief as it went off on its final journey was palpable.

 

You know when you buy a car you've always wanted and you're all excited about getting to drive it? When you have trouble sleeping the night before because you're finally getting to try the Mugwump Malarkey Mk7? I was like that waiting for them to tow the fucking 190E away.

[stripped fred]

If it's difficult to say who's at fault maybe you can meet halfway with you buying the parts and him providing the labour at a reduced price?

[richardmorris]

It doesn't look good. Call the citizens advice and see what your legal options are - you don't need to threaten the mechanic to start with. But to be honest, if it's failed because of his work then I wouldn't want to go back there.

 

 

This engine is in Peterborough for £200- -what size was yours?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Benz-190e-260e-w201-w124-m103-ENGINE-/111986544995?fits=Car+Make%3AMercedes-Benz%7CModel%3A190&hash=item1a12eb1163:g:EN4AAOSwbwlXATYC

 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Urgh, this sounds like a right nightmare. I can't offer any good advice really but going all 'LA LAW' on the ass of some clueless mechanic who didn't know how to set the timing chain tension properly rarely gets any sort of result IMO. I'd be looking to politely impress on him that he didn't know there was a tensioning procedure and the flippin thing has failed a fortnight after he put it all together, so what does he suggest in terms of fixing/replacing the engine at reasonable cost to you both, see what he offers to do. if he says 'nowt to do with me pal, soz' I think your redress options are unfortunately limited.

[BorniteIdentity]

It doesn't look good. Call the citizens advice and see what your legal options are - you don't need to threaten the mechanic to start with. But to be honest, if it's failed because of his work then I wouldn't want to go back there.

 

 

This engine is in Peterborough for £200- -what size was yours?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Benz-190e-260e-w201-w124-m103-ENGINE-/111986544995?fits=Car+Make%3AMercedes-Benz%7CModel%3A190&hash=item1a12eb1163:g:EN4AAOSwbwlXATYC

 

Update. Spoken to the mechanic. Was very gentle and he seemed as pissed off as me.

 

But

 

From what I gather... he got the timing chain off without breaking the link. I don't know because I'm thick as mince with cars, but I guess he just took it off in a loop and put it back.

 

He also wants to know why it's happened.

 

Anyway he's coming to the house to look at it later. Info about interference/non interference is limited so first step is to assess the damage.

 

PS. The 2.6 engine doesn't quite drop in to 4 cylinder cars without modification of the slam panel. Options are 1.8 2.0 or 2.3 to bolt on. 2.3 would be nice but you try finding one that's got sub moon miles. There's one on eBay at the moment with 327k!😂

[Dave_Q]

Probably possible to remove the sprocket from the cam and keep it intact.

 

*disclaimer - I've never actually worked on one of these*

 

Glad to hear your grease monkey is at least coming to look, hope you can get something acceptable sorted.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Sounds like he gives a fuck at least which is half the battle won already, Fingers crossed for you!

[omegod]

Could be wrong but i was under the impression in the 190 only Diesels had duplex chains?

 

i know my W124 has duplex but earlier versions had simplex

 

My old 190d had duplex.

 

You should be able to see removing your oil filler,but you may be able to see in where the valve cover has been damaged?

 

If the link has given way I am pretty sure the link goes through both so both will be separated.

 

Keep us posted we all want to see a good outcome from this

 

Just looked at the rocker cover pics it does look like there is another second chain behind the first?

 

 

Petrol models changed to Duplex chains around 87/88 I believe, warranty claims forced the change from what I remember. My old 89 was defo Duplex 

[BorniteIdentity]

Update.

 

I took a whole rocker cover off myself. And an air box. And everything. It's quite liberating knowing you can't possibly fuck things anymore. Anyway, tea and medals for me tonight.

 

Back to the car.

 

The chain had slipped completely from the sprocket. Properly off. It managed to smash the rocker cover in the process, something neither of us managed to do with a hammer and a healthy dose of anger. The chain had fallen off the front, making the removal of the cover difficult. Persistence paid off.

 

What's happened? In a nutshell the cam shaft is worn.

 

 

As is the sprocket.

 

 

Looks like what's happened is the chain jumped a tooth, got looser and completely came off.

 

The valves LOOK to be ok. It was difficult to understand by this stage, but they all looked the same height. This is good apparently.

 

Mechanic is semi positive. He wants to pressure test it, so I need to ask the AA to drag it to his place. If it's holding pressure then I think we're good to go. New cam shaft, sliders and tensioner will be required but he said he'd do the lot for £50 labour.

 

Please touch your wood on my behalf.

 

[Guest Hooli]

Valves the same height is good because a bent one won't normally slide fully back into the head, meaning it looks lower.

 

It does sound like the chain tensioner could be the issue, a slack chain would make it run shite (how you described it is the same as the problems we had on a mistimed fiesta) plus a slack chain means it snatches at every load (as the springs compress) which would hammer the woodruff key & keyway (the broken bits in your pic).

[richardmorris]

Fingers crossed for you!

 

I also have the attitude of working on my cars-well it's broke already, I can't make it any worse!

[SiC]

So as long as the cylinders aren't smashed it looks like, worse case, the head may need rebuilding? Has your mechanic got a borescope camera that he can stick down one of the plug holes, to check what its looking like underneath there?

[Pete-M]

I got the chain off my one without splitting the link.

 

I lost interest in repairing it when I remembered how horrible the thing was on the rare occurrences it actually worked.

[billyboy406v6]

Sorry to be a miserable git, but the guys mechanical skills were the reason this happened, so how can you trust him to fix it ?