Dave's shonkers - continuing electroshite

[SiC]

How are you finding S3 life?

I keep thinking about getting something 2.0TFSi. While they have their problems (as you know 😅), they are generally pretty solid unit that pull well down low, decent economy, quick and just generally nice engines to drive. 

Feeling a bit bummed that I hesitated and missed out on @Petrolize GTi. I had dismissed GTIs as they are either cheap buggered examples (modded badly especially )or expensive garage Queens (same price as a Mk6 or even S3). Also can't decide if I want a hatch or go with a Z4 coupe. Hatch is the safer option. 

Starting to look in earnest as I'm bored with the TT and fancy a change. Mrs SiC is unusually/surprisingly onboard with the idea too. I think it's because finally she sees me getting something a bit smarter, fashionable and modern. 🤣

[Matty]

52 minutes ago, SiC said:

How are you finding S3 life?

I keep thinking about getting something 2.0TFSi. While they have their problems (as you know 😅), they are generally pretty solid unit that pull well down low, decent economy, quick and just generally nice engines to drive. 

Feeling a bit bummed that I hesitated and missed out on @Petrolize GTi. I had dismissed GTIs as they are either cheap buggered examples (modded badly especially )or expensive garage Queens (same price as a Mk6 or even S3). Also can't decide if I want a hatch or go with a Z4 coupe. Hatch is the safer option. 

Starting to look in earnest as I'm bored with the TT and fancy a change. Mrs SiC is unusually/surprisingly onboard with the idea too. I think it's because finally she sees me getting something a bit smarter, fashionable and modern. 🤣

Well you know what I think 😁. In fairness its oranges and apples. Another fwd VAG product will feel much like the TT. The Z4 with that DI 3 litre engine feels special. Much more of an event. And the coupe is a proper hatch with a big practical boot.

Shame me and you are at opposite ends of the country, youd be more than welcome to borrow ours for the day.

[Dave_Q]

Yeah going well really, I never posted back after the snake oil. Result was that it did test 190psi for compression after the snake oil, but it's made no difference to the idle misfire. Perhaps the cylinder was still a bit wet with the stuff and it's not an accurate test.

I'm going to just live with it, it's not burning oil or fouling the plugs so it can't be that bad. I'm walnut blasting my mates TT which has R8 coils so I will borrow those and maybe put new plugs on just in case I get a miracle. And perhaps one day I might swap the injector from cyl 1 to 2 just in case there is some issue on #1 that didn't show up on the clean/test?

Life with it is pretty good really, I did get a speeding ticket last week and the android head unit keeps cutting out which is annoying but not really the cars fault.

I have been idly looking at sportbacks and saloon S3s but you're talking at least double the price.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266603094354

I did also start out looking at GTis but I thought they were very expensive for what they were. A high mileage mk5 with some issues should be like £1000 in my book but I guess they must break well. Seems like the absolute floor price for a running GTi is about £17-1800? And for a 3 door S3 I think the breakers pay about £3000.

Perhaps a massive generalisation but I felt the GTis in my distance range (which TBF includes Rochdale and Bradford) were rough cars that hadn't been looked after. S3s seemed to be better maintained. I'm sure you could get a nice GTi you'd be happy with but like you say lots of them are S3 money other than the odd bargain.

This one is more your end of the country than mine, it was for sale when I bought mine so might be open to offers. Big miles but looks like a clean standard car.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196175824762

[Dave_Q]

I do at least feel like I've learnt a lot about them, I certainly wouldn't buy another without doing a compression test and scanning it with VCDS.

[SiC]

5 hours ago, Matty said:

Well you know what I think 😁. In fairness its oranges and apples. Another fwd VAG product will feel much like the TT. The Z4 with that DI 3 litre engine feels special. Much more of an event. And the coupe is a proper hatch with a big practical boot.

Shame me and you are at opposite ends of the country, youd be more than welcome to borrow ours for the day.

S3 is Quattro

If I'm getting a Z4 Coupe, I want to spend out and get a really nice one. However they're more expensive than a GTI or S3. Plus only 2 seats. Don't forget that I should be getting my mums Cayman for a bit too. So will still have a Coupe that feels special.

As this is going to be a runaround (with occasional long distances) to replace the TT, I'm less bothered about getting a super clean bodywork Golf/etc. Also nothing to say I may replace the E320 in future for say a Z4 Coupe!

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

I did also start out looking at GTis but I thought they were very expensive for what they were. A high mileage mk5 with some issues should be like £1000 in my book but I guess they must break well. Seems like the absolute floor price for a running GTi is about £17-1800? And for a 3 door S3 I think the breakers pay about £3000.

Perhaps a massive generalisation but I felt the GTis in my distance range (which TBF includes Rochdale and Bradford) were rough cars that hadn't been looked after. S3s seemed to be better maintained. I'm sure you could get a nice GTi you'd be happy with but like you say lots of them are S3 money other than the odd bargain.

I went car shopping today. Missus was surprisingly keen about it too.

First was this Mk6 GTI: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202312214975226
Mostly as we were literally passing when coming back from the shops. First impressions was that Mrs SiC was surprised at how small it was. Now the Golf isn't that small a car, but its certainly smaller than our E320 and Civic Estate. Probably similar size to our TT really?
It was a firm no due to being a smoker car previously. Usual dealer thing where they said they would easily get the smell out. Ime it never truly goes away.
Didn't look much further but looking at those pictures above of the engine bay, it looks like its been fucked around with. So that would make it a no anyway.

 

Secondly was this Scirocco that was also nearby: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401095375002
Looked clean outside and interior was decent. Boot didn't open without some persuasion. Dealer bollocks was that you have to double press the boot release button (more like the boot struts are weak tbh). Passenger door window was open from the door handle not being fully seated inwards. Closed once I pushed the handle in. Started it up and there was a definite misfire / stumble when cold - dealer said TADIS when cold. Looking under the bonnet, I think these are the later EA888?

 

Third was this Scirocco that was a bit further away but only half hour or so: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202312174877137
DSG so a big bonus point to me for that. I like the white - I've never had a white car before either. Interior nice and exterior tidy. Started up and definitely no miss. Likewise looks to be a EA888 on this.
However it had sold about half hour or so before I turned up - so another no.

 

Mrs SiC much preferred the look of the Scirocco to the GTI. I tend to agree as it looks different rather than generic Golf but I prefer the interior of the GTI though. Boot is much more usable on the GTI as the Scirocco lip is enormous. However this is a runaround so I don't care that much about boot space.

 

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

This one is more your end of the country than mine, it was for sale when I bought mine so might be open to offers. Big miles but looks like a clean standard car.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196175824762

That definitely is on the higher end of miles. While I am not that bothered normally about high miles on a car (often prefer it), that is on the high end for what I've seen on TFSI. 120k-150k is fine in my mind, but I've rarely seen any that high without issues.

But looks extremely clean and I like the bright red of it. Only about an hour drive away so I may take a gander.

The S3 does appeal due to it being faster and also quattro. However both things make it more expensive to run. Also the interior on the S3 is standard corporate Audi and very much like my TT. Infact I'd wager the climate control and other bits are identical underneath to my TT. I kinda like the Golf as its a bit different inside compared to what I have. A major reason I'm changing is because I fancy a change.

Last owner change was May 2023, one before was in 2014 and 6 owners in total (according to UKVD). So current owner hasn't had it exactly that long though.

However it is a very reasonably priced car........................ 🙃

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

I do at least feel like I've learnt a lot about them, I certainly wouldn't buy another without doing a compression test and scanning it with VCDS.

I probably should bring my scantool if I go see them. That said, I reckon any misfire is easily heard by listening to the exhaust note. Most of the electrical stuff otherwise is pretty easy to fix on them. Another reason why I fancy VAG over a BMW is that I understand the electrical systems and design quirks on VAG so much more than BMW. 

Also depends how much I'm spending. I'd be more concerned if I was spending say £15-25k or maybe close to £10k. But sub £3k to £4k then a bit more prepared to take a punt.

 

I'm in no real rush though. I did want to get the TT MOT'd (earliest I could book in, is next month) to make that easier to sell and ideally get more for it. But then I might just chuck it up on here cheap as is.

[SiC]

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

This one is more your end of the country than mine, it was for sale when I bought mine so might be open to offers. Big miles but looks like a clean standard car.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196175824762

I've just noticed the Royal Mail sticker on the back - Red Post van. A nice touch 🤣

[sierraman]

Jesus is that how much a 14 year old Golf is these days?

[Matty]

Scirocco is probably a good shout @SiC. Seem much less likely to have been owned by tits and wasters.

[SiC]

17 minutes ago, sierraman said:

Jesus is that how much a 14 year old Golf is these days?

Yeah, they're about the same price as a 15 year old Focus is.

[sierraman]

1 minute ago, SiC said:

Yeah, they're about the same price as a 15 year old Focus is.

Christ. It’s not even like they look in outstanding condition either. Plus both of them would be like bringing home a bird half the pub has nailed, they will have been took within an inch. 😂

[Dave_Q]

5 minutes ago, sierraman said:

Jesus is that how much a 14 year old Golf is these days?

Most of these that Si is looking at are performance models, the GTI being roughly the equivalent of a Focus ST and a 2010 ST would appear to also be £4-8k. I'm sure you could get a An Car 2010 Golf with a petrol or tdi for £1500-2000.

@SiC I do like the look of a Scirocco, the rear seat wouldn't be great for me as I do actually transport 2 kids in booster seats in the back. I think you are going to struggle with the fact that the cars you're looking at are just a more valeted version of the private sale cars for a couple of grand less. I don't believe for a second that they all sound lumpy or misfire on idle, if you are paying a premium at a dealer the car needs to be right.

Enginewise t'internet says all mk6 Golf are EA888 except edition 35 which still use the CDL.

Maybe you could look for an edition 30 or 35, they come with an S3 engine so 260hp and presumably a few other goodies as well.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394935267890

I'm not sure that the EA888 is especially worse, it just trades some failure points (cam follower) for others (shitty cam chain)

[SiC]

5 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

I think you are going to struggle with the fact that the cars you're looking at are just a more valeted version of the private sale cars for a couple of grand less.

Yeah I always do struggle with dealers. I get annoyed with the bullshit they pass across and expect to believe. Problem is that I can't help myself to talk back when I should just ignore it and carry on.

Like you, I struggle to see the additional premium that the GTI badge gives. But then its always been the case that the Golf badge brings a premium to used car prices and the GTI on top even more so. I find the Golf GTI the iPhone of the sports car world. Not particuarly exciting or a unique choice but a safe one that ticks all the average sports car boxes well. Likewise the TT of the sports coupe world.

Also part of todays exercise was to gauges Mrs SiCs reaction. I kind of secretely want her to like it so she ends up using it all the time and we can sell her boring Civic Estate. 😂

7 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

Enginewise t'internet says all mk6 Golf are EA888 except edition 35 which still use the CDL.

I think all the Scirocco 2.0 might be EA888 too?

7 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

Maybe you could look for an edition 30 or 35, they come with an S3 engine so 260hp and presumably a few other goodies as well.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394935267890

I did see that online and think that was really nice. That is getting into Mk6 GTi and Z4 Coupe and other nice car money though. Not sure the additional premium is worth it.

13 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

I'm not sure that the EA888 is especially worse, it just trades some failure points (cam follower) for others (shitty cam chain)

True but then the cam follower is a piece of piss to change unlike the cam chain. The EA113 does have cam chain issues too but easier to deal with as just the one on top that is the problem. I guess I'm used to the EA113 and doesn't scare me as much due to VAG not cost engineering it quite to the same degree.

Reviews say the Scirocco drives very differently to the Golf. Golf being more composed but leading to the Scirocco more fun. Sat further back on the floorpan in the Scirocco compared to the Golf too.
Tbh I probably won't notice a difference...

Scirocco I imagine is going to be a lot harder to find as less were made.

[SiC]

55 minutes ago, sierraman said:

Plus both of them would be like bringing home a bird half the pub has nailed, they will have been took within an inch.

I would have no problem with that.

[Dave_Q]

3 minutes ago, SiC said:

I think all the Scirocco 2.0 might be EA888 too?

Wiki says similar to the mk6 Golf, the regular 2.0TSI is EA888 and the Scirocco R was EA113/CDL to the end. 

Looks like the R is rarer again though and commands a premium.

[SiC]

For those following along at home who aren't aware of the 2.0TFSi differences between the older EA113 and newer EA888, there is a rough guide of the major issues of each here: https://www.bar-tek-tuning.com/ea113-vs-ea888

The EA113 was developed in the early 90s and is based on the EA827 from the 1970s.

EA888 is pretty much a whole new design. Around 2009 it came out and had quite a few issues then which were ironed out over the years. Afaik they became mostly fully sorted by ~2012 onwards.

[Zelandeth]

We've had two Sciroccos as brand new company cars for one of our family, an R and a GTS.  Main thing I remember about both of them was that the dashboard rattled like it was out of a mid 90s Escort.  The GTS in particular had a plasticy buzz which appeared in sympathy to the (fake, piped into the cabin via the stereo) exhaust note whenever you used more than about 1/2 throttle.  The rear windscreen also collected gunk so quickly on a wet day and the wiper was so small that you may as well just not have the window there.

Granted...they both seemed a thousand times better put together than the TTs which followed which were both problem children from they day they were collected to the day they went back.

[SiC]

20 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

(fake, piped into the cabin via the stereo) exhaust note

Ah I didn't know VAG piped in sound - I thought they used a soundaktor to generate it. Afaik its basically a unit that vibrates the windscreen to the combustion sequence to make the cabin act as a large speaker. 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/what-the-vw-golf-r-gti-soundaktor-is-and-how-to-disable-it-104944.html

On this age I'm looking at, I don't think they would play engine noise through the stereo as they're from the Golf Mk5 and pretty basic things. Even if it has a soundaktor, thankfully VCDS can reduce/disable it if it gets annoying. A past colleague had a Polo GTI with one. He thought the car had loose trim but turned out to be that module turned up too high out of the factory.

Being its a runaround, I'm not that bothered if its a bit rattly and buzzy with flaws. Just need something reasonably quick, compentent and reasonably practical while not costing a huge amount to buy. I think a 2.0 TFSI Scirocco/Golf/A3/etc will fit that alright.

[SiC]

Curiosity got the better of me and I've sent a message on that red one 🫣

I asked if the clutch has ever been done, has Haldex fluid ever been changed, any write off markers and why is he selling. Even though it is a cheap car, hopefully not too many questions but all I think are legit things to know before bothering to see it. Especially as if no Haldex fluid changes ever means it's probably no longer a Quattro and clutch never been done probably means one soon at that mileage. 

Kinda want it mostly for the curiosity to see how a nearly 200k 2.0 TFSI has held up. 

[Dave_Q]

If it was nearer me I would have bought it instead of mine, as I like red.

[Dave_Q]

Car put the EML on today, codes for multiple/random misfire and misfire cylinder 1, as expected. 

I did think to check the fuel trims before deleting the codes as deleting the codes resets the fuel trims. I had some lingering thoughts that maybe it could still be the fuel injector somehow. 

Long term trim at idle of 0.3% is pretty good TBH. I did watch the short term trims and you can see it going negative when it misfires but I am now fairly certain that the injector is doing it's job correctly and the source must be mechanical or sparks, as surely if the injector was under/over injecting at idle you would see it in the long term trims?

@SiC what do you reckon? I still never did a leakdown test so will do that next when it's less freezing.

[Jazoli]

1 hour ago, Dave_Q said:

Car put the EML on today, codes for multiple/random misfire and misfire cylinder 1, as expected. 

I did think to check the fuel trims before deleting the codes as deleting the codes resets the fuel trims. I had some lingering thoughts that maybe it could still be the fuel injector somehow. 

Long term trim at idle of 0.3% is pretty good TBH. I did watch the short term trims and you can see it going negative when it misfires but I am now fairly certain that the injector is doing it's job correctly and the source must be mechanical or sparks, as surely if the injector was under/over injecting at idle you would see it in the long term trims?

@SiC what do you reckon? I still never did a leakdown test so will do that next when it's less freezing.

Sure it's not just a coil pack? Every petrol VAG I've owned has required replacements.

[Dave_Q]

4 minutes ago, Jazoli said:

Sure it's not just a coil pack? Every petrol VAG I've owned has required replacements.

When it first started doing it, I moved the coil from cylinder 1 to cylinder 2 and the misfire stayed on 1.

I guess all the coils could be marginal in a way that only shows up on #1, I am going to try another set of coils when I have my mates TT here to do the walnut blasting. 

It would be sensible to change the coils and plugs as a precaution but it's £100+ of parts.

[bangernomics]

Not something daft like the loom to the coil? If the coils aren’t moving the fault is the fault in the wiring? Trace to ecu and put a meter on the wiring perhaps?

Had similar weirdness with lpg conversions many years ago and turned out to be their piggybacked looms were causing voltage drops when they got hot.

[Dave_Q]

1 minute ago, bangernomics said:

Not something daft like the loom to the coil? If the coils aren’t moving the fault is the fault in the wiring? Trace to ecu and put a meter on the wiring perhaps?

Had similar weirdness with lpg conversions many years ago and turned out to be their piggybacked looms were causing voltage drops when they got hot.

That is on the list, my diagnostics have been limited to opening up the cover on the coil wiring and having a look, it seems fine, but I can't rule it out. 

#1 is the furthest away coil from the rest of the loom as well so could be most likely to be affected?

As far as I can tell, there isn't a separate sub-loom for the coils, the whole engine loom is one piece so it's not an easy job to just swap it out.

But I could do with finding some wiring diagrams and doing some metering as you say.

[bangernomics]

It’s an absolute chuff ache but if you have a tone tester you can figure it out with a bit less pain. Just pull the ecu as you’ll no doubt know.

Also looking at the resistance as it’s running can help depending on how it switches. You need a cobblers.

[EyesWeldedShut]

55 minutes ago, Jazoli said:

Sure it's not just a coil pack? Every petrol VAG I've owned has required replacements.

The only petrol VAG I've owned (still here) needed a coil pack and that cured missfire when under load & cold and a lumpy tickover when hot.  Blinking EML when missfire on cold.
Codes were for cylinders 2&3.  Probably the original coil pack at 77K miles.

That was a single coilpack for the whole lot and not the individual ones that you seem to have though.

[bangernomics]

For context I have also bought cool packs but for a fox, two sets as the quality ones that were ordered first didn’t cure it.

[SiC]

I don't have an answer but possibly more digging could be done. 

Is the misfire worse when the engine is warm or cold? Does it do it under load or just at idle?

Thinking here is is the cylinder sealing better/worse when hot. If worse under load then suggests ignition related as the coils/plugs are worked harder. If worse at idle then possibly injector spray pattern isn't great and under load it's spraying heavily at that point anyway so less of an issue. 

Not always there but on the standard VAG measuring blocks there should be cylinder counters on the number of misfires:

https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/010-019.html

That should help track them to answer the above questions. 

Worth having a look at the knock control and if it's pulling back the ignition timings:

https://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/020-029.html

 

Iirc some VAG ECU's allow you to test cylinder compression performance. In basic settings if there. Videos online showing how to do it an interpret the values. (might only be diesels that can do it) If you can do it through VCDS then can test easier when cold or straight after a run when smoking hot still (I.e. pullover on the side of the road to do it through the laptop). 

[SiC]

Let's not forget:

"What Is Engine Misfiring? Engine misfires happen when one of the cylinders does not produce sufficient spark or compression and lack of fuel. It could involve more than one cylinder. "

So the engine has tried firing that cylinder but for whatever reason it did not go bang. I believe the bang is picked up by looking at the engine rotation speed from the crank sensor. Some also do it by the coil voltage - a quick Google says VAG do this on some vehicles but not which. 

The fact it's repeating on cylinder 1 at least suggests it's unlikely to be intake or exhaust tracts - excluding valves (which it could be if they're not sealing). So not vac leaks/blocked exhaust. 

That leaves everything around cylinder one. If moving the coil and plugs doesn't change the cylinder then I'd highly suspect they're fine. Now that cylinder is a bit weaker and the coil could well be working harder, pushing it across the boundary to cause a misfire. So can't completely rule it out but I can't help think it's unlikely. Also if the other coils are also weak from age, the misfire count on those cylinders I'd expect be increasing too. Albeit maybe not enough to cause a misfire code. 

Given we know that cylinder has been down on compression, almost certainly from carbon build up, we know that there has been carbon issues in that cylinder. Perhaps caused by a faulty injector that is working enough to run the engine but not atomising well enough to prevent excess carbon (i.e. unburnt fuel)? I.e. that low compression is a symptom of running with a bad injector for a long period rather than the root cause. 

I can't remember if you've said, but has anything been done with the injectors? Both yourself and previous owners. Fully aware that removing direct injection injectors isn't a trivial task to test them. Not are they particularly cheap either. 

[SiC]

Make sure the connector contacts of both the ignition coil and injector are in good condition. Not only clicked firmly into place but the crimps are grabbing any inserted contacts strongly. Vibration of the engine can loosen these up over time. Or even worse, someone has been in before and poked in a multimeter probe and opened/loosened them up slightly.