Privilege!!!! a great article about shiting

[Inspector Morose]

Never had a breakdown in any of the shite I've had, the cheapy Rovers and Nissans, until I started buying modern Fiats. I'm keen to get stuff fixed and keep an eye and ear out for noises/knocking/overheating/oil use etc. Had to abandon a long journey because the wipers packed up (and it was raining hard) in my first Panda, and the one I have now doesn't start when it fancies. No EML, no warning, no pattern, just turns over and over and over. Think it's up to about 17 breakdowns now... I've lost count. Practically every electrical item is broken, but I'm past caring. It's getting run into the ground and then scrapped.

 

How strange. I've had a Panda for SWMBO now for seven odd years and it's yet to put a foot wrong. Goes to show some cars are good, some are bad. No rhyme no reason.

[mouseflakes]

I agree with Bolls on this. The article isn't saying one way is right while the other is wrong. It's just saying that the raw cost of one option or the other is only a small part of the equation. I think the author is using the word 'privilege' where perhaps 'advantage' might be better. He's just saying if you choose to run an old car, then there are many factors in life that may have influenced that choice. These factors may give you an advantage in making this choice work for you. Someone else who's been advised to try and do the same but doesn't have those same factors working in their favour may well find the tat option doesn't work for them.

EDIT: I could have just quoted MrB - he got it in a nutshell...

He's not saying that old cars are a rich persons hobby, he's just saying that certain boxes need to be ticked in your life for running them to be an option.

[John F]

This shouldn't even be a discussion IMO.

 

Some yank has spunked his opinion onto the Internet, and in time-honoured tradition the yank's opinion is little more than a thinly-veiled massive boast about how wealthy he is.

 

One way or the other, most of us here in the real world like tinkering with cars. This brings us a cash benefit because we can do most of the repairs ourselves. In the title of that ego-spunk, the yank claims that we can only do so because we are RICH. This may be so in the Land Of The Freeâ„¢, but over here it is arse gravy. It was also arse gravy in Eastern Europe before the wall came down, and we all know what avid spanner-monkeys they were back then, when even newish cars required a touch of the spanners from time to time.

Yes, OK, it is our choice to have old cars - but is that choice made in full acknowledgement that our vehicles will spend half of their lives on axle stands? No, absolutely not - in many cases, our 'old snotters' are more reliable and durable than the modern cars we are so often encouraged (by the uninitiated) to replace them with.

 

Are we 'privileged' to have an affinity with, and understanding of, auto mechanics? NO. We chose to spend our time messing with vehicles. Our ability to mend cars is in direct proportion to our input in learning about them. We have served our apprenticeship, as it were. It has nothing to do with being lucky or privileged, or whatever other perfectly good English word some gobshite yank wants to abuse in terms of its actual meaning.

 

Should we be pleased that we are well informed about vehicles, are are able to fix the ones we own? Yes, of course. But it's not due to mystic beneficial forces at work around us, wooo, it's down to our own efforts. Well done us.

[alf892]

I think this is getting to be a circular thread where the words posted actually agree with what someone else has posted but the writer thinks he is offering an alternative/opposing view because he has put his words in a different order.

 

Or something......

 

Anyway it happens a lot at work.

 

That and some need a reliable Yank to English translation.........

[JohnK]

I think upbringing has a lot to do with it. My childhood memories are of 13yr old Cortina's and my dad crawling around under a clapped out Sierra. We were skint, so didn't have a choice.

 

I made the choice to have a few old cars kicking about and to use them daily because it's my hobby and what I enjoy doing.

 

Many people 'must have new' and have been brought up that way. It's very difficult to change that persons perceptions that older can be just as good, if not better and more reliable.

 

To put into perspective, meet Charlie, he's 4. He loves messing about with my cars and even told his mum today that he was buying her a kitten for valentines day and I'm getting a rusty old car. He likes to get stuck in on basic tasks:

 

 

He's the next generation of Autoshiter. I hope he has a good job and a few quid behind him for his own sake, but I bet out of his own choice he will have older cars, because that's how he was brought up.

 

There's a general consensus that people with old cars are skint and maybe to a certain extent that's true. But I know people on minimum wage jobs with cars a lot newer than mine so it's not all that - finance is fairly easy to get for a lot of people these days with the likes of 'Welcome Car Credit' with their stupid interest rates.

 

Many more wealthy people have the money in the bank because of their choice to save money and drive an older car and maintain it themselves.

 

My own opinion anyway.

[dollywobbler]

I think this is getting to be a circular thread where the words posted actually agree with what someone else has posted but the writer thinks he is offering an alternative/opposing view because he has put his words in a different order.

 

Or something......

 

Anyway it happens a lot at work.

 

That and some need a reliable Yank to English translation.........

Aye. I'm guilty I think! There are two opinion - either you agree with it or you don't. I think my feelings are summed up by Tim Minchin's beat poem - Mitsubishi Colt.

[Bren]

I do wonder if things will come full circle.

 

As peoples living standards drop (don't listen to the politicians) how many people in future will be able to afford that new car?

 

Maybe people will go back to running old cars.

[John F]

Bren, on 12 Feb 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

I do wonder if things will come full circle.

 

As peoples living standards drop (don't listen to the politicians) how many people in future will be able to afford that new car?

 

Maybe people will go back to running old cars.

 

I wonder how well today's 'new' cars will cope with being old... the auto mechanic of the future might end up being some geeky programmer downloading gearbox repair patches in a darkened room...

[Pete-M]

I've run hundreds of so called old expensive to run cars over the years. Mainly on a repair budget of £500 / year Including servicing.

 

Most of my old snotters have been cars people consider to be mega expensive to run because they use more fuel than a modern diesel And tend to cost a bit to insure. So they spend more than I pay for my 15 year old top of the range battle cruisers on a deposit on a miserable VW Polo diesel in poverty spec. Then more than I pay for a year's servicing every few weeks for the next five years. Then chop it in for half the purchase price and start again.

 

I can't afford a new Polo, so I'll stick with my 15 year old Mercedes.

[wuvvum]

John, I don't know what it is, but I'm somehow getting a vibe that you don't like Americans very much?

[cort16]

[John F]

wuvvum, on 12 Feb 2015 - 2:03 PM, said:

John, I don't know what it is, but I'm somehow getting a vibe that you don't like Americans very much?

 

[Squire_Dawson]

ORL SHITE IZ SHIT

 

I struggled to understand the article. It's just some politically correct American drivel.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

whats politically correct about it then?

[Lacquer Peel]

[garethj]

Without dipping into the circular discussion, I think it's good to read something on the internet where running an old car doesn't mark you down as some kind of hopeless dropout that couldn't be trusted with the nice cutlery.

[Cheggers]

I bet Boll's glad he started this thread

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Well, I liked the article anyway and thought it was quite thought provoking. they do have some interesting stuff on TTAC, contrary to what I would normally expect of a Yankee car site

[AnthonyG]

I get depressed seeing all the prime yank chod in the found in the junkyard thread, that red Ford Fairmont for a start, wow a 2300 four cylinder Pinto, wcpgw?

[Partridge]

Well, I liked the article anyway and thought it was quite thought provoking. they do have some interesting stuff on TTAC, contrary to what I would normally expect of a Yankee car site

It provoked discussion if nothing else.

[forddeliveryboy]

Another thought on why I choose to run old cars - to me it'd be brainless to buy new when old, when maintained correctly by someone who knows, is as able to be relied on and often more capable on real roads. But the crunch for me is this, you can choose the very best stuff when it's older - not because it's not five figures but because it's had time to prove itself and can be chosen to suit your own particular needs.

[Partridge]

There's also no way I could afford the sort of cars I like new. By buying new I'd be restricted to hatchbacks, but running old stuff...The world is pretty much your oyster.

[carlo]

I often try to compare the costs between running my old 405 and a modern on finance but usually give up as I'm probably too thick to work out how the finance/depreciation/money left in bank situation affects it all.

 

I would agree with the view expressed on this thread a few times that only new or old shitter makes financial sense.  I would go as far as saying buying a new small car (Kia Picanto!), on a PCP with no tax, good economy and a very long warranty must be one of the cheapest and most reliable forms of motoring.  Not really for me, but exactly what a lot of the population need.

[carlo]

We're also very lucky now because most autoshite falls into the category of being built in the 1990s, which as we all know is the decade where reliability, rust resistance and electrical simplicity all combined to make cars pretty reliable and long-lasting.  In ten or twenty years all these cars will be classics or gone forever, and the only shite will be the stuff being made now - virtually impossible to keep going no doubt.

[quicksilver]

An interesting piece and I'm not quite sure what to make of it but I can see the basic premise. Maybe we forget that our views are skewed by the fact this is a car forum and we are all here because we have an interest in cars, but for many people a car is just a domestic appliance bought to do the job of getting them from A to B without inspiring any sort of enthusiasm. I can see why such people go for the easy option of buying something new with perceived reliability and a warranty/breakdown cover that lets them just travel without having to worry about it. I'm not sure 'privilege', in its British context anyway, is quite the right word, but certainly running old shite is a choice influenced by opportunity and circumstances and doesn't suit everyone. Maybe the author misses the point slightly as I feel the 'richness' is not so much financially rich as time and skill rich, having a lifestyle that allows the spare time to spend on maintenance and repairs, and a mindset to want to learn new skills and do it yourself. Some people just can't be bothered with all that, and/or have skills and interests in other areas that we don't.

[Pete-M]

We're also very lucky now because most autoshite falls into the category of being built in the 1990s, which as we all know is the decade where reliability, rust resistance and electrical simplicity all combined to make cars pretty reliable and long-lasting. In ten or twenty years all these cars will be classics or gone forever, and the only shite will be the stuff being made now - virtually impossible to keep going no doubt.

People were saying that in the 80s about 1970s stuff. "Points and condenser, they won't go wrong. That modern stuff all breaks" - they're all driving computer controlled turbo diesels now.

 

My Mercedes. 1999. Full of electronic stuff that old car folklore reckons should be broken because it is getting old. It all works perfectly, even down to the electric memory head rests. If I'd asked on a classic car site in '99 if the electronic ignition key thing would still be working fine in 15 years they'd say no.

 

In the late 80s people were junking fuel injection systems to fit carburettors. Often because they simply didn't understand injection.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

That's right. In twenty years time, cars made now will seem comically simple and all the modules will be fully fixable. There may even be a small cottage industry that  springs up to fix them for enthusiasts - because yes, they will still exist too.

 

My XJ40 is an early example of this. When they were new, received wisdom was that they would not survive to become old - that they were the end of an era. I remember being told by a mechanic with utmost conviction that it didn't matter whether Jaguar had solved their rust problems - the electrics and computers won't last ten years. He was wrong. It's thirty years next year since the XJ40's launch. The cars are now regarded as simple and easy to fix.

[John F]

Last generation's cars are always easier to repair than the latest generation, mainly because they've been round long enough for the common faults to be diagnosed and fixed, and for word to get out about how to do it. That being said, there is a worrying amount of electronics in modern cars so a new skill set & approach to diagnostics might be required in fixing future bangers,

[Pete-M]

Manufacturers have also improved how they do things. Peugeot 604, 1976, total closure of the windows and sunroof by holding the key in the lock position while they did their thing. Well ahead of the competition. However, Peugeot didn't fit relays to the window switches so the switches would often burn out the first time someone tried to open a window on a frosty day.

 

Jump forward to 1993 and a posh spec VW Golf also has total closure but this time you can open or close all the windows by keeping the appropriate button pressed on the keyfob. Window switches no longer need 20A to power the windows so switches are no longer a consumable. People do quite regularly return to a car with all the windows wide open after accidentally sitting on the keyfob when it is in range of the car.

 

Mercedes by 1996 were using dual transmitters for their locking systems to stop this. An infra red system for the total closure and a radio one for the actual locking. That way you have to point the key at the car to open or close all the windows remotely.

 

It's all evolution. Problems are found and shortly later someone will find a solution. Mechanics have to be on the ball but they always did. They're not doing decokes every 10k miles, they're replacing lambda sensors and dpf sensors every 80k

[alf892]

People were saying that in the 80s about 1970s stuff. "Points and condenser, they won't go wrong. That modern stuff all breaks" - they're all driving computer controlled turbo diesels now.

 

My Mercedes. 1999. Full of electronic stuff that old car folklore reckons should be broken because it is getting old. It all works perfectly, even down to the electric memory head rests. If I'd asked on a classic car site in '99 if the electronic ignition key thing would still be working fine in 15 years they'd say no.

 

In the late 80s people were junking fuel injection systems to fit carburettors. Often because they simply didn't understand injection.

Yup....that was me.

 

And Mrs Alf was doing the washing in the stream too.

 

I love my turbodiesel nearly as much as she loves her twin tub now............