GM in the shit

[AnthonyG]

And when the Chinese are building everything, where the fuck does a countries income come from - I would have thought someone from Ireland, with the biggest property & retail boom/bust story in the last 10 years would appreciate that. Not saying that the UK is any better in this score mind you.BTW, Reverend Blue Jeans a 320d has no more residual value after three years than a Mondeo TDCi (both around 35%) - and these cars are not exclusive any more - Have you seen a residental street in West London these days? - and with shit like the 1 series, they are not even nice cars anymore!Such a lot of bollocks written on this thread I will say no more.

[whitevanman]

What a totally facinating thread......................... right from my point of view with being almost as old as Methusala.we are ALL partly responsible..........why?GREED, life style, snobbery call it what you will, but we all want to have the finer things in life.a good aimHOWEVER. we may all work and spend our money as we see fit, but we almost all arn't spending money we have earned, we are spending what we will earn and there is the nub of the problem.Companies and individuals are spending what they dont own, and the bigger you are the more you spend, goverments, unions et al. if you dont buy a new car your killing the planet...here we will give you the thing for £200 a month then you can be green and envied at the same timeCar manufacturers are happy, goverments income increases, their happy, joe blogs feels good about being green and envied buy the neighbours, hes happy....................the world carries on colapsing in on itself..............ah the joy of the cycle of life

[r.welfare]

Some interesting things have been said.In terms of product, GM US is just beginning to turn the corner, but still makes too many poorly-conceived vehicles - the Buick range comes to mind at the moment. The hybrid Volt may or may not be the saviour (it certainly promises a lot on paper, but so did Tesla...), but it now looks as though it's release is also in the balance. Both Ford and GM have big employee costs (healthcare and pension) and inefficient manufacturing methods, but as has been pointed out Ford have a profitable European arm. I don't believe GM's European operations are anything like as healthy. In terms of "family silver", all GM really have to sell is SAAB which, frankly, they haven't done the best with since acquisition in 1988. And who would buy them - Sweden's labour laws are perhaps even more barking than the union-agreed deals that the US workers have. Hence why the new 9-5, 9-3 etc will no longer be built in Trollhattan, but Germany. Unlikely to find a buyer for Holden either.The new Insignia is bigger than the Mondeo on the outside but, amazingly, much smaller inside, due to function over form with the styling. Think Peugeot 407 - but it looks good! It will still sell well to the fleets with their 45% discounts.Private punters, on the other hand, will continue to buy Fords and GM products if they exist - in this country as much as the US - for the same reasons as my employer buys them for their fleet - big discounts, plenty of sales and service outlets, engineering and quality that is there-or-thereabouts (nothing too fancy), and ease of use, repair and resale. Nothing more, nothing less. For sure, other cars/manufacturers may do it better, but Ford and GM don't - to my mind - make bad cars any more. Does anyone? Just the economies of scale mean that the breakeven points for the big boys are enormous, and a financial wobble, crisis, meltdown, whatever, will hit consumer confidence to the point that their house of cards starts to shake.If the shit really hits the fan I am sure the US govt will bail Ford and GM out - Chrysler I am not so sure about it - but if the financial woes continue on long-term, it won't just be them who suffer. Question is, who will be next?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

  AnthonyG said:

BTW, Reverend Blue Jeans a 320d has no more residual value after three years than a Mondeo TDCi (both around 35%) Such a lot of bollocks written on this thread I will say no more.

If you can find me a low mileage E90 320d for £7700 (35% of the new cost), I'll have one please. From a dealer with a warranty, no more than 40'000 miles ta. I think you'll find they cost around £11-13'000 which equates to around 50%.As welfare says, Vox Hall don't make bad cars. A bit turgid maybe but perfectly serviceable. I only rent from Enterprise with whom I have a business account and they mainly do GM. A diesel Veccy with a/c and a CD player is a very nice car for a long haul. Just not with my money thanks.

[Guest greenvanman]

  Ross_K said:

Bring on the Chinese I say...

Really? Would you want to drive a Chinese-built car? If they're as well-made as the Chinese scooters I've seen then my answer would be "Thanks but no thanks".

[CortinaDave]

local dealer is punting 08 plate vectra SRI's just now for £6995.. hell of a depreciation on the 18 and a half grand list price they wanted for the same cars 6 months ago.They clearly cant shift the things

[Cavcraft]

There's a place in Yorkshire (I think) selling brand new Vectras for £7495 otr apparantly. The Insignia has been extremely well received by the motoring press and that plus the recession are not helping. It's not just Vauxhall struggling, one Honda dealership with three new car showrooms has gone bang and orders for probably every manafacturer out there are dropping.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

The only way for GM to get out of the shit in the UK is to ditch the Vauxhall name. Vauxhall just has so many downmarket scratter connotations. As for the Insipidia, it may well join the ranks of very good cars that didn't sell. It may be a great car, but it hasd a Vauxhall badge which means it will be worth less than a cup of cold piss after 18 months.GM don't make cars in the UK anymore so the Vauxhall name should be killed off. Cars like the Astra and above should be renamed Opel which is exactly what they are. Really push the 'made in Germany' bit, nice plate glass dealereships and do an Audi.Don't forget how utterly drab Audis were before the A4, sat like lemons next to some Golf in a VW dealership. It only takes one model to change the course of a car maker.

[retrogeezer]

  Quote

Don't forget how utterly drab Audis were before the A4, sat like lemons next to some Golf in a VW dealership. It only takes one model to change the course of a car maker.

Eh??? I loved my 94 80 estate and spoken to loads of people who say it was the best car they ever owned. Way better built than the A4 is now which is built down to a (still too expensive) price.

 

And the 70's Audi's are just gorgeous.

 

[r.welfare]

70s Audis are lovely-looking things - make mine a 100S Coupe please, as I can't afford an Aston V8 - but they had a rep for poor reliability and early rusting. For sure, the aero 100 marked the turnaround, but the A4 really put 'em on the map in this country. The B4 80 was a good car as well, but to my mind it's qualities (hardwearing bodies, mechanicals and interiors) were more appreciated on the secondhand market than when new, where the high price made the poor ventilation, std equipment and boot space less acceptable. Just my opinion of course - a '91 Forces import 2.0E served my brother very well.Reading the Jalopnik article in more detail, GM's cashflow crisis is shades of Chrysler Corp in 1978. I think history will repeat itself and they will get a Fed handout - but they need to stop the rot fast if they do. Just goes to show the difference between paper profits and actual cash. As they say in business - profit for vanity, cash for sanity...

[wuvvum]

  greenvanman said:

  Ross_K said:

Bring on the Chinese I say...

Really? Would you want to drive a Chinese-built car? If they're as well-made as the Chinese scooters I've seen then my answer would be "Thanks but no thanks".

Go on Youtube and watch some of the Chinese car crash test videos. They make a Rover Metro look like a Volvo 240.

[Father Ted]

So, what I really want to know is should I buy a Zafira now, or wait till things go tits up and the bottom drops out of the market?

 

Chinese car crash epic phaill - and the deformity got worse - makes you wonder why they bother with air bags really....

[Ratdat]

The world took the same attitude with Japanese cars in the 1960's and look where they are now. Same with Korean cars only the Koreans are getting their car industry up to speed even faster than the Japanese did. Hyundai have gone from the original Pony, thrown together from everyone elses cast-off parts to the Genesis in less then 30 years. The Chinese are learing very fast and I'd wager will have decent cars on the market within ten years. At present they don't have the in-depth technical know-how of their western counterparts but they will get it and they already have the manufacturing capability to produce cars on a collosal scale at a price that western companies won't be able to compete with.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

  Ratdat said:

The world took the same attitude with Japanese cars in the 1960's and look where they are now. Same with Korean cars only the Koreans are getting their car industry up to speed even faster than the Japanese did. Hyundai have gone from the original Pony, thrown together from everyone elses cast-off parts to the Genesis in less then 30 years. The Chinese are learing very fast and I'd wager will have decent cars on the market within ten years. At present they don't have the in-depth technical know-how of their western counterparts but they will get it and they already have the manufacturing capability to produce cars on a collosal scale at a price that western companies won't be able to compete with.

That's why companies like BMW, Porsche, Audi etc will keep going. There is always a market for that sort of car, a luxury item and not a consumer good. Peugeot and Renault are doing well because they are 'trendy' right now despite being quite nasty. Poor GM and Ford are caught between the prestige brands (German stuff) and the Koreans.Ultimately Vox Hall will probably go the same way as Austin and Morris, a bread and butter marque that is increasingly out of place.

[fiatdaft]

some tosh being spoken here me thinks,i sell new vauxhalls and we have just had a record month, 140 cars and 6 salesmen.credit crunch? what credit crunch?

[Cavcraft]

  The Reverend Bluejeans said:

The only way for GM to get out of the shit in the UK is to ditch the Vauxhall name. Vauxhall just has so many downmarket scratter connotations. As for the Insipidia, it may well join the ranks of very good cars that didn't sell. It may be a great car, but it hasd a Vauxhall badge which means it will be worth less than a cup of cold piss after 18 months.GM don't make cars in the UK anymore so the Vauxhall name should be killed off. Cars like the Astra and above should be renamed Opel which is exactly what they are. Really push the 'made in Germany' bit, nice plate glass dealereships and do an Audi.

Do what? I get sick of saying it but a) not everyone thinks Vauxhalls have a bad name (and being honest 99.9% of the ones that do are just idiots/badge snobs/sheep) and check the top ten car sales charts for the last fuck knows how many years and you'll see Vauxhall there time after time. As regards GM not making cars in in the UK anymore and the laughable suggestion the Astra be called an Opel you have actuallyu just shown your ignorance on the whole matter for my money. The Astra is made in Ellesmere Port which last time I checked was part of the United Kingdom, and it's made by Vauxhall who are part of the GM family.You're ignorant remarks (and that is what they are) tell me you're a badge snob who wouldn't buy a Vauxhall because of the name thing. I'd no sooner buy a car just because it was advertised as being made in Germany than I would stick my cock in a food blender.The constant Vauxhall/GM bashing by a small minority on here is fucking annoying and your post is classic example of this. I don't ask or expect you to like Vauxhalls if you don't want to but for fuck's sake at least get your facts right and ease up on cheap shots at Vauxhalls, especially when you don't even know what you're talking about .

[Rocket88]

Carlton/Senator Mk2 two of the most under rated and capable cars to have been built in the last 20+ years. Both knock spots off ANYTHING of comparable price when new, and still extremely capable now.Shame about the rear wheel arch rust, but the rest of the car were bloody good, hence almost all of the stuff around now has done stratospheric mileage.Better built, and far superior to drive than Sierra / Granada/ any Rover. Shame Vauxhall lost the plot with the Vectra, but they're not as bad as people say.

[CortinaDave]

Vectra or not... 7 grand or thereabouts for a nice spec family saloon thats a brand spanker is cheap.If i was a fleet manager then id be looking at that as a damn good deal.Plus since they're so cheap now brand new, that means they'll be 500 quid shitters even sooner than usual. Fabulous!

[M'coli]

Re Vauxhalls: I wouldn't buy any of their current range, not even as second hand, because I believe that the route the designers have taken is wrong. They're all huge, even the Corsa's too big, and I wouldn't like to try to get anything of great size (like a chest of drawers that would fit into the back of a Metro, for example) into the Astra because the tailgate's tiny.However, at least the new Tigra is better looking than the old one.Please also remember that my current daily driver is a Vauxhall before flaming me.

[retrogeezer]

I thought the designers got the Astra spot-on, still looks good and it's been out for 3/4 years. A massive improvement on the mk4 model. Hatch looks small on the 3 door (sorry, coupe!) but the 5 door looks fine.The facelift Vectra looks great too....and a new one for £7,500 could even tempt me into buying a new car!! Agreed, they look big, but so do all new cars - just look at the Mondeo.

[Father Ted]

  fiatdaft said:

some tosh being spoken here me thinks,I sell new vauxhalls and we have just had a record month, 140 cars and 6 salesmen.

So how do I tell if a Zaf is built in Bochum, Germany rather than Gliwice, Poland ???And more to the point where can I get a cheap 1900 dizzle one?

[Cavcraft]

  M'coli said:

Re Vauxhalls: I wouldn't buy any of their current range, not even as second hand, because I believe that the route the designers have taken is wrong. They're all huge, even the Corsa's too big, and I wouldn't like to try to get anything of great size (like a chest of drawers that would fit into the back of a Metro, for example) into the Astra because the tailgate's tiny.However, at least the new Tigra is better looking than the old one.Please also remember that my current daily driver is a Vauxhall before flaming me.

From a personal point of view I wouldn't flame anyone who put a reasoned argument across.Saying the latest Vauxhall will be rubbish and only worth 50p after two weeks or whatever is just lazy, stupid and biased so deserves flaming.I'm getting closer and closer to buying a Mk5 Astra but whilst my Mk4 continues to be so reliable, great to own and good to drive there's no point in getting rid of it.Father Ted: probably local used car specialists as (like other makes/models) there'll be loads going through the bigger car auctions and therefore car dealers. Auto Trader will be your your friend I reckon, though Vauxhall (locally at least) were offering good discounts on brand new ones.

[Guest Kyle]

I was very close to buying a brand new Vectra SRI TD a few months back, I hate moderns with a passion but it was just so good for the price, it swayed me. Didn't do it in the end as things changed and I now need a seven seater.I must also add to this I have owned many Vauxhalls over the past 25 odd years and NEVER had a bad one. Not bad going I think.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

  Cavette said:

  The Reverend Bluejeans said:

The only way for GM to get out of the shit in the UK is to ditch the Vauxhall name. Vauxhall just has so many downmarket scratter connotations. As for the Insipidia, it may well join the ranks of very good cars that didn't sell. It may be a great car, but it hasd a Vauxhall badge which means it will be worth less than a cup of cold piss after 18 months.GM don't make cars in the UK anymore so the Vauxhall name should be killed off. Cars like the Astra and above should be renamed Opel which is exactly what they are. Really push the 'made in Germany' bit, nice plate glass dealereships and do an Audi.

Do what? I get sick of saying it but a) not everyone thinks Vauxhalls have a bad name (and being honest 99.9% of the ones that do are just idiots/badge snobs/sheep) and check the top ten car sales charts for the last fuck knows how many years and you'll see Vauxhall there time after time. As regards GM not making cars in in the UK anymore and the laughable suggestion the Astra be called an Opel you have actuallyu just shown your ignorance on the whole matter for my money. The Astra is made in Ellesmere Port which last time I checked was part of the United Kingdom, and it's made by Vauxhall who are part of the GM family.You're ignorant remarks (and that is what they are) tell me you're a badge snob who wouldn't buy a Vauxhall because of the name thing. I'd no sooner buy a car just because it was advertised as being made in Germany than I would stick my cock in a food blender.The constant Vauxhall/GM bashing by a small minority on here is fucking annoying and your post is classic example of this. I don't ask or expect you to like Vauxhalls if you don't want to but for fuck's sake at least get your facts right and ease up on cheap shots at Vauxhalls, especially when you don't even know what you're talking about .

Oh dear oh dear!Mate - Pot Noodles are one of the biggest selling foodstuffs, yet they are still awful shite very few would want to eat. Just because a car sells in massive numbers to company car and hire car fleets doesn't automatically mean it is of any interest or merit.When did I say Vauxhalls were rubbish? They're not. They're okay if you like that sort of thing. I will say again; I don't moan about a Vectra hire car. They are decent enough, end of.The Astra is an Opel. It was designed in Germany and is also built in Germany. Just like Cavaliers were built in both countries. It just happens that the RHD version is built by Scousers, not that that is anything to crow about.The last proper Vauxhall was the Chevette, and even that was a rehashed Kadett. You have to go back to the FD/FE Victors and the HC Viva/Firenza/Magnum to find a real Vauxhall and not a rebadged Opel.Face it - your car is a rebadged German Opel whether you like it or not. Doesn't matter two shits which factory made it. You may prefer to drive a car whose interior resembles a Kwik Fit waiting room, I like my throbbing V8, leather, OBC, armrests and aircon for £150.

[Albert Ross]

I work for a Vauxhall dealer. They are WANK! New shape Astras? Incorrect fuel gauge readings, Broken camshafts, Steering track rod balljoint failures. 1.9 Diesel Particulate filter failures. Dual mass flywheel failures. Gearbox failures. Rear tyre odd wear patterns. Leaking steering racks. Electrical and electronic failures all round. Current (soon to be demised) Vectras. Current recall on handbrake spring. Steering rack fluid leaks. Track rod ball joint failures, rear upper suspension arm bush failures. broken springs all round. 1.9 diesel failures. EGR/Fuel delivery/inlet manifold hardware/ECU cock ups, etc....Corsas. Old model, steering rack noises and freeplay. handbrake cable corrosion and fraying. Uneven rear tyre wear. Timing chain failure. Broken camshafts. Oil pressure switches leak. 1.3 Diesel EGR/fuelling/ECU problems. Current ABS modulator recall ongoing problems. Merivas? Reasonably good. A few clunky racks, but otherwise reliable. Tigras? OK ish. Diesel EGR problems/overfuelling/ECU faults but resonably alrightish. Old Zafiras/ Leaky racks, sticky rear brakes, but the same as Astra G (98-04) Current Zafira? OK ish, but last week I replaced an engine on a 9000 mile motor due to a completely exploded piston..............hole in block etc. Shit! Current Corsa? Bottom arm incorrect weld pattern, incorrect steering geometry form new, poor alignment all round, EPS column failure, 1.3 diesel running faults/EGR/ECU overfuelling problems.Don't get me started on the vans for fuck's sake!Anyone care to disagree with these bits of info?I bought a Ford. I prefer to get where I am going.Money no object? Mercedes S class, W126 1991 (Wish I never sold my old one)Money is an object, so Ford it is.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Actually I was about to add that IMO, the best van going right now is the Vivaro - but that's a Luton built Renault Trafic. They drive so much better than the Tranny and the new (shite) Vito but I hear they like a gearbox or two.Sadly, the 100% reliable car has yet to be built and as cars get more complex, that's an even more remote possibility. The best cars were built in the early to mid nineties. Rust was pretty much sorted out and engines were fairly simple but they drove well enough to still be okay in 2008 and were fixable. When I first started using Enterprise, the first ever hire car from them was a red J plate Cavalier SRi complete with plastic wheeltrims - maybe not the best car ever made but a shitload better than the Sierra and I couyld put up some impressive journey times in it. The Mondeo raised the bar again though - they really were an excellent car, the first really, really good car Ford ever made.

[Father Ted]

Albert - dont suppose you could enlighten me how I can tell if a current Opel/ Vauxhall / Subaru / Cheverolet Zafira is nailed together in Germany or Poland could you. Yes Im a sad git after one, on the grounds taht it does what I want it to do for a reasonable price, but Im keen to buy a German nailed together one rather than Polski one.

[pogweasel]

Interesting!Whilst we are now really getting miles from the original matter, as the quality and desirability of griffin-badged GM products has naff-all bearing on their current predicament, based on recent experience I am inclined to agree. I used to swear by them, we had 4 Astras back-to-back, ('89, '90, '93 & '98 respectively, though the last was the least well screwed-together), but from about 98/99 onwards they just lost the plot. Horrible to look at compounded by nasty to drive further compounded by terrible quality. If you could get at least one of those ingredients right it would be a start. Every single one I have sampled has been insipid to drive (with that frugging EPS being bordering on the dangerous), uninspiring at best or at worst downright offensive to look at.... need I go on? I think they just got a bit complacent at some point.... look at the CHOD ford were knocking out in the 90's.... Escort - hopeless.... Fiesta - Outdated.... Scorpio - FFS what were they on.... Yt they still sold. So Vaux obv copied that 'minimum acceptable standard' business model, only to be royally pissed on when the Focus and Mk2 Mondeo came along.. by which time they were on a 10 year catch-up cycle. Serioulsy, some of the kit that Ford knock out now is like Mercedes and Volvo used to be in terms of quality. Anyway, I digress.The world's fucked, I'm fucked, so fuck 'em all.

[Cavcraft]

  The Reverend Bluejeans said:

  Cavette said:

  The Reverend Bluejeans said:

The only way for GM to get out of the shit in the UK is to ditch the Vauxhall name. Vauxhall just has so many downmarket scratter connotations. As for the Insipidia, it may well join the ranks of very good cars that didn't sell. It may be a great car, but it hasd a Vauxhall badge which means it will be worth less than a cup of cold piss after 18 months.

 

GM don't make cars in the UK anymore so the Vauxhall name should be killed off. Cars like the Astra and above should be renamed Opel which is exactly what they are. Really push the 'made in Germany' bit, nice plate glass dealereships and do an Audi.

 

Do what? I get sick of saying it but a) not everyone thinks Vauxhalls have a bad name (and being honest 99.9% of the ones that do are just idiots/badge snobs/sheep) and check the top ten car sales charts for the last fuck knows how many years and you'll see Vauxhall there time after time.

As regards GM not making cars in in the UK anymore and the laughable suggestion the Astra be called an Opel you have actuallyu just shown your ignorance on the whole matter for my money. The Astra is made in Ellesmere Port which last time I checked was part of the United Kingdom, and it's made by Vauxhall who are part of the GM family.

You're ignorant remarks (and that is what they are) tell me you're a badge snob who wouldn't buy a Vauxhall because of the name thing. I'd no sooner buy a car just because it was advertised as being made in Germany than I would stick my cock in a food blender.

The constant Vauxhall/GM bashing by a small minority on here is fucking annoying and your post is classic example of this. I don't ask or expect you to like Vauxhalls if you don't want to but for fuck's sake at least get your facts right and ease up on cheap shots at Vauxhalls, especially when you don't even know what you're talking about .

Oh dear oh dear!

 

Mate - Pot Noodles are one of the biggest selling foodstuffs, yet they are still awful shite very few would want to eat. Just because a car sells in massive numbers to company car and hire car fleets doesn't automatically mean it is of any interest or merit.

 

When did I say Vauxhalls were rubbish? They're not. They're okay if you like that sort of thing. I will say again; I don't moan about a Vectra hire car. They are decent enough, end of.

 

The Astra is an Opel. It was designed in Germany and is also built in Germany. Just like Cavaliers were built in both countries. It just happens that the RHD version is built by Scousers, not that that is anything to crow about.

 

The last proper Vauxhall was the Chevette, and even that was a rehashed Kadett. You have to go back to the FD/FE Victors and the HC Viva/Firenza/Magnum to find a real Vauxhall and not a rebadged Opel.

 

Face it - your car is a rebadged German Opel whether you like it or not. Doesn't matter two shits which factory made it. You may prefer to drive a car whose interior resembles a Kwik Fit waiting room, I like my throbbing V8, leather, OBC, armrests and aircon for £150.

£150? Must have devalued quite a bit then, is it a Vauxhall?

 

 

Oh, here's a clue for you about those German built Astras...

 

 

 

...remarkably good English on the sign isn't it?

Ps, if you walked round the plant you'll see the LHD Opel versions they export to other parts of Europe. Like Germany.

[Ratdat]

Er..give it a rest children. I don't think the majority of us on here give a shit about juvenile "my chosen marque is better than yours" type arguments. Let's not let this forum degenerate to the same level as the majority of car forums. I'd recommend either contributing something useful to the topic or refraining from typing anything at all.