Buyer beware? advice please

[cms206]

Hallo chaps,

A mate of mine for many years has just sold his 2007 Focus CC 2.0 diesel. He plain didn't get on with it, and after two years he bought a D-reg 205 diesel and punted the Focus. He advertised it as a Cat C (which it was) with most of an MOT on it (done the tail end of last year). It sold on the 'bay for £2k which seems pretty cheap for one of those, but the fella came, paid and took it away.

He's just had this email today...

 

Hi Michael,

Got back ok and started fixing a few things Sunday. I know I bought 'as seen' and knew it was a cat c and needed a bit of work BUT: Did you know there are no airbags fitted / working? You are lucky you did not have an accident or you and your passenger may well have been killed! I noticed the airbag light did not come on when started at the end of your road but did not say anything as thought it might be something simple like a bulb or fuse. Anyway I took it to the garage for a quick check and they say the airbags have deployed and not been replaced. Also looks like the seat belt pre-tensioners are tripped so wouldn't work neither would the side or roof airbags and to hide this the airbag light has been disconnected!. Also the horn does not work and the lights stay on. It is lethal! not to say illegal and should not have been on the road! How did it pass the MOT? They say it would not pass the MOT like that. None of this was mentioned in the add or I would never have offered that amount! Looks like it needs a full airbag kit fitted at least. Ok so I am a mug and didn't check the airbags / horn etc as I saw it had an MOT but it wasn't even on the advisory! You might be happy to drive it like that but I am not and I certainly wouldn't sell it like that to anyone without saying something. So I am NOT happy - and it cost me nearly £200 to get it! I havn't yet decided what to do but thought I would ask if you would take it back or at least pay for an airbag set?. I am not saying you knew about the airbags etc but assuming you didn't know (which is strange as any MOT stn should have noticed and pointed it out) you should take it back to your seller or contact the trading standards. Seriously, how would you feel if I had a crash and were killed or injured because of it? Basically. I know it was a cat C but you said 'repaired' and even a cat c repaired should have workiing airbags or at least be advertised as needing such. Thanks

Obviously I've told my mate to dinghy the message but he's worried about any repercussions - I've told him he bought it MOT'd from the previous seller and he MOT'd it twice in the time he owned it at two different reputable garages at some considerable expense, but he's worried this fella's gonna shaft him. My mate's a big feardyshite and won't join up here so I'm posting on his behalf whilst poking him in the side to get him to sign up, but in all seriousness - does the buyer have a case?

Cheers for any input folks, it'd be much appreciated.

[Skizzer]

I can't see him having any come-back on your mate, since it's a private sale.  If it did pass an MOT in that state, presumably he could take it up with the testing station or VOSA? 

[meggersdog]

OMG I've been driving around for over six years in a Discovery with no airbags at all and I've not been killed or injured.

 

Seriously though, it was a private sale and as Skizzer has said he needs to take it up with VOSA not your mate.

[cms206]

I can't see him having any come-back on your mate, since it's a private sale.  If it did pass an MOT in that state, presumably he could take it up with the testing station or VOSA? 

 

That was my thinking as the test station and their contact details are on the certificate but he's panicking. I've forwarded him the link to here. Cheers for the input so far, chaps!

[Micrashed]

Im puzzled - because if an airbag has deployed, the steering wheel will look like its been sick, even if you rip it out you wouldnt get the wheel to look right afterwards.

 

[Sloth in a bowl]

I would suspect that the purchaser is a chancer who has removed said airbags from the vehicle and would tell him to sod off.*

 

It's probably not difficult to check the purchaser's previous bay history and find some odd feedback or none at all.**

 

 

*This may not be true and he may just be an unlucky punter, but how many people would buy a Cat C and get the airbag light fixed when it has 10 months MOT still to run.

** Again I might be wrong but unless he has a history of proper deals with >90% happy people, I would be a bit questioning and fake history is easy to build on cheap stuff.

[Jim Bell]

GTF.

 

Whats he gonna do?

 

Go to small claims?

How on earth would he even begin to prove any of his gripes?

 

No warranties written or implied.

[trigger]

Sold as seen. Simples.

[seacow]

He has no comeback on your mate at all. And as mentioned who is to say he isn't messing about with false claims.

 

I would reply that is was MOTd twice with no issue and you bought as seen. Unlucky. Why the fuck was he looking if there were airbags anyway?

[Guest Breadvan72]

Breadvan free legal services to shiters is now open for PMs.   I will draft you a suitable reply and PM it to you, if you like..

 

 

If anyone wants a short exposition of the law as to sale of goods in this context, I will post one here later, but do not blame me if you fall asleep and crash your shite while reading my stuff.  

[DSdriver]

This is just my opinion base on zero legal training: This is a tricky one because it is not OK to sell a vehicle if you know that it is unroadworthy and do not declare it as such. So the purchaser has to prove that you knew it was so. The fact that you have had it MOT tested twice would rather sit in your favour. If he is not a rich man then he would be taking a huge risk in taking you to court over this because he could have costs awarded against him.

Coming from an era when cars never had them, I do not consider the lack of airbags makes a car dangerous, but VOSA might beg to differ. Especially if the car was made to look like it still had them.

[Mr Lobster]

Agreed with all of above plus how would he know if there are airbags there or not - seems a bit odd to start taking the dash to bits just to check.  

 

In essence though - jog on.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

He has no comeback on your mate at all. And as mentioned who is to say he isn't messing about with false claims.

 

I would reply that is was MOTd twice with no issue and you bought as seen. Unlucky. Why the fuck was he looking if there were airbags anyway?

 

The light didn't come on at all. I hate to think how long he spent tracing wires before popping the cover off the wheel to find only fresh air. 

[chaseracer]

I would be very interested in BV72's view on this, as offered, because he is a real lawyer.

[Angrydicky]

I've bought cars with major mechanical faults, extensive structural rot, and bent MoT's hiding many issues. Not once have I dreamed of calling the seller and asking for my money back or a contribution towards repairs! Cheeky git, a private sale is Sold as Seen and he has no comeback. Airbags aren't a big issue anyway, I've never owned a car with one, and it's hardly dangerous not to have them, what a load of bullshit. Thankfully I've never sold a car at this end of the market which is likely to attract this type of cretin, although I always make out two copies of a receipt with 'Sold as Seen' on it and get the buyer to sign both, one of which I keep.

[DSdriver]

I've bought cars with major mechanical faults, extensive structural rot, and bent MoT's hiding many issues. Not once have I dreamed of calling the seller and asking for my money back or a contribution towards repairs! Cheeky git, a private sale is Sold as Seen and he has no comeback. Airbags aren't a big issue anyway, I've never owned a car with one, and it's hardly dangerous not to have them, what a load of bullshit. Thankfully I've never sold a car at this end of the market which is likely to attract this type of cretin, although I always make out two copies of a receipt with 'Sold as Seen' on it and get the buyer to sign both, one of which I keep.

Ah yeah but you see, I once bought a car that had a chassis full of pudding. I took the chap to court and won because it was bought for my wife to take our nipper to school and the seller knew that. He also knew that it was dodgy because although he was selling the car privately, he worked at the garage that did the abysmal crash repair which left the car 3/4" shorter on the nearside wheelbase.

Judge declared that it is unlawful to sell a knowingly dangerous car, even if it is a private sale.

[cms206]

Breadvan free legal services to shiters is now open for PMs. I will draft you a suitable reply and PM it to you, if you like..

 

 

If anyone wants a short exposition of the law as to sale of goods in this context, I will post one here later, but do not blame me if you fall asleep and crash your shite while reading my stuff.

Thanks fella, that'd be great if you could. My mate Michael has allegedly signed up so hopefully he'll have more to say here shortly.

[Guest Breadvan72]

To advise properly, I would need to see how the eBay advert was worded.  Also, were there any pre sale email or text conversations? 

 

Of course, this being the internet, I might just be pretending to be a lawyer, but, frankly, who would ever do that?  

[DSdriver]

Private Sale - no comeback.

 

Buyer inspected and test drove car before purchase - no comeback.

 

Buyer admits to noticing fault, making diagnosis (guess) and still purchasing car - no comeback.

 

Having said all that, I'd still like to hear what BV72 has to say as I have almost no legal training.

Re read my posts - there is comeback and it is all my fault. My court case set the legal precedent.

[purplebargeken]

I believe that selling something as sold as seen doesn't have any meaning (sorry if I am wrong). Father in law sold a red Mk2 Golf a good few years ago and it came to light that the car was a cut and shut. He was taken to court on the premise that he knew about it when he sold it and the buyer asked if it had been in an accident. I believe F in L said no that it hadn't (like he would know the history of the car). It rumbled on in the courts for a very long time but I can't recall the outcome unfortunately. F in L is a prat but he wouldn't do anything like that and my lad had been in the car many a time when he was a little 'un and t hat wouldn't have happened if we had known.

 

I guess caveat emptor applies but the main beef (if any) should be with the MOT places at best I would imagine.

 

What say you Mr. Breadvan? 

[simmo]

Isn't there a thing about selling a car that isn't road worthy and I thought that's why ads say spares or repair or for salvage only.?

[Guest Breadvan72]

Re read my posts - there is comeback and it is all my fault. My court case set the legal precedent.

 

 

No.it didn't.  County Court decisions set no precedent.    High Court decisions only bind lower Courts.    Cases turn on their own facts.  

 

Every sale of goods in England and Wales is governed by the Sale of Gods Act 1979.  This is so whether the sale is business to business, business to consumer, or non business seller to buyer.

 

The Act imposes some obligations on those who sell goods in the course of a business.

 

A non business seller is subject to fewer obligations than a business seller, and in particular a non business seller is not subject to an implied obligation as to the quality of the goods sold.

 

If the seller deliberately or carelessly misrepresents a fact about the goods, and the buyer reasonably relies on the misrepresentation and suffers detriment as a result, then the buyer may have a claim against the seller.  

 

In general, if a person buys a car from a non business seller after seeing and testing the car, and there have been no misrepresentations of fact, then the buyer takes the risk that the car may have defects.

 

I won't advise on the case mentioned in this thread until I know what was said about the car before the sale. 

[Cavcraft]

Really?

 

Tell him politely firmly you ain't entertaining any refund, however slight. He's a chancing fucker who just wants something off and he should have checked it himself. I'd personally suggest that he was right it was sold as it stood and if he has any questions about the legality of previous or current MOTs to take it up with VOSA. Your mate clearly didn't know about the problem and he drove it for a couple of years like that.

 

What does my head in the most with that knobwarbler's message is the shitty Facebook mentality 'OMG it's dangerous' shit. What did he do before airbags came out and has he never bought an old, second hand car before, never mind one on the hit list?

Tell your mate to say he's sorry this tit has found problems he wasn't aware of but there's no compo, there's no money back and he's not prepared to discuss it further. Once he lets this chancer in with some form of acceptance or refund, he's bollocksed. Firm but fair.

[Guest Breadvan72]

Under section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy vehicle save for export from GB and save where the seller reasonably believes that the vehicle won't be used on a GB road until it is made roadworthy.  

 

This does not affect the validity of a contract of sale.     

[DSdriver]

Now I'm off the hook tell him to foxtrot oscar. 

[Micrashed]

 

 

spunk-trumpet

 

[cms206]

I suspect it was one of these.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-FORD-FOCUS-CONVERTIBLE-BLACK-/251435742161?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3a8abcf3d1&nma=true&si=Jto%252FRwYUKYjzkbaQ9cyBwAJh%252FwA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-FORD-FOCUS-CONVERTIBLE-BLACK-/251448090785?ViewItem=&item=251448090785&nma=true&si=Jto%252FRwYUKYjzkbaQ9cyBwAJh%252FwA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It was the black 56-plate.

[Hertz]

Sold as seen, no warranty implied or given 

 

Your mate has nothing to worry about.

[londonm]

Just ignore the dyslexic twat.

[Split_Pin]

I always use the polite phrase 'You do whatever you feel you have to'.