Project Korean Cortina - going back in time!

[bunglebus]

11 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

Think I'll sleep on it

A quick Google suggest the pumps you have would rotate ACW as we look at your pictures, so clockwise as you look at them fitted to the engine 

[mat_the_cat]

12 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

I think what I've done is use a pump as fitted to a Discovery serpentine belt model, which drives the pump from the back of the belt - hence designed to be spun anticlockwise.

 

1 hour ago, bunglebus said:

A quick Google suggest the pumps you have would rotate ACW as we look at your pictures, so clockwise as you look at them fitted to the engine.

Yep, you're right - I'm a numpty. All I had to do was look at one of the two serpentine belt Rover V8s I have here, and the pump is clearly different. So that's a relief in a way that I haven't been completely stupid, but still doesn't explain my apparent reversed circulation.

[Talbot]

Are you sure you haven't just got rather more air cooling while driving forwards on the top hose thermocouple than you have on the bottom one, hence getting a false low reading on the top hose? Which would of course then not be an effect when the car is idling, and hence you get the top hose showing hotter.

Either that, or is the bottom hose thinner than the top hose, and hence you get better heat transfer through it?  Where are you attaching the thermocouples?

[mat_the_cat]

7 hours ago, Talbot said:

Are you sure you haven't just got rather more air cooling while driving forwards on the top hose thermocouple than you have on the bottom one, hence getting a false low reading on the top hose?

  It's possible - certainly there doesn't *look* like there'd be a visible difference but there may be something funky going on with the airflow which isn't obvious.

7 hours ago, Talbot said:

Either that, or is the bottom hose thinner than the top hose, and hence you get better heat transfer through it?  Where are you attaching the thermocouples?

I'm attaching it to the hose directly at the radiator ports. I was thinking of repeating the experiment with some lagging, as obviously the thermocouple is only measuring its own temperature. It looks like there is a significant cooling effect, as the overall temperatures are a lot lower than I'd expect, and certainly lower than the gauge/radiator fan switch would suggest. I may make up some very fine wire TCs, which I can thread into the coolant directly. That has to be the best option.

[Zelandeth]

Seems an obvious one...but you have checked both sides of the impeller casting of that pump are pointing the same direction haven't you?

With modern part quality control I'd not put it past some factory churning out pumps with 50/50 flipped impeller geometry...

[Talbot]

Have you got an IR thermometer gun?  It would be interesting to see what the TCs are reading, and then blat the area with an IR gun.  Whilst I wouldn't expect them to be identical, there shouldn't be more than a few degrees difference.  It would confirm (or not) if you are getting real coolant temperatures or not.

[mat_the_cat]

26 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Seems an obvious one...but you have checked both sides of the impeller casting of that pump are pointing the same direction haven't you?

With modern part quality control I'd not put it past some factory churning out pumps with 50/50 flipped impeller geometry...

The reverse side of the impeller has no vanes, if that's what you were wondering? It's been quick to rise with two different pumps now, so unfortunately I don't think I can blame a dodgy pump!

2 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Have you got an IR thermometer gun?

We must have inherited one, as I borrowed it previously. I've yet to find it though! It suggested coolant temperatures ~110°C though from memory, although the question was what emissivity value to enter for the surface I was pointing it at. The hose should approximate a black body source fairly well though, so close to 1  I'd have thought.

[mat_the_cat]

On 6/11/2021 at 12:00 PM, Talbot said:

Do you get air locks in it though, being a high-spot with no vent?

This has been on my mind since you mentioned it - could my problems be down to something as simple as an airlock? Even if not, it can't hurt to include a bleed screw at the high point, so I purchased a short length of joiner tube with a threaded boss in it.

But I still wanted to have the appearance of a factory fit, one-piece hose. So I notched the ends of the hoses to fit around the screw:

I also had to replace a hose, as it had been partly eaten by the alternator fan. There's clearance when the engine is running, but obviously things must shift around under load. A new hose was cut down to fit:

Using a hose clip to try and get as straight an edge as possible, seeing as I don't own a hose cutter.

I then shrunk all the hose 'clamps', and scuffed them up to remove the in your face writing.

The alternator fan I had previously trimmed down so it's just smaller than the body. This was hastily done before the trip to the FoD, using the slightly dodgy method of an angle grinder flap disc, and an idling engine lathe.

Apart from having a fun day meeting up with folk down there, the ~400 mile trip was an absolute joy. It's my first long trip in it for a while, and for once there was no traffic jams on the M6 at Birmingham! I particularly enjoyed the return journey, with fewer cars on the road, convoying with @AnthonyG (for a short while 😉). The fuel economy is so much better getting out of the Welsh hills - I normally average low 20s!

[mat_the_cat]

I am a real-life Gary King, and I don't know whether to be pleased or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dshmyllg2HE&t=75s

[mat_the_cat]

I'd planned to carry out more measuring before making any changes to the cooling system. But I just haven't got round to it yet, and with FOTU less than a week away I'm running out of time. It seems very unlikely to be a clogged rad, but the gradual deterioration does seem to be pointing that way.

So seeing as I had one, I thought I had better fit that, as I'm not confident there won't be a repeat of the queues of last year. Although ideally I'd only make one change at once, seeing as the water pump needs to come off to change the rad, I don't really fancy putting the old one back on.

Here's the difference in impellor design.

As well as more vanes, there is less clearance between them and the pump housing. Trade-off will be more power lost in pumping, but hopefully that's liveable with...

I've modified it by pushing the pulley hub on further (as the factory did with the MG RV8), so it's ready to go on once the radiator is in.

I've removed the old one, but just need to trim the new to fit it in the space available. There was a surprising amount of silty coolant drained, especially considering it's only been in for 3 years.

[Rocket88]

12 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

I'd planned to carry out more measuring before making any changes to the cooling system. But I just haven't got round to it yet, and with FOTU less than a week away I'm running out of time. It seems very unlikely to be a clogged rad, but the gradual deterioration does seem to be pointing that way.

So seeing as I had one, I thought I had better fit that, as I'm not confident there won't be a repeat of the queues of last year. Although ideally I'd only make one change at once, seeing as the water pump needs to come off to change the rad, I don't really fancy putting the old one back on.

Here's the difference in impellor design.

As well as more vanes, there is less clearance between them and the pump housing. Trade-off will be more power lost in pumping, but hopefully that's liveable with...

I've modified it by pushing the pulley hub on further (as the factory did with the MG RV8), so it's ready to go on once the radiator is in.

I've removed the old one, but just need to trim the new to fit it in the space available. There was a surprising amount of silty coolant drained, especially considering it's only been in for 3 years.

You ever considered using one of these?

[mat_the_cat]

Yes, I even owned one for a while in the early days of the project. But at the time, the rated lifespan put me off so I sold it. 

Running it at idle along with 3 cooling fans would be quite an electrical load though, over 40 amps! So that's another factor which is putting me off at the moment.

[Rocket88]

Think a few moderns run them now……

[horriblemercedes]

5 hours ago, Rocket88 said:

You ever considered using one of these?

It's proper bo I tell thee 

[Rocket88]

30 minutes ago, horriblemercedes said:

It's proper bo I tell thee 

[Rocket88]

Just now, Rocket88 said:

30 minutes ago, horriblemercedes said:

It's proper bo I tell thee 

Nope….. me neither…..

[mat_the_cat]

On 7/24/2022 at 5:48 PM, Rocket88 said:

Think a few moderns run them now……

It may well be a better option, but ive gone down this road for now so will see how it pans out.

All back together now and bled.

I ran it up to temperature from idle, and couldn't get the second stage cooling fans to kick in. It is a fairly cool ambient temperature at the moment, so can't say for sure whether this is an improvement or not.

The test drive never got the needle over half way, even dawdling - so this is a definite reduction in gauge temperature. Even slowing to 50mph on the motorway was enough to show an increase previously. Hopefully the trip down to FOTU at the weekend  will give further encouraging results :-)

[mat_the_cat]

As expected, there was a queue to get into FOTU. Took around an hour all in, and yes, the gauge does rise from the normal 12 o'clock position.

But doesn't seem to rise any further, and the second set of cooling fans were cycling in and out as they should (when AC was turned off), suggesting temperatures between 92 and 97°C. It did this before however, so I'm not totally convinced there's been an improvement, although it did give me enough confidence to leave it idling to prove that it wouldn't boil over. It smells less hot, as a completely subjective test!

It all reinforces the need to get proper measurements, but I'm less convinced there is actually anything wrong. It was fantastic to have a decent drive in it again too 😀 

[mat_the_cat]

It's stuck me that the gauge, with the sender placed close to the top hose outlet from the inlet manifold, is most closely measuring the temperature of the water going into the radiator. Hence it's not really a good reflection of any cooling system improvements. But the radiator fan switch is located close to the outlet, so even if the gauge creeps up, if the fans doesn't kick in that means the radiator must be doing its job. I'm thinking of rigging up a couple of LEDs to tell me when the two sets of contacts close and open. It'll be a crude indication of how well things are working, and easy to read on the move.

And in other news, is this the first film to feature a Stellar in a starring role?

https://butwhytho.net/2022/07/22/stellar-a-magical-ride-review/

 

[mat_the_cat]

Fuck. Hit the sump on our track tonight and in a hurry so didn't stop to check for damage. Done it before and no harm done, but it's developed a nasty top end rattle. Stopped and it was pouring out, but still oil pressure despite a death clatter!??

[stuboy]

6 minutes ago, mat_the_cat said:

Fuck. Hit the sump on our track tonight and in a hurry so didn't stop to check for damage. Done it before and no harm done, but it's developed a nasty top end rattle. Stopped and it was pouring out, but still oil pressure despite a death clatter!??

fingers crossed it was just oil loss making the top end rattle..

[RayMK]

3 minutes ago, mat_the_cat said:

Fuck. Hit the sump on our track tonight and in a hurry so didn't stop to check for damage. Done it before and no harm done, but it's developed a nasty top end rattle. Stopped and it was pouring out, but still oil pressure despite a death clatter!??

Trying to think of an optimistic comment.  How about ' With so much oil missing from the sump, it will act as a sound box.'

I remember watching adverts for an oil additive in the USA in the 1990s, during which a car which had been running with the additive for a while (unspecified) had all of its sump oil drained and the sump plug left out. Said car was then driven at around 50mph between two major cities, a distance of several hundred miles. The engine was then stripped and no significant wear or other damage could be found.   There was no mention of how rigorously this stunt was performed or witnessed, so some lingering doubts remained.  I think your engine will be ok with new oil and a repaired sump (if the sump was dented, the crank may have been clouting it. That makes a din!)

[Crackers]

If oil pressure survived you should be OK, V8s are pretty hard to kill. I expect the hydraulic lifters drained out, causing the rattle. With a new sump and fresh fill of oil, the lifters should pump up again after a while and it'll go quiet again.

[jonathan_dyane]

I would be surprised if you've killed it

[PhilA]

I blew all the coolant out of my RV8 doing 60 on the M5 on a hot day, and only noticed when there was a haze of oil smoke behind me- pulled over and the engine seized up. The oil was boiling and it was a hot day.

Let it cool down, it started up running on 5 with a horrendous racket from the tappets.

20 miles down the motorway it was running just fine. 

They're a boat anchor. But they're also quite hard to kill. You probably drew air in and burped the tappets down. Fix the hole, fill it back up again and continue to enjoy.

[Conan]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:44 AM, mat_the_cat said:

And in other news, is this the first film to feature a Stellar in a starring role?

https://butwhytho.net/2022/07/22/stellar-a-magical-ride-review/

 

I'll distract you from the recent calamity.

As it happens, no, that was not the first film to feature a Stellar as the main starring role. This was.

I doubt it'll be the last as well. Late 80's nostalgia is going on pretty hard in South Korea.

[warch]

The old ‘Rover’ V8 is quite an antiquated design and ought to last quite a long time even with no oil in it at all, they aren’t over stressed or high revving so they don’t generate the heat required to seize the engine or damage the internal components quickly. The internal tolerances will also be quite large compared to any modern engine. 
 

I’ve run my Land Rover aircooled* on at least two occasions (both of which got the engine so hot you could hear the oil bubbling) without any lasting damage.

[Bear]

Fingers crossed for you!

[mat_the_cat]

I hope you're right! Thing is, I can't quite understand how the tappets could be starved of oil, yet the bearings not be.

It looks to have cracked the boss around the drain plug, so in theory an easy repair however there's no way to remove the sump in situ. It's either engine out, or more likely support the engine and drop the front crossmember. Honestly, who'd design it like that?!

[PhilA]

1 hour ago, mat_the_cat said:

I hope you're right! Thing is, I can't quite understand how the tappets could be starved of oil, yet the bearings not be.

It looks to have cracked the boss around the drain plug, so in theory an easy repair however there's no way to remove the sump in situ. It's either engine out, or more likely support the engine and drop the front crossmember. Honestly, who'd design it like that?!

The tappets need about 5-10psi minimum to stop being noisy.

If you drove for a distance then they'll start to pump down and the engine will begin to run like a sack of spanners, accentuating the rattles and bangs.

Pressure gauge is only at the pump, don't forget.  Once you fall below their pump down pressure the tappets will be noisy, particularly if you've revved the engine up a bit.