Renault 6TL "Crapaud"

[vulgalour]

Hope so.  I've brought the distributor home so I can work out what parts I need.  Typically French, there's several different kinds of rotor arms and points and whatnot that are listed for my car but aren't the same.  Usefully, I have tracked down points, condenser, rotor arm and distributor cap for less than £15 delivered.  What I've not been able to find yet is a set of spark leads which is a bit strange, I expected those to be really easy to get hold of.  I suspect I've not searched for exactly the right name to find them, I don't particularly fancy paying £20+postage to get a set from Australia or Latvia, I'd far rather just buy locally if I can.

[Eddie Honda]

Usefully, I have tracked down points, condenser, rotor arm and distributor cap for less than £15 delivered.  What I've not been able to find yet is a set of spark leads which is a bit strange

Having done a bit of digging on these Cleon engines in the past, the aftermarket parts catalogues are particularly pants at being accurate at finding things. On Ducellier distributors, the points and condensers are easy enough parts to find, but the last Valeo (Ducellier being a brand of theirs these days) condenser I had last all of 20 seconds. I'm going to gut the casing out and put a working capacitor inside the tube.

 

The main thing to watch for is rotors and caps. There are things that appear to be the same and sometimes aren't just to piss you off when you come to fit them. The other thing is HT leads. It seems hard work to get them individually these days down the motor factors, where you could just pick individual lengths off the rack and make your own custom set of the correct lengths. A lot of supposedly Cleon sets have some ridiculously long leads in them.

 

So long, it ends up being a rats-nest. (1289cc Renault Cleon engine in a DAF 66 1300, the 1108cc is pretty much the same)

 

IMG_20150422_144803_721 by E Homda, on Flickr

 

Looking back at you engine bay, I see the coil is on the inner wing. How long is the lead meant to be between that coil and the dizzy? If you can relay that piece of info, I can compare it to my notes and give you the part number of the set you need.

 

 

From the look of that picture, would those red HT leads be made by Bougicord by any chance?

[vulgalour]

Do you know, they are.  I didn't think there was anything on them but Bougicord 400 RTF 33 is embossed on them and you can just about read it.  How on earth did you guess that?

[vulgalour]

The measurement of the HT lead is 13.5 inches (for the visible bit, not including plugs), now that I've found my tape measure.

[Eddie Honda]

It was the colour....and having taken a set of original Bougicord leads off a Citroen GS and a Volvo 343, they were OEM for both.

 

I put a new set of Bougicord leads on the GS and they were blue and the set I have here on the desk for a R4 are black. Can't find a tape measure just now, but will measure the set in the morning and get back to you. (The Bougicord catalogue doesn't list HT leads for a R6, btw)

[vulgalour]

It's likely the R4 leads will fit.  Under the bonnet the inner wings and engine are the same as R4 it's only some small differences with the radiator that separate them so far as I can tell.

[Largactil]

Have you tried Mister Auto for leads?

 

They don't list the R6, but if the R4 is the same mechanically, these might be the ticket?

 

http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/ignition-leads/renault-4-112-1-1-45hp_v27723_g685.html

[vulgalour]

That does look like the right sort and the measurements are about what I need.  Good find  Not a bad price before postage.  It's one of those sites where you have to give them your life story just to place an order and find out what the postage should be and I cba with that right now.

[Largactil]

£16.77 posted if you buy them from their eBay site: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ignition-Cable-Kit-BOUGICORD-313-RENAULT-4-/191696378137

[vulgalour]

You are the gift that keeps on giving

[Eddie Honda]

Before you steam in there. They use YODEL.

[Eddie Honda]

I have a set of these in front of me. Yes, the were obtained from Mister Auto.

 

Two warnings, the first of which you already had. They'll post them Bpost (Belgian Post), but when they hit the UK, you'll be at the mercy of YODEL.

 

The second is that they got my first order wrong, despite buying other ignition items such as dizzy cap, rotor arm, etc. The packer just looked at the part reference and not the description, they sent me NGK 3413, which was one sodding diesel glow plug. Had no bother returning it, but it added another fortnight onto the wait.

 

Right have them in front of me with tape measure...

 

Some R4s, like the old DAFs and very eary Volvo 300s, had the coil bolted low down at 45 degrees on the side of the block the same side as the distributor, this means the coil to dizzy lead required is fairly short. The R6 from those pictures has the coil on the inner wing instead, but it's quite close. The other thing to consider is the lead in the R4 has a straight plug either end, and not a right-angled one at the coil, so it might need to be a tad longer that a right-angled version.

 

Bougicord 3413_001 by E Honda, on Flickr

 

This first measurement is the lead from edge of shroud to edge of shroud. Just over 11"

 

Bougicord 3413_002 by E Honda, on Flickr

 

This second measurement is the lead from tip of conductor to tip of conductor. c. 15"

 

Bougicord 3413_003 by E Honda, on Flickr

 

Not all manufacturer's R4 sets are created equal.

 

The Bougicord set is listed as 325mm (actually end to end 350mm) for all four plug leads and the coil lead is 370mm (actual end to end 375mm)

 

The Intermotor set for the R4 (73676) is listed as per here: http://smpe.elcome.co.uk/ecat/ViewPart.asp?p=73676&i=7780&pt=4&cid=76064232, but having had a set in my hands measured.

 

2 x plug leads (end to end) 350mm

2 x plug leads (end to end) 400mm

coil lead (end to end) 570mm (one end straight and other is right-angled.

 

Intermotor 73676 / DSCF7876 by E Honda, on Flickr

 

Intermotor 73676 / DSCF7877 by E Honda, on Flickr

 

Intermotor 73676 / DSCF7881 by E Honda, on Flickr

 

Don't believe everything you read in the parts catalogues, they are full of errors. (As expected, Intermotor don't have an HT lead set listed for the R6 either!)

[vulgalour]

yay, nightmarish parts hunting!  Top info though and will help when I place my eventual order from someone.  Which is going to have to wait a little bit.

 

Today, I volunteered Mike to rebuild my engine.  This is because I've been next to useless all day thanks to my stupid spine which hates me.  Still, better than sitting at home watching daytime tellybox.  To kick things off, the various mating surfaces on the block were cleaned of any overpaint on the edges and parts were got together so we could start reinstalling them and making the engine look like an engine again.  This all went very smoothly thanks to Mike's ultra-methodical approach to everything and the fact I'd put everything away in specific order so we didn't have to guess at where things went.

 

There was a bit of an issue when we found one of the crankshaft end seals in the kit was the wrong size.  Everything else in the kit looks the same as what came off the car.  I did wonder if the old one had shrunk and the new one just needed compressing but the new one doesn't appear to physically fit where it's supposed to go.  I'll be getting in touch with Der Franzose about that one.

 

Not to worry, we don't need that bit as we're not ready to put the flywheel on yet.  The liners were cleaned up and found to be free of steps and scores, the pistons inspected and found to have a good set of rings on all and to likewise be free of damage.  Paper liners (literally paper rings that go at the bottom of the liners) of the relevant thickness for the wet liners were fitted and the task of installing the pistons began.  This went very smoothly for two which were installed in the block very quickly.  Unfortunately, on the other two the ring compressor slipped which let to snapping the end off one of the compression rings and deforming the end of one of the oil scraper rings.  That was quite annoying.  Luckily, you can get single sets of rings from Der Franzose for about £15 plus postage.  I've been unable to find an alternative supplier for these at the time of writing.  Even so, we got far enough that the oil pick up could be fitted and the pile of parts to reinstate has shrunk considerably.

 

To avoid and catastrophies, the engine was put right way up and covered until we have the piston rings needed to finish the installation.  There's still other engine jobs that can be done without the piston rings being available so we can still progress with things in the meantime.

[vulgalour]

It's French so of course there's about four variants of every component and of course I'll have the one that's impossible to get things for easily.  Only found the piston rings on Der Franzose and it's going to cost me £25 (because postage) to replace the two broken ones which seems very expensive.  Why couldn't it be an earlier 845cc car?  Those are easy peasy to get bits for!

[Parky]

Don't forget not to turn the engine with the head off, the liners can move and ruin the paper seals. But you probably already know that....

[Parky]

It's French so of course there's about four variants of every component and of course I'll have the one that's impossible to get things for easily.  Only found the piston rings on Der Franzose and it's going to cost me £25 (because postage) to replace the two broken ones which seems very expensive.  Why couldn't it be an earlier 845cc car?  Those are easy peasy to get bits for!

The engine came in many sizes, are you sure you don't have the same sized Pistons as the 1289cc or1108cc engines? May well be that parts places computers don't realise the interchangeability or something.

 

Otherwise surely an old school engine builder might have something usable? Gosnays in Romford are worth a call and if they can help I will collect for you and send them via proper post

[vulgalour]

I don't know what is and isn't different between the 1289 and the 1108 though I suspect it's how far the liners are bored out mainly which would mean the 1289 stuff wouldn't be suitable.  I'm annoyed the rings got damaged at all, there was nothing wrong with them until we tried putting everything back together.  I'll probably just go with Der Franzose for the convenience of it so I don't have to spend a couple of days ringing round old companies to be asked 'A what?' repeatedly.

[Noel Tidybeard]

this may be helpful/of interest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Cl%C3%A9on-Fonte_engine

[vulgalour]

Mike's been driving around local engineering and engine building type places today with piston in hand (snerk) to see if anyone has a set of rings in stock.  None of them have.  None of them can get them either.  This is entirely what I've come to expect these days so it looks like an e-mail to Der Franzose with the old vs new gasket and seal measurements and a new order for parts.  Slows the rebuild down somewhat but the engine rebuild hasn't exactly been a fast job so far.

[vulgalour]

Since the last update, all has been on hold.  It's been an eventful month, mainly derailed by The Accident.

Another spanner was thrown in the works when it turned out the single ring set I was going to buy was the wrong size for my engine.  Instead, I've had to order the complete set at £60ish which had to wait until tonight as funds have been pretty tight while I've been focusing on getting through February.  Happily, another enthusiast (mr_reno-139 over on http://www.renault4.co.uk/) furnished me with the correct end seal so I have everything coming together to sort the engine out.  Since I'll be fitting a full set of new rings I've decided to pay a little bit more and have a local company fit them and hone the liners so it all matches nicely and takes away the fear of breaking another ring and having to order another set.

Once that's all together, hopefully later this month, I can look at getting a new battery and seeing if the radiator is fixable.  I reckon even though it's got the unique-to-6 radiator one from a 5 or even a 4 will do just as well if I need to replace it.  Replacement 6-specific parts seem ludicrously difficult to get over here and I'm really struggling with leboncoin.

Progress on this project is frustratingly slow and very stop-start after the initial fun exploration of the little car.  I shan't give up, I'll keep plodding away.

[dollywobbler]

Slow progress is still progress! Great to see.

[vulgalour]

Wow, it was just over a year ago that I pulled the engine out of this car for a 'quick rebuild'.  Been a stinker of a year!  Today, I got caught up and made some progress with some help and guidance from my brother who has done considerably more engine rebuilds than me of all sorts of different types.

 

I finally got the expensive piston ring set from Der Franzose which came with instructions as to which went where if I wasn't sure.  Some of the old rings did put up quite a fight, others didn't, and while the pistons show their age they're far from knackered so were decoked and kitted out with new rings.

 

 

 

This time, no piston rings were snapped on reassembly.  Mike invested in a glaze busting tool for the unit and we tried it out on the Renault's scruffy liners.  Worked a treat and they all cleaned up very nicely. Pistons went back in nice and snug and with a few tricks from my brother on how better to use the ring compressor and such we had all four back in the engine in no time.  Here's some pictures of just three in situ.  I was relying on my camera phone so components look dull when in real life they're actually shiny.

 

 

We made sure the correct paper liner gaskets were fitted, that the pistons all pointed the same way (there's marks on the crowns) and that the liners were correctly paired.  There does seem to already be signs of good compression, as there was some necessity to rotate the engine while getting everything in and my brother's gloves were being successfully vacuumed into the bores, that bodes well.

 

With that done it was really a case of reassembly.  I didn't get everything done, I'm still a bit unwell and I wasn't in a rush, I'd rather the job be done well than quickly.  Got the cam buckets and pushrods refitted, head gasket fitted, head bolts torqued in correct sequence (they'll be retorqued accordingly once the engine has been running) and even got the rocker cover gasket fitted.

 

 

On a bit of a roll the crankshaft went in, the exhaust manifold and carburettor were also fitted.  I was going to sort the timing and get the chain on but the tensioner has burst into its component parts and doesn't seem to want to stay together.  Nothing appears to be broken or missing, it just doesn't seem to want to stay in one piece.

 

It's looking like a smart little engine now.  Looking forward to firing it up when we've finished rebuilding all the various bits and pieces, I'd like to hope it's not going to take another year before it's back in the car but you really never know with the way my life goes.

 

[Lacquer Peel]

Great stuff vulgalour, that looks like a really satisfying job.

[vulgalour]

It is! Particularly satisfying that things actually rotate fully now where they didn't before.

[PhilA]

Nice. You're doing well, I had to get a set of rings specially made for mine.

 

Progress is progress!

 

Phil

[dieselassist]

...some worthwile progress happenin there - from the sorted bottom end, 'the only way is up' as per the YAZZ no'1 hit of the late eighties.... fair play!!

[wuvvum]

Excellent.  This is going to be back on the road before mine at this rate. 

[vulgalour]

Look at it as motivation.  Or a really slow race.  Or both.

[purplebargeken]

Approval rating 11/10

[Eddie Honda]

Don't forget not to turn the engine with the head off, the liners can move and ruin the paper seals. But you probably already know that....

We made sure the correct paper liner gaskets were fitted, that the pistons all pointed the same way (there's marks on the crowns) and that the liners were correctly paired.  There does seem to already be signs of good compression, as there was some necessity to rotate the engine while getting everything in and my brother's gloves were being successfully vacuumed into the bores, that bodes well.

[worries]

 

Where's the pics of the liners clamped down? Where's the pics?

 

[/worries]