Renault 6TL "Crapaud"

[michael1703]

What no VHT on the manifolds you tightarse ?

[vulgalour]

Eddie: no need to worry, everything is fine, nothing moved and all was checked before the head went on.

 

michael1703:  I'm not made of money!  Besides, VHT burns off as soon as everything is up to temperature so it's useless.

[vulgalour]

Today started off well, got the timing chain on and set the timing surprisingly easily.

 

Things were off to a good start today.  Cleaned up and repainted the timing chain cover.

 

Cleaned out the sump too, the bottom of which still had the horrible grey putty under the oil sludge.  Took a while to clean it all up.

 

I need a new sump plug, the old one looks like someone has used a dinosaur to try and release it.  The outside of the sump was a bit pitted from rust and had signs of a bit of a scrape where it looks like the car's hit a rock or something.  Nothing too serious and hidden with a fresh coat of black paint.

 

Feeling pretty good about all this.  Time to get the engine turned over a few times and get the tappets set.  Then something went wrong.

 

 

 

After getting the engine together, setting the static timing and checking it was rotating freely (and I did use assembly lube on everything so it was all nicely oily), somehow a con rod bearing shell slipped when it was rotated, I don't actually have the faintest idea how, and now I have this problem.  The scoring visible in the photograph isn't very visible at all in the real world and there were no scoring marks on the crankshaft before this happened. I've not yet inspected the crankshaft but I'm expecting it too is damaged and will need regrinding unless I'm very, very lucky.  Then I'll have the unenviable task of locating oversized con rod bearings, a prospect I am not relishing.

 

It's the second one from the right in this picture that had spun.

 

I'd like to know how I managed this and what went wrong. I've read other engine rebuild threads where bearings just do this sometimes, both new and old re-used ones.  Where I'm lucky is that this has happened on hand cranking and not when I was driving the car as seems to be the norm for this sort of thing from what I've read over the course of the last year or so.  It's my first full engine rebuild so mistakes are inevitable and hopefully this one won't be too costly to resolve.

 

On the positive side I don't have to dismantle the entire engine to replace the bearings and inspect the crankshaft and before the bearing span the engine did turn over really smoothly and operated all the pushrods as it ought so there was a moment of sunshine today.

 

[MikeKnight]

Had a think and it likely span around before the con rod bolts were tightened, easy to miss, especially if you're tired and/or ill.

[3VOM]

I'm slightly confused here, where is the rest of the bearing? Is there like a 45deg arc piece still in the con rod? I think you may be OK with the crank, the bearings are the soft parts here. Is it possible to get new standard size bearings and just replace what has been damaged?

Had a think and it likely span around before the con rod bolts were tightened, easy to miss, especially if you're tired and/or ill.

I think you could be right, one bearing has slipped over the other and floated round in the oil.

[vulgalour]

I should explain, the picture of the bearing is actually the shell still in the holder for the lower half of the con rod bearing.  The upper half of this bearing shell (they're two parts) is what's slid round.  General consensus does seem to be that I hadn't tightened this bit up enough and hand-turning the engine has moved it and we were getting tired when we put the last few bolts in so that's probably what's happened.

 

Photographs make the damage look far worse than it is, as the macro setting always does.  Clear head tomorrow I'll go in and inspect and clean everything and get new pictures.  Looks like a rookie error.  I don't recall there being any difficulty refitting any of them and that they'd only go in one way.  This is probably a salvageable situation.  I'm getting lots of "don't panic" messages about this, which is reassuring.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I'll be surprised if you've done enough damage turning it by hand to warrant a crank regrind.

[vulgalour]

So good news first then.  The bearing shell cleaned up well enough to be reused, most of the damage was where oil had been displaced.  The crankshaft had no damage at all.  Everything that should be round still was.  Second opinion agreed and a decision was made to put things together, torque it up and hand crank to see how it went.  Everything was fine, no untoward noises or stickiness.  We carried on and bolted things up.  It has been decided that if, upon running the car, there are bad things we will haul it all out and replace the bearings.  I'm told it's likely there will be no issues as the engine is crude enough to get away with it, especially since I'm unlikely to do more than 2000 miles a year in it off motorway.

 

The bad news is that the camera was entirely forgotten about until packing up time.  Got a bit carried away and now appear to have an engine.

 

Here we are, end of day pictures.  This is the business end.  New gaskets for the water pump, plate and pump cleaned up as best I could, it's a difficult shape to work with.  The pump turns freely with no play.  Alternator bracket bolted on but not adjusted.  Belt tensioner loosely bolted in place, not adjusted.  Crankshaft pulley just plonked in place, also not adjusted.   A new crankshaft end seal was fitted too.

 

Timing gear and distributor fitted with new gasket as per static timing instructions.  Ignition timing not yet set.  Still has the old plug leads, rotor arm, points and distributor cap fitted here, I'm finding out what's missing so I can order the consumables in one go.  Vacuum hose still good as is the solid part of the fuel line, the rubber ends of the fuel line need replacing.  Fuel pump fitted with new gaskets.  Oil pressure switch fitted (old one, not yet tested).  Dipstick put back in tube.

 

Cam chain cover and sump repainted, and fitted with new cork gaskets.  Air filter box fitted with old air filter still inside which will be replaced.

 

The less interesting side of the engine.

 

 

Next big job is to clean up the gearbox and fit the new clutch kit.  I've already got new points and rotor arm, I need to acquire a new air filter, oil filter, spark plugs, spark leads, possibly a distributor cap (though the one fitted does look quite healthy), at least one drive belt and a bunch of rubber fuel hoses.  May need some coolant hoses too, I need to check through those properly.

[dollywobbler]

Fantastic.

[Parky]

Top stuff!

[PhilA]

Looking good.

 

I'd say once you have the box back on, whip out the plugs and spin it over on the starter motor. Test with bulb-and-wire or a multimeter and see if you get the oil pressure switch to open. If you do, put plugs back in and see how it sounds on compression. If it all sounds horrible it's easier taking it to bits before you put it back in the hole.

 

--Phil

[vulgalour]

That provides a solution.  I wanted to test the engine before it went in the car and wasn't sure how I was going to do it.  There's not much more to put together now really, I just need to grab a few more bits to get it moving.

[MikeKnight]

If you do spin it over out the car put some oil in it first. The assembly lube doesn't last forever nor is it designed for long term use.

[vulgalour]

I was planning to put the required amount of oil in to test run it.

[purplebargeken]

That bright orangey red is really going to clash with the green bodywork. You know that right?

[vulgalour]

It's not orangey, that's the camera at work.  It's just pillar box red.  I can't change it, I'll lose 5bhp.

[purplebargeken]

Ah, pillar box red. Fair enough.

[KruJoe]

Was that paint left over from your Polo? 

 

Rover, I think

[vulgalour]

Bit of a flat day today. Ages ago I bought what should have been the correct clutch, on inspection it appeared to check out. However, on attempting to fit it today it is not correct. I bought it so long ago I can't even return it now and funds are too far depleted to go and buy the correct one. That's another problem I'm now having too, I can't seem to find a clutch kit listed anywhere for this engine just more like the one I bought that I know is wrong.

 

The big difference is that the spline shaft hole on the friction plate is too small. Superficially in every other way the kit is the same as that fitted to the car. This has really annoyed me. The old clutch is, realistically, far too worn to be of much use but without a clutch fitted I can't put the engine and gearbox back in the car where it belongs. Any help locating the correct clutch for this car would be most welcome.

 

We did other jobs too, but nothing of enough significance to report.

[panhard65]

Try the owners club for a clutch or get the old one re-lined shouldn't cost a lot about 35 quid the last one I had done for a Fregate

[seth]

Good to see this coming together and glad the bearing woes seem to have been resolved.

 

As Panhard says, you must be able to get the old plate re-lined and if all else is the same use the new cover/bearing with it.  I'd have thought re-lining must still be a pretty common procedure in the vintage/very old car world.

[vulgalour]

I didn't know that was a thing.  Where would I go for that service?  It's only really the friction plate that doesn't fit, the cover plate and release bearing fit perfectly fine.  Also, cast iron gearboxes are frikkin heavy!

[vulgalour]

Been trawling around the internet and found a clutch plate that looks to be correct for under £15 delivered.  The budget can stretch to that.  It's the same design as the old one and looks to have the same measurements.  We'll see if it's right when it arrives next week.

[vulgalour]

That clutch plate was wrong too!  Luckily, Mr Reno on another forum came to the rescue yet again and has pointed me to the correct kit on Jolly Good Car Spares and I'm hoping to get a refund on the second wrong clutch before it's even posted.

 

What a sodding nightmare.

[PhilA]

Believe me, I understand.

 

It'll be worth it.

 

 

--Phil

[vulgalour]

Now acquired:

correct clutch kit

oil filter

air filter

spark plugs

distributor cap

20w50 oil

 

I forgot to get fuel hose and the second drive belt and even though I couldn't get the spark leads it looks like the ones with the car can probably be used, they're stiff but without green fur or cracked casings so might do in a pinch.  Got a spare battery I can use.

 

The plan tomorrow is to try and get the gearbox attached to the engine and both then fitted back into the car.  If I get as far as starting it I'll be very excited.  Should at least get engine and 'box in, driveshafts reconnected and the front end together enough to be back on its wheels if not driving yet.  We'll see how much of a fight things put up.

[vulgalour]

New clutch fitted, gearbox on surprisingly easily with the assistance of the engine crane, starter motor bolted on and then a decision made to do this:

 

It isn't running yet, there's still a few more things to button up.  You see, the weather decided to come over all Welsh, probably to celebrate the momentous occasion of this little car finally being reunited with its mechanical heart.

 

It was raining so heavily there was no point even putting the cover back on so when things are dry again I'll have to bail out the interior.  Not far off coming off the axle stands now though and that means it's not far off coming home either.

 

[ruffgeezer]

Great work, this is autoshite proper right here.

[vulgalour]

No expense spent!

[Parky]

C'est Fugly, mais c'est magnifique Aussi! Bravo mon brave!