Renault 6TL "Crapaud"

[michael1703]

I'd stick the block and crankshaft in the boot of your rover and take it to an engine reconditioners.

 

If the cranks oval or the bearing caps are shagged they will tell you and advise a course of action

 

If all is hunky dory you've got piece of mind from an engine expert

 

The place I use don't charge for looking, you might be surprised, give a reconditioners a ring and ask

[vulgalour]

Chompy reminded me that somewhere in the scant history that did come with the car that bearings were mentioned so I got the folder out and had a look tonight. Maybe it will help shed some light on potential problem, though I doubt it, there's not much to go on. Let's see if I can do some detective work with the tiny amount of info I have.

 

The V5C tells me that the number of previous owners is 2

 

The Renault warranty card tells me the following:

First owner's name

First owner's address in Llanelli

Delivery date: 8/4/75

Registration: HEP920N (this confirms the warranty card was at least originally for this car, so I assume the info on it is too)

 

18/4/75

Pinged Hill Garage (stamped, this lines up with the old sticker in the tailgate window)

First service at 571 miles

 

Note: owner I bought the car from acquired the car 20/02/1976 according to the V5. I have a copy of the V5 too from this change of ownership "duplicate issued as lost" is written on it and the car is listed as green. I wonder if that means it was painted at just a year old or, more likely, the blue bodyshell was a later replacement with the green panels being the originals to the car, meaning it was originally that nice metallic green. Who knows?

 

28/04/1976 - 8,200 miles

(no information written down)

 

10/1978 - 45,000 miles

New piston rings, bearings, clutch, etc.

 

08/1978 - 51,900 miles

(no information written down)

Note: I think they meant to write 1979 but wrote 1978 instead, it would make more sense.

 

I also have tax discs for 1984, 1985, 1988, 1992 and 1993.

 

There's a single piece of paper with notes on fuses, wiring and illegible hints of column/stalk problems. It might not even be for this car, though I suspect it is because it does look like it's been rewired front to back at some point, the loom doesn't look original.

 

From that I can see the first owner only kept the car for a year and did a reasonable 8,000 miles.

The second owner then whacked a massive 18,400 per year for two years leading to the car needing piston rings, bearings, clutch and whatever else etc is! I've never actually paid attention to the mileage figures but that's pretty amazing, I can't imagine driving the 6 that much over that short a period, it's no wonder it needed work.

I expect the next and last entry was supposed to be a 1979, it's the same handwriting, even looks like it was the same biro, and is a more reasonable 7,000ish miles.

After that there's nothing at all to hint at what was going on so it's anybody's guess.

 

The 5 digit odometer currently reads 32,000. I'm going to assume that it's actually 132,000, that seems quite likely. I'm also going to assume the car came off the road in 1993 which is when the last tax disc ran out. So that's 80,100 miles covered over 15 years, divide one by the other and it's an average annual mileage of 5,340 which is entirely believable.

 

That really tells me the car was probably run until it wouldn't run anymore. It had signs of head gasket failure and it clearly has some bottom end issues. The engine waterways were full of sediment and the oil was horrible old sludge that hadn't been changed in an age. So, more than anything, that's probably the cause of whatever the problem is.

[michael1703]

So you've just assembled an engine incorrectly and you're blaming the service history?

 

Top shiteing!

[Louise2cv]

There is a series on S4C at the moment, Cymru ar Ffilm (Wales on film) that is one of these clips from the archives of local news/magazine programs showing us day to day life in the old days.

 

On the opening credits there is a glimpse of a metallic green square light 6, at least that's what OI think it is, parked behind a film crew.

 

I like to believe that it is this very car.

[320touring]

^^top detectoring Louise!

[vulgalour]

So you've just assembled an engine incorrectly and you're blaming the service history?

 

Top shiteing!

 

Not sure if this is a joke or a criticism or mild trolling.  Service history cannot be used to excuse any mistake I may have made, inexperience and bad instructions are the reasons for that.

[vulgalour]

Right so, we have the Renault back at home now rather than at the unit.  This is really useful as I now have all the bits of the car in an easy to get to location next to internet access so I can tinker or do larger jobs at my leisure much easier.  No more the 8 mile round trip just to do a quick five minute job!  Today, Mike and I pushed the Renault out onto the drive so we could have a bit of a sort of the garage and I could get the hosepipe into the rear arches to clean them out properly, the water pressure at the unit is very low so I couldn't do a great job there.  Front arches proved to be quite clean as I'd had excellent access when the wings were off to really scrub everything properly.

 

I wasn't really expecting quite as much mud as I found.

 

What was nice was discovering just how solid everything really is.  The trailing arms and some of the inner wings could do with a lick of paint and some protection to keep things this way but it's all remarkably good.  Check out my green rear shocks that were previously just mud coloured.

 

 

 

 

I pulled out the strips of aluminium that had been used as mud guards.  I haven't binned these as they'd actually done a remarkably good job of keep the mud out of the upper reaches of the rear arches, there was barely anything above them.

 

Repeat the hosing and scrubbing on the other side, remove yet more mud.

 

Same story this side.  You can see the metallic blue of the bodyshell (which I'm now fairly certain is a replacement) and just a hint of the car's original metallic green on the trailing arm mount.

 

Again, the inner arch is in very good shape.  What's confusing is that there appears to be no repairs or rust holes in the inner arch but there are substantially sized patches rivetted to the inside of the bodyshell.  I had thought this was a single-skinned piece, perhaps it isn't?

 

 

Filler neck looked quite new compared to everything else, I wonder if it was replaced or if they just last really well.

 

After all the gunge and sludge had been flushed out as best I could we pushed the car down the drive to clean up and I put the other screw into the driver's door arm rest so it stays in place when you use it now.

 

I also found out that the missing switch is for the rear screen demister.  So I'll need one of those since mine appears to be wired up, there's just no switch present.

 

I wondered if there's supposed to be a cap or a plug for the trailing arm mount.  I flushed all the mud and rust flakes I could out of the hole.  Everything appears quite solid just devoid of paint.  I'll get this area cleaned up and given a coat of something to keep it solid, I've been told this is one of the main weak points on these cars and I'd like to keep mine as solid as I can.  They look a bit flakey in the photograph but they're really not, I gave them a good poke and it's just the remnants of underseal, mud and detritus stained with some surface corrosion.

 

 

 

 

No expense spent on the one not-Michelin tyre.  How cheap must this have been in the mid-90s?  Marshal 777

 

The tracking on the front is off, I think this is because there's no engine or gearbox in there.  Lots and lots of toe in and positive camber which can make the car difficult to push to begin with.  All the hubs spin quite freely though the brand new brakes on the front definitely need to bed in a bit.

 

Replaced the bolts fixing the ball joints to the wishbones that had got bent and installed them the correct way around.  These are high tensile steel so should be fine.  I was surprised the brake dust shields were still servicable as they're made from wafer thin steel.

 

 

The floor is remarkably sound, well undersealed for the most part and relatively free of mud.  This is a good thing.

 

I have enough space in the garage to walk all the way around the car and work on the engine.  I'd forgotten about my little blue trolley, it's ideal for moving the engine about.  Didn't get as far as doing any measuring today, it was all about getting the Renault settled into its new house.

[doubleyeller]

You're thinking of throwing in the towel? WE DIDN'T WIN THE WAR THAT WAY YOU KNOW!!!! 

Keep going with it, there have been numerous times with my Renault 20 that I've felt like giving up - ie cam belt failure, 2 electrical fires, seized starter, seized wiper motor. I could go on and on! Every time I'm ready to give up and scrap it, I remind myself that 70's Renners are rare for a reason!

[vulgalour]

When asked "what's wrong with it?" I now say "It's a Renault". This is always met with a sad understanding expression or nervous laughter.  Seeing your 20 running was actually a bit of a boost, as was being able to do the above today at home.  Somehow feels easier having the car at home even though I've still got just as much work to do.

[doubleyeller]

When asked "what's wrong with it?" I now say "It's a Renault". This is always met with a sad understanding expression or nervous laughter.  Seeing your 20 running was actually a bit of a boost, as was being able to do the above today at home.  Somehow feels easier having the car at home even though I've still got just as much work to do.

 

I just plod along on the understanding that the R20 is never going to be a reliable daily driver - but nor does it need to be, as I can walk to work. You've got a great garage of other cars anyways - I wish I could have kept hold of my 214 SLI, so I'm jealous of your 414! Such a great, nippy engine, and only a 1.4! What's the state of play with the Princess atm?

[vulgalour]

Princess is just waiting on some olives arriving for the 1/2" compression joint so the suspension can be pumped up.  Once that's done it's wiring, fitting the better tyres I've got, new clutch and possibly crank end seal, oil change, coolant change, reseal the exhaust, fit the headlights and... MoT?  Not far off at any rate.  Probably coming home once the suspension is pumped up again so I can do the other jobs easier.

[Eddie Honda]

I also found out that the missing switch is for the rear screen demister.  So I'll need one of those since mine appears to be wired up, there's just no switch present.

I've just been in the shed and found 4 switches, everything but not the HRW one. If you want one I can probably get you one from the DAF daddy of Essex. Would you like me to ask Matt?

[greengartside]

There is a series on S4C at the moment, Cymru ar Ffilm (Wales on film) that is one of these clips from the archives of local news/magazine programs showing us day to day life in the old days.

 

On the opening credits there is a glimpse of a metallic green square light 6, at least that's what OI think it is, parked behind a film crew.

 

I like to believe that it is this very car.

 

Here is the (slightly blurred) screenshot of the opening credits. Do you know I think Louise is right, I can sort of make out the 'HEP' at the start of the plate.

 

[doubleyeller]

Princess is just waiting on some olives arriving for the 1/2" compression joint so the suspension can be pumped up.  Once that's done it's wiring, fitting the better tyres I've got, new clutch and possibly crank end seal, oil change, coolant change, reseal the exhaust, fit the headlights and... MoT?  Not far off at any rate.  Probably coming home once the suspension is pumped up again so I can do the other jobs easier.

I wish I had my own garage/workshop space! My main challenge  with the R20 is going to be finding a way to get her presentably painted without breaking the (rather limited) budget! She has some surface rust around the rear quarter-lights and along the tailgate. she will also have a repair panel to replace the rotten rear arch, and anyway, the offside front wing is blue!  Can I be nosey and ask how much it's costing you to do the whoIe car with Rustoleum or whatever it's called? I don't know what you paid for the Princess, but MOT'd versions are getting pricey these days! I would love to have a crack at doing up the Ambassador that's on Gumtree atm, but £850?! 10 years ago, you could get a reasonable Ambassador with tax and test for £200 sheets - having a Shite is getting to be a rich man's game!

[captain_70s]

Here is the (slightly blurred) screenshot of the opening credits. Do you know I think Louise is right, I can sort of make out the 'HEP' at the start of the plate.

 Watching in HD with subtitles reveals this:

 

[vulgalour]

Eddie:  yes please!  That would be much appreciated.  Otherwise it's £20 and a wait for one to come from Spain.  Â£20 seems an awful lot for a little switch.

 

I'm going to happily go along with Louise's and greengartside's excellent sleuthing and assume this car is a famous television personality.  It's entirely likely it is as well, that's the brilliant thing, providing the film is from somewhere between April 1975 and December 1993

 

Doubleyeller:  Â£450 for the Princess with MoT in 2012.  I couldn't buy the same car for the same money now if it came up for sale so I'm glad I bought it when I did!  The Rustoleum is about £8 a tin, you can sometimes get cheaper bulk orders on eBay.  It does need lacquer as it can fade without it.  You need at least 2 tins of colour per panel, I'd recommend 4 for best coverage, it can therefore be a bit pricey.  For me it works since I'm doing things piecemeal and can spread the cost out further.  As a rough estimate, 13 panels (wing x2, front valance, bonnet, roof, door x4, rear wing x2, boot lid, rear valance) at £16-32 per panel is £208-416.  Plus whatever lacquer you put on and any primer, filler and sandpaper of course.  Rustoleum is compatible with most acrylic paints, I've not had it react with anything I've used yet that's acrylic based.

[Eddie Honda]

I'll ask Matt. I'll PM when I hear from him.

[purplebargeken]

Matt is a grand bloke and I am sure he will assist.

 

Look forward to the rustoleum application. 

[HMC]

I must say I'm impressed at your commitment and drive to see the project through, I wish I had some of it!!

 

Also impressed as you say about the rear inner wing condition, very tidy and far less rust than those of my puma.

[PhilA]

It's funny to look at the underbody shots and compare how similar my GTA is underneath, as an 1987 model. Then I consider the actual age of the design, which is early 80's and realize that it's not all that far ahead of this one.

 

Don't give up with it. It should be simple enough to make reliable enough to trust to go fetch jaffa cakes and a loaf of bread (i.e. Walking distance)

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

Right, first bit of news from the engine shop I dropped the Renault's engine off with at the end of last week.  That's much quicker than I was expecting, tbh.  On their first inspection they suspect muddled caps - NOT MY FAULT!  They're in the order they were when I dismantled everything - to be the reason for the crank locking when everything is torqued up.  They want to be extra sure that it's not something else so were asking my permission to take the head off.

 

I'm not precious about my work on this one, it's my first attempt at an engine rebuild and they've done lots and lots so it'll be reassuring to know everything is as it ought to be.  Bill so far is £70-80, it's uncomfortable not really knowing how much things like this are going to cost until they're done but needs must.

 

Fingers crossed it really does just need new bearings and possibly a crank regrind, then I've got very little to do to sort this little monster out.

[PhilA]

Makes me wonder if an undersized set of shells got stuck in without the crank having been reground, to "fix" a low oil pressure problem and/or noisy bottom end.

 

Was it only tight to turn around one half of the rotation?

 

--Phil

[vulgalour]

It was tight enough to clamp the crankshaft completely but only on one cap.  I'd suspected it was locked when I got it because of one piston being stuck but now I'm more inclined to believe someone had tried to repair it and done it wrong.  Certainly, I wasn't the first person to go in this engine so it's likely someone before me didn't take so much care.  Thing is, you could get it to rotate quite nicely on the starter, just not by hand.

[PhilA]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, it's always fun* to go in behind someone else who'd either bodged it because they had no other fiscal choice, or couldn't find the right parts or just didn't know or care how to do the job.

 

Once sorted it should be reliable, at least. Good to hear you didn't lose faith in it.

 

--Phil

[vulgalour]

With the Renault outside waiting for the engine to come back, the weather decided to help me with some more leak hunting.  Here we go then, a tour of the leaks and what I think I need to do to fix them.

 

To start with, the boot is still letting water in, as evidenced by this puddle on the parcel shelf.

 

Taken me a while to figure this one out entirely but it looks like it's getting past the boot seal itself which has certainly seen better days.  Looks like a generic profile on the seal so shouldn't be too bad to replace.  It's coming in through the rear screen seal as well but nowhere near as badly as through the main boot seal.

 

 

The other puddle is this one.

 

That's caused by the side windows which also don't seal well, partly because the seals are too short.  They just need a blob more sealant where the gap is to sort this. Looks like it's getting through just at the bottom edge of the sealant bridge.  Really I should fit new seals to these rear windows to resolve this and again they look like a generic profile so I might do that in the future.

 

 

Next, this big old lake under the passenger seat.  Here's where we get into the territory of difficult to locate leaks because on the passenger side there's a lot of them.

 

Most of it is coming through the top of the rear door.

 

 

Mainly because the stick-on seal (factory standard as far as I can tell) is knackered on all the doors and more knackered than the rest on this one.  Admittedly, having gutters on the car would help lessen this as the water would be channeled away from them and I have priced up replacement universal guttering to do just that.  Door seals will help too anyway in keeping the water out on the move.

 

The windscreen had appeared to have stopped leaking.  Unfortunately that isn't the case and it is still letting water in along the top edge.  I'm going to squidge more sealant into the top of the windscreen seal as was done when I got the car.  At least with a cloth headlining I can see where it's coming in and have some idea of where to put the sealant.  So, passenger side first which again is the worst side.

 

The door seal on the front door is also shot, the door doesn't fit as well as the others either, and that's letting water get in at the sill.

 

What was confusing me was that water did just appear in the footwell on the passenger side and I could never figure out how.  Liberal poofing about of talcum powder highlighted just how it's doing it.  Water is running down the outside of the bulkhead and then seeping through the body-to-chassis seam and into the car.  That's more difficult to resolve, to do it properly it's going to be a body-off job so I can put some proper sealant/tape on before bolting the body back to the chassis.  The bulkhead above this seam is completely dry.

 

Driver's side of the windscreen is also letting a small amount of water in.

 

As with the passenger door, the seal is shot and water is getting in and pooling on the sill.  There is another drip from under the dash somewhere just to the right of the pedals and I've not figured that one out yet.  I might have to fix the other leaks to find it.  There is a small splash to the right of the pedal that highlights the leak, it's not massively clear in the photograph.

 

 

None of these leaks are a huge worry for now, I've emptied the car of anything that might be damaged by the water and since it's at home I can mop it out regularly.  Once the engine is fitted I can get the car back in the garage out of the weather.  Your recommendations for where to obtain generic seals are welcome, just remember the ones on the doors are a self-adhesive foam strip type, there's not channel to fix a conventional seal to.

[Mally]

I have massive experience with leaks.

Only ever fixed one satisfactorily.

Knocking a hole through the floor at the lowest point tends to keep your feet dry.

[plasticvandan]

Seals direct are pretty good

[MikeKnight]

[vulgalour]

You're right, perhaps I should try rotating the seals to see if that helps.

[vulgalour]

AKS DASIS 180030N ????

 

A German vendor circa 80 quid: http://www.autodoc.co.uk/aks-dasis/1724473

 

That's one of those ordered, finally, because nowhere else appears to stock this exact design.  Free postage too so only £85 with a 2 year warranty which is pretty good for a brand new radiator and considerably cheaper than repairing the existing one.

 

Ordered yet another head gasket since I doubt I can reuse the one that was fitted after the machine shop needed to pull off the head to inspect everything inside which was £20.

 

My Woolies door seal arrived today too, which was about £63 in total for 13 metres, enough to do all four doors.

 

Apart from tyres, that should be *everything* bought.  I've still got to pay the engine shop for the inspection and fixing of the problem - definitely muddled caps, as it happens - so I'm waiting on a call from them to say it's ready to collect and my bill which will likely be at least £60.  November is an expensive month for this car!