Jeep Cherokee

[John F]

Just buy this Discovery, Eddy:

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15567

 

Job done.

[warren t claim]

A Voyager?

Have a read up on them first, Eddy. God awful things with a terrible crash rating.

They may only have a single ncap star for occupant safety but they've got four stars for pedestrian safety so at least if you run someone over they'll come off better than you.

[Cavcraft]

All the same the AA do seem to be very good at strapping cars down these days.

[RichardMoss]

I have a selection of Jeeps at the moment and so far they have been reasonably reliable - especially given they abuse they take when off-roading here in the desert. I have a manual 4L XJ Cherokee (1995), an auto 4L ZJ Grand Cherokee (1996) and an auto 4.7L WJ Grand Cherokee (2001).

 

XJ Cherokees are small inside - think of them as a 4WD mk4 Escort estate and you have an idea what sort of size they are. Don't expect Range Rover size but then you won't have to pay Range Rover bills or deal with Range Rover reliability. What you will get is something with the off-road capability of a series 3 Landrover but with MUCH higher levels of comfort, reliability and performance.

 

The off-road weapons of choice here are 15 year old Wranglers, XJ Cherokees and 15 year old Nissan Patrols. A few people try to use modern Landrover Discos (oh how we laugh as we tow them off the top of tiny little crests or out of shallow bowls) and there are a few old Landcruisers in use. The XJ acquits itself really well and costs a lot less money than the Japanese stuff.

 

The ZJ Grand Cherokee is the same running gear in a bigger body (so has slightly less performance) and the WJ Grand Cherokee (1999 onwards) is quite simply shite off road, but makes a decent enough road car (apart from fuel consumption).

 

Both the XJ and ZJ are easy to work on - and despite the slightly smaller size, the XJ is probably the easier of the two. Parts are cheap, easy to get, easy to fit and very few special tools are required. There are EIGHT balljoints in the front suspension and steering, so plenty of scope for play due to wear but are easy to replace. Suspension arm bushes take some abuse - again, easy swap and cheap. Electrics can be a bit hit or miss (especially if you are unlucky enough to have a really old XJ with French "Renix" electronics) but again, most stuff is easy enough to sort. I guess that rust would be an issue in the UK (not here, though!) and the trim is every bit as ghastly and fragile as you'd expect from a 1980's designed Yank.

 

The NP/NV 249 "Quadratrac" permanent 4WD transfer box is unreliable and expensive to fix - the NP242 and NP231 (both of which have a 2WD option and are called "Selectrac" and "Commandtrac") are fine. Basically, any Jeep without a 2WD option is a BAD THING and should be avoided.

 

Great DIY cars, easy to work on and of course you can get underneath without needing to jack them up.

[John F]

A few people try to use modern Landrover Discos (oh how we laugh as we tow them off the top of tiny little crests or out of shallow bowls)

 

Their drivers must be shit at driving, then, because otherwise you are spouting 24-carat arse gravy.

[garbaldy]

A few people try to use modern Landrover Discos (oh how we laugh as we tow them off the top of tiny little crests or out of shallow bowls)

 

Their drivers must be shit at driving, then, because otherwise you are spouting 24-carat arse gravy.

 

 

well actually there is some truth in what richardmoss says,

most of the landrover drivers that go on the outings ive been on seem to think they can drive through anything right up to the point where they ask for the japshite to pull them out

[Pete-M]

I got kicked out of my local Land Rover Society for having the temerity to take a turbocharged W&P Range Rover on a day out with them. They all had "Essential" off road equipment, big tyres, winches, waffle boards, high lift jacks, radios, huge tyres etc. I had a very road biased Rangie Classic on OEM spec Michelin M&S tyres.

 

I'm pretty sure mine was about the only one to finish the day unscathed, so they kicked me out of their club.

 

A standard Rangie will absolutely massacre a ZJ off road. Utterly annihilate it without even trying. I've owned both and there there really is no comparison. The ZJ is about 80% as good at anything as a Rangie, but the ZJ is less likely to break. Having said that, I've never had a Rangie break so it wouldn't get home under its own steam.

[Morgan84]

What about a Kia Sedona ? Very nice big motor at sensible money

[andrew e]

^^^ A good choice, I bought one new in January 2004 (ET53NBK DVLA says tax died 10/11/05) and after she short wheelbased it (held up rather well against a scaffold wagon, no front left but doors opened) bought the Grand Voyager 18 months later. Lost about £2500 off the new invoice - 17% of original purchase for 18 months heavy use - of couse there worthless now!

 

Liked brake pads, and premium Xl tyres (I used Goodyears) transformed the grip and braking distances. Nothing went wrong or fell off, Its sister cleared a 100k in 3 years without incident or expense.

[John F]

A few people try to use modern Landrover Discos (oh how we laugh as we tow them off the top of tiny little crests or out of shallow bowls)

 

Their drivers must be shit at driving, then, because otherwise you are spouting 24-carat arse gravy.

 

 

well actually there is some truth in what richardmoss says,

most of the landrover drivers that go on the outings ive been on seem to think they can drive through anything right up to the point where they ask for the japshite to pull them out

 

Then they simply can't drive properly, as I said above.

 

Disco in 45° action:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEd4qdvN ... ure=g-hist

[Lacquer Peel]

A Voyager?

Have a read up on them first, Eddy. God awful things with a terrible crash rating.

They may only have a single ncap star for occupant safety but they've got four stars for pedestrian safety so at least if you run someone over they'll come off better than you.

 

Eddy seems quite happy running about in vehicles that pre-date Euro NCAP by decades.

[eddyramrod]

A Voyager?

Have a read up on them first, Eddy. God awful things with a terrible crash rating.

They may only have a single ncap star for occupant safety but they've got four stars for pedestrian safety so at least if you run someone over they'll come off better than you.

 

Eddy seems quite happy running about in vehicles that pre-date Euro NCAP by decades.

 

Eddy insists on running about in vehicles that pre-date Euro NCAP by decades! So that's no worry; just get as much steel as possible around you and drive defensively.

 

Just buy this Discovery, Eddy:

 

http://autoshite.commlm/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15567

 

Job done.

 

It's black, therefore off the menu. I actually wouldn't mind otherwise, but a Disco is a bit too tall for Mrs R, sadly.

 

No, no, no you've got it all wrong you want this, a petrol Espace with LPG and an Autobox.

 

http://www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/renault-espace-7-seater-with-lpg-conversionlpgautomatic/1004582795

 

It's French. See above.

 

Actually the Kia Sedona did make the list, in V6 auto form obviously. Unfortunately that spec is a bit thin on the ground, and even thinner when you take the greyscale ones out. One thing that works mightily in favour of the Cherokee is, Mrs R can get in and out of it! I wasn't sure we would find a 4x4 that she could, and that I would drive, so all my hunting has been focused on the people-carriers. This thing just kind of fell across my path.

[Morgan84]

Toyota Previa maybe ?

Hyundai Trajet

Ssangyong Kyron

Ford Galaxy V6 auto/ VW Sharan V6

Or go the shite way and find a Vauxhall Sintra

[skattrd]

How about a Nissan Prairie or a Mitsubishi Space Runner/RVR ... Smallish MPV, higher than a std car and not horrible to drive. The RVR is 4wd, but grey import only.

If you want to go smaller how about the Suzuki SJ or a Pajero Junior/Pinin/Mini.

If you're thinking v6 then theres the VW Sharan VR6 4-Motion for a 4wd people carrier

 

For extra shite points though how high is a Fronterror? or a gaylander with a k-series enjin?

[RichardMoss]

A few people try to use modern Landrover Discos (oh how we laugh as we tow them off the top of tiny little crests or out of shallow bowls)

 

Their drivers must be shit at driving, then, because otherwise you are spouting 24-carat arse gravy.

 

The issue here is the terrain - very, VERY soft, dry sand. The weight of the Discovery (badged LR3 here), plus its long-ish wheelbase and relatively low ground clearance is the problem. Lighter vehicles do better - my XJ pretty much floats across the sand, as do the old Wranglers and SWB Patrols, whereas the LR3 tends to bog down and/or get stuck on sharp crests. The 19" wheels with standard 275(?)/60 tyres don't help because here we run the tyres at low pressures (typically 11psi on my ZJ and XJ) to get them to bulge out and give a wider footprint - but those low profile tyres on the LR3 don't bulge in the same way. 18" is the smallest wheel that will fit over the brakes, I believe, so there's not much help in trying to go down to a smaller wheel with (slightly) bigger tyre.

 

The LR3 does OK on rocky terrain, but is simply shit on soft sand.

 

My XJ rescuing an LR3 (skip forward to about 3.10): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=593iyXm2 ... 8jujcjas_w

 

Landcruisers and LWB Patrols get away with their weight because they can be run on huge sand tyres. The LR3 doesn't have the clearance under the arches to do that.

 

Range Rover Classics and Discovery 1s seem to do OK - if they can be kept serviceable long enough to get out into the desert AND home in one piece.

[RichardMoss]

A standard Rangie will absolutely massacre a ZJ off road. Utterly annihilate it without even trying. I've owned both and there there really is no comparison. The ZJ is about 80% as good at anything as a Rangie, but the ZJ is less likely to break. Having said that, I've never had a Rangie break so it wouldn't get home under its own steam.

Horses for courses (see post above)

[Pete-M]

Admittedly I've not spent much time off roading in deserts.

 

ZJ is only 100 or so kg less than a Range Rover Classic and has a lot less ground clearance.

[RichardMoss]

Admittedly I've not spent much time off roading in deserts.

 

ZJ is only 100 or so kg less than a Range Rover Classic and has a lot less ground clearance.

As I said, Range Rover Classics are capable (if tricky to keep serviceable). My ZJ has standard Up Country springs from the factory (1" extra clearance) and I've fitted a 2" lift, making for 3" extra clearance over the norm.

 

Weights:

ZJ 4L: 1621kg

ZJ V8: 1769kg

XJ 4L: 1523kg

RR Classic: 2011kg (according to http://www.4wdonline.com/LandRover/RR1.html). Discovery 1 and 2 are similar weights, as is the Jeep WJ V8.

 

Therefore the Range Rover Classic, Discovery 1 and 2 and Jeep WJ V8 are nearly 400kg heavier than my ZJ 4L and half a tonne heavier than my XJ. That makes a difference.......

 

LR3 : 2419kg - or 50% heavier than a ZJ 4L. It really shows. The LR3 is almost a tonne heavier than the XJ.

[John F]

The issue here is the terrain - very, VERY soft, dry sand. The weight of the Discovery (badged LR3 here), plus its long-ish wheelbase and relatively low ground clearance is the problem. Lighter vehicles do better - my XJ pretty much floats across the sand, as do the old Wranglers and SWB Patrols, whereas the LR3 tends to bog down and/or get stuck on sharp crests. The 19" wheels with standard 275(?)/60 tyres don't help because here we run the tyres at low pressures (typically 11psi on my ZJ and XJ) to get them to bulge out and give a wider footprint - but those low profile tyres on the LR3 don't bulge in the same way. 18" is the smallest wheel that will fit over the brakes, I believe, so there's not much help in trying to go down to a smaller wheel with (slightly) bigger tyre.

 

The LR3 does OK on rocky terrain, but is simply shit on soft sand.

 

My XJ rescuing an LR3 (skip forward to about 3.10): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=593iyXm2 ... 8jujcjas_w

 

Landcruisers and LWB Patrols get away with their weight because they can be run on huge sand tyres. The LR3 doesn't have the clearance under the arches to do that.

 

Range Rover Classics and Discovery 1s seem to do OK - if they can be kept serviceable long enough to get out into the desert AND home in one piece.

 

Ahhh, OK. The later Discos are heavy brutes, that's true.

[Pete-M]

I thought the RRC came in a little bit lighter than that around 1950 kg but could be wrong.. I know my ZJ Grand Cherokee 4.0 LTD hit 2 tons on the scales because that surprised me when I saw the printout.

[RichardMoss]

Everywhere I search on the 'net I come up with weights under 1700kg. My Jeep factory manual gives gross vehicle weight but not kerb weights (or CURB weights as the Yanks will insist - but then they can't spell LAZER correctly, either, even though it's an acronym!).

[John F]

Everywhere I search on the 'net I come up with weights under 1700kg. My Jeep factory manual gives gross vehicle weight but not kerb weights (or CURB weights as the Yanks will insist - but then they can't spell LAZER correctly, either, even though it's an acronym!).

 

Nobody ever accused the septics of having the wit to write - or, for that matter, think - properly.

[Pete-M]

Ye Olde Grand Cherokee was used for dragging quite a few things over the Bridge of Doom when I owned it, and it always read around 2 tons. Ok, it had LPG fitted but I don't believe for a minute that a gas tank and a few pipes comes in at 300 kg... Especially as the LPG tank was rarely full...

[messerschmitt owner]

Ye Olde Grand Cherokee was used for dragging quite a few things over the Bridge of Doom when I owned it, and it always read around 2 tons. Ok, it had LPG fitted but I don't believe for a minute that a gas tank and a few pipes comes in at 300 kg... Especially as the LPG tank was rarely full...

or that a scrapyard weighbridge would ever read over!!!!

[eddyramrod]

Well I'm certainly learning about serious off-roading here! It's somewhat redundant though as even if I do buy a 4x4, I don't expect to go any further off-road than Asda's car park...

 

The "other" suggestions are interesting, and thank you; I have already considered several of them. A couple of people have suggested the VW Sharan though: clearly forgetting that before the Spam Invasion, I stated categorically on this very forum that I will never own a VAG product. I stand by that assertion. It also throws out the Ford Galaxy and SEAT Alhambra, obviously, as they are the same car. But even if it didn't, are you telling me it's possible to find them as a V6 automatic, in an actual colour? I haven't found anything other than grey diesels, which simply won't do.

 

You could in fact apply that comment to many of the other models I've been looking at. It's all very well for the manufacturer to offer, on paper, a top-of-the-range V6 auto with all the luxury kit, but 15 years down the line, when I want one, where are they? And why bother with a colour chart when everyone orders their new one in grey?

 

So, I'm searching by spec, and eliminating the things I specifically don't want... and getting a pretty sparse watch list out of it. If something drops on my toe that seems to tick a lot of boxes, I'm therefore going to look closely before I reject it. This is the stage I'm now at with this Jeep.

[Pete-M]

The 2.8 VR6 Galaxy could be had as a 4x4 auto, if memory serves me right. They go indecently well but like a drink. You'll do well getting more than low 20s from one.

[Pete-M]

 

Not a 4x4 one, but it's BEIGE. In fact, if you don't, I might.

[Pete-M]

With leather, swivelling captains chairs, ffs. £900 quid? That'll do the job.

 

[Morgan84]

Them Ultima V6 models are a lovely luxury feel motor,and they sound great. Deffinately worth considering

[skattrd]

I forgot the no VW thing Eddy ...

Anyway, here's a Sharan VR6 4-motion just to prove they do exist. It's manual though, can't see any reasonably priced auto's atm.

That Galaxy does look rather nice Pete.