The summit has been reached...

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Dealers aren't all bad. Some are okay (like the MB place you work for), but too many are robbing bastards on the make. The big PLC dealer chains are the worst.

 

A mate of mine took his car into a Sy***r BMW place for a service. They tried to have his pants down for £2200 for a rack and a PAS pump because of "swarf in the oil". Took it somewhere else and yes, it was fine.

Another one had a 330d with a blown turbo and took it to the same establishment. They also fitted a new ECU because 'the old one couldn't be recoded'. Err, you don't recode the ECU when fitting a new turbo. A blatant rip off.

The same guy took his 307HDi to a main dealer and they tried to have £800 out of him to fix a coolant leak that didn't exist. So, just because you go to a franchised dealer doesn't guarantee that they won't try and fuck you over.

As ever, it's recommendations that are the best gauge of how decent a dealer or indy are.

 

Even better, service it yourself.

[Guest]

I wasn't 'slagging' main dealers off, a term I despise in fact.

 

Just that you'd expect them to know their stuff rather than just stick it on a computer.

No I didn't take a £2k car to a main dealer to be fixed - I went there to ask their to ask their expertise - the parts I would have got from them as oddly they are cheaper than Eurocarparts et al, even some parts from breakers are more!

 

I've worked in a main dealer and left as my guilt couldn't cope!! There i've said it.

Why charge £x per hour to find the real problem when you can charge £X + £y for the part you fit in that hour and then see if it works.

 

Had a lodger who worked at a indy dealer, AA Registered or whatever. All to ISO9001 whatever the current standard is. Fucking rip off merchant. ABS bulbs out here and there. Pressuring testers to leave advisories off MOTs.

Lodger hated working there as so unethical.

 

I supposed again,in summary I would hate to be Joe Public as they are getting 'done over' the vast majority of the time, from the Kwik fit monkey who puts the tyre tread depth gauge on the 1.6mm block to the aforementioned dodgy dealer to the M**da main dealer who charged for a warranty corrosion check through all the shit in the arches (X ray specs?) and managed to do a brake fluid change with out (re)moving one bleed nipple.

 

Oh and the VW LT46(?) that had been main dealer service from new and they'd even been good enough to rewaxoyl over the fuel filter like it was when it was built....

 

Thank God it was 6 months old and under warranty when it broke but my dear Ma's car. Under 1k since new. Pop. dead.

Main dealer lobbed everything at it. I was on the case as she was driving their courtesy car and didn't like being in charge of someone else's car. Pensioner, old school values, remember them??

Nothing. Couldn't find the problem. No codes. No Idea, Citroen France were sent the ECU, I shit you not - Je suis desolee, We know not the problem.

Long story short , I kicked off - it's petrol. Spark, fuel, compression -PLEASE!!!

Oh. No compression on 3 & 4. Ergo snapped cam. They hadn't taken off a cam cover in 2 months!!! No sensor on far half of cam so they were fucked. No fault code.

Like I said Thank goodness it was under warranty.

 

Not 'slagging off' just the shite I've seen that people have paid through the nose for while the dealer is carrying on with a Arthur Daley / street trader / our ball our game mentality.

 

I'm fully aware it's not a new phenomenom either.

[Rocket88]

Over here 70% of ALL makes that you can possibly buy are owned by ONE outlet, who have an appalling reputation for stiffing people. It's got so bad that any vehicle with a "full service history" by this outlet is automatically worth about 20% less than it should be .....................

[fiatdaft]

There are good and bad in every trade/industry/business.

 

You do know that they don't need to touch bleed nipples when doing a change of brake fluid.

[Spiny Norman]

Over here 70% of ALL makes that you can possibly buy are owned by ONE outlet, who have an appalling reputation for stiffing people. It's got so bad that any vehicle with a "full service history" by this outlet is automatically worth about 20% less than it should be .....................

 

Sounds just like the situation up here with Arnold Shark. Most useless shower of scamming bastards I've ever had the misfortune to deal with.

[fiatdaft]

Now now,were not all the same !

[Guest]

You do know that they don't need to touch bleed nipples when doing a change of brake fluid.

 

Enlighten me. I know you can suck oil out the sump via the dipstick tube* - works as no vacuum created as draws in air through breathers etc - brakes though?

How can they suck brake fluid from the extremities of the farthest caliper without undoing a bleed nipple and releasing the vacuum for a start?

Sorry don't mean to sound flippant just curious

 

* Didn't a Ford diesel service bulletin advise against this as it left crap in the sump that blocked the turbo oil feed?

[John F]

Er... hasn't this thread gone a bit off-piste? Surely it's more about the quality* of the vehicles themselves than whether x, y or z can fix them properly.

[PhilA]

the vehicles that get the good rep here are the ones that can be driven indefinitely with zero maintenance.

 

Only until recently have things turned up that are more "European" again- i.e. stuff that actually requires its maintenance schedule adhered to.

 

That's a main reason my Renault ended up at the side of the road (upholding the bad reputation they have) because "oh, it has a timing belt?" comes into play.

 

It's built simple, tough, it breaks in a fashion that doesn't render it a complete writeoff- if replacing the part that broke (timing chain, for instance) and making it run again fixes it then shazam, you're in business. A bit of rust? Who cares. Squeaks and rattles? It's old. Starts, drives, stops? That's important.

 

Older cars are kept longer here due to the lax testing, and that drives the price of cars up. Even an elderly civic will fetch several times above scrap value if it starts, stops, steers and the aircon works down here.

 

Something the style and glam monkeys seem to hate, and Mr MoT Man likes to find reason (partly from what's written above) to fail it on.

[gtd2000]

I'm pretty sure the summit has not been reached at all - in my estimation cars are still improving drastically.

 

It's true that we have far higher expectations of cars these days and they perform much more complicated tasks and have far higher levels of standard equipment.

 

From my early years I thought all of the Fords that my father owned were simply shit up until he finally bought a Nissan in 1983 and we discovered reliability.

 

From my own experience, the Asian brands just keep getting better as far as specifications & quality are concerned.

[Lacquer Peel]

I think car design did peak in the 1990s, as far as longevity, reliability and ease of maintenance goes. I can't imagine working on a DSG CRD iPod Bluetooth WTFmotion on my drive, or one of these massively complicated modern cars lasting long enough to get into my skinflint mitts.

 

I'm currently travelling about 2000 miles a month in a 16 year old Peugeot 405 TD I bought nearly a year ago for £500.

It's comfortable, quick enough for me, more surefooted to drive than anything else I've driven, including new stuff, has an engine unencumbered with electronic controls which manages up to 55MPG on diesel and runs happily on used vegetable oil.

 

I'm sure a new 508 is a lot smoother, quieter, better equipped and quicker but at least I can see out of the 405.

 

Also, new cars are fucking ugly.

[John F]

I'm sure a new 508 is a lot smoother, quieter, better equipped and quicker but at least I can see out of the 405.

 

 

Also, new cars are fucking ugly.

 

+1, at least as far as mong boxes are concerned.

[skattrd]

As mentioned previously I agree that OBD code readers or other diagnostic tools will be an essential part of future shiters tool kit.

 

I still believe that electronic failures will lead to a lot of more recent cars being scrapped even if they don't rust and their engines/gearboxes explode.

[Cavcraft]

We've been here before but ref modern cars are ugly, you wouldn't prize me out of an Alfa 159 or Jag XF amongst others.

[HillmanImp]

I still believe that electronic failures will lead to a lot of more recent cars being scrapped even if they don't rust and their engines/gearboxes explode.

 

TBH, as the technology progresses then the electronics will get better and more reliable as the combustion engine has over the years. Obviously they will keep adding on more things to comply with revised efficiency regulations and to power the 3d hologram multiplex cinema system etc which will be standard in all cars in the world of tomorrow. These new electronic gizmos will inevitably break and render the car useless creating another debate about modern cars on the çš„è¡£æœÂ的款张forum (I am assuming the chinese have taken over by then).

[Guest]

çš„è¡£æœÂ的款å¼Â*

 

* Lustyolmoka

[John F]

çš„è¡£æœÂ的款å¼Â*

 

* Lustyolmoka

 

 

According to Google Translate it says "clothes style"...

[Justin Case]

Don't confuse 'modern' with 'new', even though there is little difference in practice. I still think of my five-year+-old car as modern. It is fairly ordinary, but it still has ABS, stability control, crumple zones, six airbags and seat-belt pretensioners (five three-point belts), so it should be fairly safe in an accident. It will cruise effortlessly at 85mph, has a few useful gimmicks such as cruise control, and in two years has only needed routine servicing and a battery. I think it is more a plateau than a summit that has been reached, the only differences with the new one is that it is a bit more pedestrian-friendly if one is careless or stupid enough to walk out in front of it, and you can hook up your smartphone Ipod etc to it, as if that matters.

 

Oh sorry there is one more difference. Mine cost £8k a couple of years ago as opposed to £20k for a new one, and that is the one fact that completely blows a hole in the case for a brand new car. It even weakens the case for an old shitter, when you look at what you can get for your money.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I think car design did peak in the 1990s, as far as longevity, reliability and ease of maintenance goes. I can't imagine working on a DSG CRD iPod Bluetooth WTFmotion on my drive, or one of these massively complicated modern cars lasting long enough to get into my skinflint mitts.

 

I'm currently travelling about 2000 miles a month in a 16 year old Peugeot 405 TD I bought nearly a year ago for £500.

It's comfortable, quick enough for me, more surefooted to drive than anything else I've driven, including new stuff, has an engine unencumbered with electronic controls which manages up to 55MPG on diesel and runs happily on used vegetable oil.

 

I'm sure a new 508 is a lot smoother, quieter, better equipped and quicker but at least I can see out of the 405.

 

Also, new cars are fucking ugly.

 

That's pretty much it. If you could have a brand new 405 1.9 SRi, would you really want a 508? The same goes for the Mark 3 Chevalier, E34 5 Series, Carina E etc, cars that were good in the day and where a mint example would still be fine now.

[Spiny Norman]

I still think of my five-year+-old car as modern. It is fairly ordinary, but it still has ABS, stability control, crumple zones, six airbags and seat-belt pretensioners (five three-point belts), so it should be fairly safe in an accident. It will cruise effortlessly at 85mph, has a few useful gimmicks such as cruise control....

But you'll get all of that in most of the more upmarket cars from the 90s. My old Merc has all that and more, as would a whole host of BMWs, Volvos, Audis, Saabs etc.

 

It even weakens the case for an old shitter, when you look at what you can get for your money.

 

My old Merc cost me £900, and there are thousands of cars just like it out there at similar (or less) money, and with respect, your £8k 'bargain' will carry on depreciating till it's worth a few hundred quid.

 

I really can't see most of today's cars still being on the road in 20 years time and it's not just about the throw away society we live in, but the demise of proper mechanics who could fix things rather than bolt a new one on, and the increase in largely useless electronics, without which the cars won't function.

[Guest]

Or just don't buy one!

 

Bit late for that. Last new car I'm buying, anyway.

 

Can't be arsed with finance and all of the modern cars in my price range are crap and uninteresting. It's been emotional, has new car ownership - it makes no sense to me anyway. I get sick of the teeth sucking when I tell 'trade folk' the mileage on it. Well, it's a car, not a fucking driveway ornament. I work all over the place, I have friends all over the country. I'm travelling across France and Belgium in it.

 

I wouldn't buy a car off Arnold C***rk either. They have an appalling reputation for customer service. Seen far too many friends and family shafted by their 'customer care' and 'repair' teams. Most of my mates in Scotland wouldn't touch them either.

 

Shame, really. The Astra actually looks alright, but the only Vauxhall place near me are Arnold C***rk and I wouldn't give them a cup of cold piss, let alone enough money to buy a new car.

[eddyramrod]

As if further proof were needed... well it is, but I seem to have a hitch with my photo-sharing site at the moment so words will have to do!

I was at Andreas's garage this morning, and someone had brought in a Renault Scenic, not more than a couple of years old. It has suffered a slight bump at the front, enough to make it look scuffed. Bits of plastic were broken or mis-shaped. So Andreas and his YTS boy, Panicos, fought with the bumper for the morning, to get it off the car. When it came it included the grille, foglights and badge plinth that sits ahead of the bonnet on these. Yes, more or less all that in one piece. The main grille is removable, as are the two silver plastic hoops either side. At least they are eventually! Andreas then went to the Renault dealer for the replacement parts, which came in at over 400 euros. He said if he had to replace the bumper itself, that would be the wrong side of 1000. Plus his time, plus he has to paint it. Even without replacing the bumper, his bill is going to be four figures, or getting on that way. This is what will kill these cars. The damage was slight. On a BMC Mini you'd undo a dozen Phillips screws and the grille would be in your hands; four bolts would see the bumper off too. Either piece, you could pick up in one hand and cary about. If you were a skilled-enough panelbeater you could very likely straighten them out. Off the car, fixed and back on in a couple of hours. On the Scenic, that's half a day for two men just to get the bumper off, and the same to put it back. Now add in the painting (and prep), dismantling and reassembly of the bumper, and the cost of the hefty plastic mouldings involved. When a Scenic gets to five years old, people won't bother with this stuff. They'll either drive it around looking shabby or they will buy used parts, if they can. Supplies of those won't last long. Then what? The electronics will want their turn. More hugely expensive plastic, only available from the dealer.

21st century cars will be beyond economic repair much sooner than their ancestors.

I like the 70s myself, cars were simple enough to fix, but the luxury models were getting plush, and had enough power. Perfect, as far as I can tell.

[CreepingJesus]

I wouldn't buy a car off Arnold C***rk either. They have an appalling reputation for customer service. Seen far too many friends and family shafted by their 'customer care' and 'repair' teams. Most of my mates in Scotland wouldn't touch them either.

 

I wouldn't disagree; however...

Is the corporate-ness of the auto trade these days not maybe part of the problem? I worked for the guy, when his company was on the cusp of going into aquisition hyperdrive; it was always a numbers game to him, but surrounding himself with some very clever business brains, establishing his finance and transportation divisions etc., were only ever means to the end of making the game much bigger.

He recently aquired an independant garage I used to work for, whose dealer principal was listened to, within the manufacturer's heirarchy. What chance that happens from now on? We know well, how good the corporate world is at not biting the hand that feeds it; so I'd imagine there's somewhere between fuck all and no chance of that. The manufacturer isn't going to hear negative opinions at conferences, so long as the DP's get to present good throughput to the board. Trebles all round!

It seems to me that corporate dealer chains are far less interested in selling a quality product to a customer, who'll come back thro' choice; than selling disposable fodder to marks who'll come back because every dealer in their area is corporate, and they don't percieve they have a lot of choice.

On the whole, corporations are built on some sort of numbers game; independants try to work on long term relationships and quality of service. When the cars being sold fall into the former camp, it's quite obvious whose advantage it is.

Maybe I'm just being really cynical here? I could be wrong!

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I wouldn't buy a car off Arnold C***rk either. They have an appalling reputation for customer service. Seen far too many friends and family shafted by their 'customer care' and 'repair' teams. Most of my mates in Scotland wouldn't touch them either.

 

I wouldn't disagree; however...

Is the corporate-ness of the auto trade these days not maybe part of the problem? I worked for the guy, when his company was on the cusp of going into aquisition hyperdrive; it was always a numbers game to him, but surrounding himself with some very clever business brains, establishing his finance and transportation divisions etc., were only ever means to the end of making the game much bigger.

He recently aquired an independant garage I used to work for, whose dealer principal was listened to, within the manufacturer's heirarchy. What chance that happens from now on? We know well, how good the corporate world is at not biting the hand that feeds it; so I'd imagine there's somewhere between fuck all and no chance of that. The manufacturer isn't going to hear negative opinions at conferences, so long as the DP's get to present good throughput to the board. Trebles all round!

It seems to me that corporate dealer chains are far less interested in selling a quality product to a customer, who'll come back thro' choice; than selling disposable fodder to marks who'll come back because every dealer in their area is corporate, and they don't percieve they have a lot of choice.

On the whole, corporations are built on some sort of numbers game; independants try to work on long term relationships and quality of service. When the cars being sold fall into the former camp, it's quite obvious whose advantage it is.

Maybe I'm just being really cynical here? I could be wrong!

 

That'll be all dealer groups then - Sytners, Pendragon (Stratstone, Evans Halshaw etc etc) and perhaps to a lesser extent, Jardines. Selling cars to them is like Next selling a pair of jeans. They won't remember you from Adam in 4 months. There are some independent dealers around still - North Oxford garage (a huuge BMW place) and Misterton Garage, a tiny little Ford dealer in Zummerzet that was there 30-40 years ago. Both are family run and all the better for it.

[willswitchengage]

+1 on the OMG CORPORATIONS theory, although as an ex yoof-apprenticy type at a private village garage I can profess that our extortionate hourly rates only just about covered the overheads (this wasn't helped by the place's strategic location next to a river that flooded fifteen times a year).

 

I'd go for car proliferation as another reason for the perceived diminishing quality - three times as many people drive now as in the 60s. Servicing has always been expensive and a "skill" if you opt to do it yourself - and many people these days seem to think the car is some self-maintaining asset that will run forever providing it's topped up with fuel. Oh, and nobody seems to fundamentally drive with care anymore.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

many people these days seem to think the car is some self-maintaining asset that will run forever providing it's topped up with fuel.

 

Eh? I though the MOT was a service?

[HillmanImp]

many people these days seem to think the car is some self-maintaining asset that will run forever providing it's topped up with fuel.

 

Eh? I though the MOT was a service?

 

Ha! Ha!

 

So many people I know seem to think that they give the car a full service at the MOT.

 

'The oil light is flashing on the car sometimes'

 

'You need to put more oil in it, when was it last serviced'

 

'Oh, it was done last year at the MOT, the next ones in a weeks time they will pick it up then'

 

[willswitchengage]

For anybody who missed it before I think that ^ is an appropriate prompt for a repost of this

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

You do know that they don't need to touch bleed nipples when doing a change of brake fluid.

 

Enlighten me. I know you can suck oil out the sump via the dipstick tube* - works as no vacuum created as draws in air through breathers etc - brakes though?

How can they suck brake fluid from the extremities of the farthest caliper without undoing a bleed nipple and releasing the vacuum for a start?

Sorry don't mean to sound flippant just curious

 

You can't. Scummy dealers might replace what's in the reservoir, but to do the job properly you need to open the nipples on all four wheels and suck the old shit out. Leaving the old stuff festering in the calipers and hoses is is for bodgers.

[fiatdaft]

Or you can spend fortunes on the proper bosch machines and do it correctly as some newer german stuff cannot be bled at the nipples.