Bus Shite

[busmansholiday]

Don't forget that "Tracky" (aka Yorkshire Traction) bought the only low hight Metrobuses because of the low bridges around here. 

[Six-cylinder]

1 hour ago, quicksilver said:

I'm sure that's featured here before. If so, it's an early 60s Ford Duple Yeoman that's been knocking around north Bucks as a caravan for years. Extremely rare now and it must be one of only a handful of roadworthy examples.

That looks like the type, but I never saw the front.

[Yoss]

On 9/21/2020 at 10:16 PM, Inspector Morose said:

Hang on. T1131? That was prototype No.5 (originally BCK706R)!

I found the bugger. It was exactly where I thought it would be when I was looking for it the other day, except it wasn't there then! 

It has very small Solent Blue Line stickers either side of the Leyland badge. Anyway, more Southampton bus wars to follow, as requested. 

[ETCHY]

29 minutes ago, Yoss said:

I found the bugger. It was exactly where I thought it would be when I was looking for it the other day, except it wasn't there then! 

It has very small Solent Blue Line stickers either side of the Leyland badge. Anyway, more Southampton bus wars to follow, as requested. 

Those look very similar to Fishwicks of Leylands colours.

[Yoss]

Yes, it is. The bus was owned by Ensigns at the time, I think they were just loaning it out before they sold it back to London Buses. 

[ETCHY]

53 minutes ago, Yoss said:

Yes, it is. The bus was owned by Ensigns at the time, I think they were just loaning it out before they sold it back to London Buses. 

Cool. I've ridden on many a Fishwicks (probably been on that one).

They always had Leyland's back in the day as they were based in the same town.

Another independent that's now sadly gone.

 

[Yoss]

I never managed a ride on the Titan, it only seemed to be around for a couple of weeks. We are a long way from Leyland but Southampton City Transport was a very keen Leyland operator. It's why all our Routemasters had Leyland engines and before they arrived the fleet was about 98% Atlantean. 

[Yoss]

On 9/22/2020 at 8:49 PM, Inspector Morose said:

The prototypes seemed to have a charmed life with 2 still in existence, BCK being one of them. 

I'd love a look at the Southampton wars as that was one area that I didn't go and photograph during the 'fun' times - I concentrated on South Yorkshire with the Northern Bus REs!

Due to popular demand (one person mentioned it) here's some southampton bus wars stuff. 

Before it all kicked off Southampton looked like this. 

Or this if they had received the new livery. 

There were three Olympians and one Dominator all with East Lancs bodywork on evaluation simply because they couldn't buy Atlanteans any more, if they could they would have carried on doing so. 

The outer suburban stuff was in the hands of Hampshire Bus who had just been split from Hants and Dorset (the other half becoming Wilts and Dorset but they play no part in this story). The one exception was the route 18 which for some historic reasons I don't recall was run by Hampshire Bus between the city and Thornhill. These looked like this. 

So the Routemasters weren't the first interlopers from London in the city. Now CityBus had their own route to Thornhill but it went a different way and the two ran for decades alongside with no problems. 

So when we mention Southampton bus wars this is what most people think of. 

But concurrent with all this, Hampshire Bus, now owned by Stagecoach, were having their own ideas. Stagecoach were obviously masters of going in and undercutting and driving the opposition out of business. So when this lot turned up at Barton Park, their Eastleigh depot, we thought for a little while that we were going to have a full Glasgow style RM on RM competition. 

But it never happened. The buses were painted at Barton Park but then disappeared off elsewhere in to the Stagecoach fleet. 

 

But what did happen we never saw coming. So what is that thing? 

 

Find out in the next post... 

[Yoss]

It's an ex South Yorkshire Volvo Ailsa of course! Why pick these? No one will ever know. Surely VRs would make more sense as Hampshire bus staff would be more familiar with them. 

CityBus responded with the route 23 so they were fighting Blue Line on one front and Hampshire Bus on the other, all three companies employing conductors to try and get an edge. 

Here's RM 1543 in the same spot, note matching Chevette. 

And also bonus Escort Huntsman, a real rarity even then. 

A few more of the Volvos:

This one never quite got finished. In the company of the mobile shop, flat screen LH that drove out and parked here every day. 

And here's a line of the Ailsas with a VW camper with a convertible Olympian roof added. Seems like a good idea, gives you a ready made awning when you get to the campsite. Wilts and Dorset had several of these convertible Olympians for the Bournemouth to Swanage route. 

This whole operation was quite short lived, as was the CityBus 23, for reasons that will become apparent soon as I haven't even got to Blue Line yet. 

[Yoss]

Here's another long forgotten oddity. A Mayburys Coaches DMS. 

Which shared the bus station with these. 

Not quite identical but certainly similar enough to make you look twice. Mayburys had their own livery (I pinched this pic off the Internet, all others are my own) but even this looked like they ran out of paint before they got to top deck. 

I'm not quite sure what the deal was here. They ran from Southampton to Lymington but I can't remember if it was in competition or just sub contracted from Hampshire Bus who also ran on the same route. Searching the Internet (briefly) leaves me none the wiser. They had some Nationals too. They went largely ignored at the time, there was so much other stuff going on and I never went on them but I was going to work on Hampshire Bus DMSs at the time so they weren't really a novelty. Imagine a DMS on a nice semi rural route like that now, I feel I should have paid them more attention. 

 

 

Edit:

Just noticed these DMSs are the same age as the South Yorkshire Ailsas. Those Ailsas still look modern now, the DMS doesn't. 

[Inspector Morose]

Ah, the Hampshire Bus Ailsas. I’ve a vague recollection that the VOSA man down there didn’t like them and started prohibiting them on insufficient gangway width by the centre doors, even though South Yorkshire had been running them for over 10 years by then. They looked (and still,do) superb and modern but their tubular frames rotted quicker than a Matra in a saltbath. 

[quicksilver]

Recent discussion of Routemasters losing their registrations reminded me of a local firm called VL Test Systems, who I had a vague recollection used some ex-RM plates. I was right as one of them turned up today, so here's RM202, the RM now standing for Renault Midlum.

The real RM202 became GAS 341 with London Central in 2002 and is taxed so it's still out there somewhere.

[willswitchengage]

23 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Recent discussion of Routemasters losing their registrations reminded me of a local firm called VL Test Systems, who I had a vague recollection used some ex-RM plates. I was right as one of them turned up today, so here's a Renault Midlum masquerading as RM202.

The real RM202 became GAS 341 with London Central in 2002 and is taxed so it's still out there somewhere.

Incidentally the fancy new (and very good) B5LH things in London all use the 4-pot Midlum engine. They sound good and work flawlessly as far as I can tell as a passenger.

[Eyersey1234]

1 hour ago, quicksilver said:

Recent discussion of Routemasters losing their registrations reminded me of a local firm called VL Test Systems, who I had a vague recollection used some ex-RM plates. I was right as one of them turned up today, so here's a Renault Midlum masquerading as RM202.

The real RM202 became GAS 341 with London Central in 2002 and is taxed so it's still out there somewhere.

I wonder if the RMs lost their plates because the plates were worth more than the bus. Southern Vectis reregistered some Lodekkas in about 2002 before sale for that reason, so MDL 952/3/5 got BAS registrations

[busmansholiday]

On 9/27/2020 at 2:52 PM, Yoss said:

It's an ex South Yorkshire Volvo Ailsa of course! Why pick these? No one will ever know.

They were available and cheap.

Back then the South Yorkshire PTE (which had been formed from Sheffield, Doncaster and Rotherham Corporation Transport Departments, plus subsequently many independent operators), was replacing many time expired vehicles. They had fallen into hot water with the purchase of four Metropolitan deckers (MCW bodied Scanias) a few years earlier because they weren't British* and shipped them out to Donny to avoid the Sheffield based press. With the Ailsas, and the fact they were built in Scotland, they had less problems. They actually wanted Fleetlines, but strikes at BL and shite quality persuaded them to buy Alexander bodied Ailsas after using the demo. Except Alexander couldn't deliver in time and as Sheffield had used a McArdle bodied Atlantean demo the dye was set. The first one, 369, was built by VanHool  then shipped to Ireland to show them what to do.

"Ailsa, the £70000 Super Bus" or something similar was the headline on the Sheffield Star when the first arrived IIRC.

Except the Unions refused to work them one man in Sheffield, Rotherham's Unions wouldn't touch them with a barge pole and Donny were basically told if they wanted any new buses every again it was these and they WOULD work them one man.

There were a fair few problems, noise, alternators driven off the output of the gearbox, front axle weights and wear (surprise surprise, the Wulfronian suffered that), corrosion around the rear wheel arches and sub frames,and things weren't good in the body department in general.

A Mk II (number 430) was built, but most rumours say that was because it fell off the crane at the docks. Ultimately, as only Donny would work them one man, and that was obviously not going to last, they sold them off when sufficient new vehicles, Dennis Dominators and Atlanteans were available.

[Inspector Morose]

Ailsas were an acquired taste all right. We ran an ex WMPTE example and as I was the one who bought it (we had a capacity issue on one route and where else could you find a 79 seater cheap?) I was the one who had to look after it. 
It was like a deltic - great at what they do but the mk1s did demand constant attention. King pins? They need changing every year. Front brakes would be down to the rivets after about 6 weeks while the rears you had to strip down at MoT time to make sure the anchor pins didn’t seize. While we’re at the rear, that axle, Jesus it was a chronically bad piece of kit (Hamworthy, I’m looking at you here) wear was inevitable and when you could turn the prop a third of the way round without anything happening you knew it was time for replacement. Oh, and dont get me started on non-handed hub nuts. Yes the nearside was designed to unscrew itself if the underspecced locking device failed leading to the rear hub, drum and two large tyres making a bid for freedom out the side of the bus in one lump.

There were some very good design features though. The radiator was able to swing out of the way to get at the front of the engine (to get to the power steering pump and the sort). The engine itself was mounted on angled brackets so engine changes were a piece of piss as the lot would slide along the chassis rails once disconnected.  The bits that did fail were designed to be easily changed as well - the flywheel was one of the easiest I had to change. 

Drivers were told not to idle in gear, not to save the (another easily changed unit) fluid flywheel or the gearbox but as the alternator was driven from the input shaft to the remote mounted gearbox, when a gear is selected it stopped charging! The characteristic whistle of the Mk1 was from the use of a toothed belt to drive the alternator and this was later changed to a poly V. You still had to remove a propshaft in the event of belt failure though. I learned quickly to add a few more spare belts and securely attach them to the grease shield so changing a belt was a simple procedure.

The Mk2 was a vast improvement with many of the issues that the earlier ones were plagued with had been resolved with the Mk3 being the bus it should have been in the first place and a real alternative to the Olympian with it being miles ahead of the the older generation stuff that was still being produced by the big boys.

[Yoss]

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

 You still had to remove a propshaft in the event of belt failure though. I learned quickly to add a few more spare belts and securely attach them to the grease shield so changing a belt was a simple procedure.

 

That's an old Routemaster trick. The hydraulic brake pump and air compressor are belt driven from a pulley where the carden shaft enters the front of the gearbox. I had a couple of spare belts safely cable tied to bits of the underframe of mine. 

[jon.k]

That's interesting stuff above, Busman and Inspector, thank you for the insights.

[Rover414]

This joined my small set of buses last week. New to Merseybus, later with Arriva Merseyside, South Gloucestershire Bus & Coach and lastly Stagecoach West. Picked it up from Stroud and drove it back to Liverpool, never missed a beat.

[Zelandeth]

Still remember being staggered that Red Rose were still running an Ailsa on stage service as late as 2010/1 here!  I thought it was just an Olympian when it pulled up (it was dark!) until we pulled away from the stop and the noise came from the wrong place.  Still wish I'd grabbed a photo.  Was virtually the next week they got a bunch of relatively new Enviros so I never saw it again.

[rml2345]

Glasgow's Ailsas survived into 2006 remarkably, despite being into their 22nd year and still working 18 hour days in some cases. Presumably because they just kept going.

 

[Inspector Morose]

On 9/28/2020 at 7:43 PM, busmansholiday said:

A Mk II (number 430) was built, but most rumours say that was because it fell off the crane at the docks.

And here it is in its later guise as a promotional bus. Indeed it was badly damaged on delivery and was 'rebuilt' as the first Mk2. It was probably a new build as there were quite a few structural differences between this and the others.

[busmansholiday]

23 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

And here it is in its later guise as a promotional bus. Indeed it was badly damaged on delivery and was 'rebuilt' as the first Mk2. It was probably a new build as there were quite a few structural differences between this and the others.

And here she is brand new, on a tour of Lancashire I organised for the local enthusiasts society in1978.

Amusingly, when we posed her outside Leyland's works entrance, the security guard wandered over, took a look and said "lots of people bring their Leyland buses here to take pictures of where they were made".

[Yoss]

More bus wars (you thought that was it? Oh god no, you've opened a right old can of worms). 

As I said the Ailsas were short lived. I didn't know about the VOSA disapproval as @Inspector Morose alludes to. It could have been that but something else happened which I believe would have hastened their demise anyway. Stagecoach sold their Southampton (which included Eastleigh) operations to Blue Line. This was the point we realised they were here to stay and not one of those flash in the pan operations that were so common at the time. They were of course backed by Southern Vectis so had money if they needed it. But in a shrewd move by Stagecoach the sale didn't include the bus station or the Grosvenor Square garage which also had the coach station attached. These were sold off and turned in to a pointless shopping centre and some office buildings. It was said at the time, though I have no idea if it was true, that Stagecoach got more for those two sites than they paid for the whole of Hampshire Bus. Asset stripping at its finest.

So here's a few pics from Grosvenor Square in the short space of time that Blue Line were allowed to use it. 

Very colourful collection of VRs. 

Ex LT, ex Hants & Sussex Merlin or Swift. More on this later. 

Dead Ailsa. The working ones had already left. 

Three of what we called the Mellys because of their MEL registrations. Hampshire Bus bought four of them and I think might have been they only buses they bought new in between the Hants & Dorset and Solent Blue Line eras. They had a long life in the Southampton area and carried at least two Hampshire Bus and two Blue Line liveries. 

This is what replaced the Ailsas. A load of high bridge VRs from Carlisle Bus. 

I don't know if they came as part of the deal with Hampshire Bus or were purchased separately but as Carlisle Bus was a Stagecoach company by then I'm guessing they were thrown in for free to get rid of the Ailsas. They were certainly pushed into service quickly without being painted which led to scenes like this. 

Yes, those are two competing companies. 

This one is giving the people of Southampton a phone number for Carlisle travel info. 

 

And this, I assume is advertising a Carlisle nightclub. 

But they were eventually painted at Barton Park. 

And they were still going through those Routemasters. 

I only include this one as it's so unusual to see a Stagecoach RM looking mint. They seem to look very shabby very quickly. 

Meanwhile, over the road, Hants & Sussex had set up local services in Eastleigh but these were soon taken over by Blue Line. As can be seen this one has a Blue Line sticker on the front. 

I don't think they lasted long after the take over, and why would you run these when you could have  the lovely* Iveco Daily you can see behind?

But for a while you could ride round Southampton on ex LT Routemasters, Merlins and DMSs at the same time. 

 

Southampton bus station just after closure. 

And a few weeks later. 

And a bonus shot for the VR lickers. 

[busmansholiday]

Some superb shots there Yoss. We had bus wars up here as well. Former Portsmouth Atlanteans in Barnsley whilst any old spare National in Sheffield with a variety of operators. Many failed, the survivors are now called Stagecoach Yorkshire.

 

[busmansholiday]

1 hour ago, Yoss said:

Merlin or Swift. 

General thought was Merlins had 691 engines, Swifts 505s. All the non London ones had 505s, even Red Rovers two with manuel boxes, except of course Sheffield. All three batches were fitted with the 691 engine, a commomn discussion in the early 70's locally was why weren't they called Merlins?

[Yoss]

Yeah, I never got to grips with the whole Swift - Merlin thing. 

[rml2345]

Merlin seems to have been an LT thing, applied exclusively to the 36ft bus Swifts. Weidly the coach Swifts that Country had weren't referred to as Merlins.

That's LT for you. 

[Zelandeth]

Still have yet to ever set foot on a VR.  Really need to fix that someday...

They were long gone from my area by the time I was ever in town more than once or twice a year.

[busmansholiday]

2 hours ago, rml2345 said:

Weidly the coach Swifts that Country had weren't referred to as Merlins.

Presume you mean the Alexander bodied ones ordered by South Wales Transport but diverted to LCBS as class SMA, 505 engines in them.