My WIP book about Red Robbo, and Longbridge stuff.

[motorpunk]

3 hours ago, MrBig said:

I assume we have to buy the book to find out why?

I have to write the book first… am still researching!

[New POD]

On 15/12/2024 at 06:25, New POD said:

We had a lecturer on our degree course at Coventry Polytechnic who had been in management at Longbridge and lectured on industrial relations and factory management 

Said that you couldn't believe the papers. 

If a supplier had let them down or there was a problem back up the chain and they couldn't build anything in a particular area, they'd sack the union convenor on a trumped up charge, everyone in that area would go on strike and they wouldn't have to pay them.  Saving lots of money. And once they had fixed the issue or got the parts they'd reinstate to convenor and everyone would come back to work, and get weekend overtime at a premium to make up the production lost. 

At any one time, this could be going on all over the site in different sub assembly departments.  (13 strikes in one day would be the newspaper headline) 

 

One of my old colleagues at the Lycas Industries research centre in Shirley (dog kennel Lane) was ex Austin.  He'd spent 15 years in the Engine Development department in the 70s and 80s. 

He said the collusion with car magazines on new product launch was farcical. 

So they'd build 2 engines and the car mag would come and take a car with the performance version, and had strict instructions to do all the top speed testing and acceleration tests before bringing it back. The next day they'd take the same* car out and do fuel consumption tests. 

He'd be part of the night shift swapping the engines. 

[motorpunk]

3 hours ago, New POD said:

collusion with car magazines

Funny stuff. But actually very common and even to this day similar shenanigans like this happen.

I’ve had a nice phone call with the man who I think (although he denies it), coined Red Robbo’s nickname. Interesting people! 
 

Cover art will get done in January. Similar style to the last book.

[motorpunk]

I’ve found the addresses where Red Robbo was born, and the house he lived in when he worked at Longbridge and in later life. Really very modest little homes. The thing that struck me first is that he could not have been doing this for financial gain. The later strikes and disputes were (mostly) belligerent and ultimately unhelpful to his cause,  but earlier stuff clearly had some merit. I keep coming back to the really petty things they did; sabotaging clocking in machines then walking out because they didn’t work, and in one fairly large-scale action the painters walked out when management refused to buy them all Marks & Spencers underwear. 

[mat777]

This is all sounding depressingly similar to the plot of I'm All Right Jack, which as far as I'm aware was supposed to be satire and not a documentary....

[warren t claim]

 

Have you read my thread here from 13 years ago?

[motorpunk]

19 hours ago, warren t claim said:

 

Have you read my thread here from 13 years ago?

I have and see that I commented a couple of years ago to say I’d love to write a book someday… thanks for the reminder.

[lesapandre]

Was not a lot of the industrial strife caused by the way car workers were paid? It wasn't a flat wage but some kind of 'piece work' - in that when demand was high the factories ran with a full complement of staff - but when demand slackened people were laid-off. 

1950's car output was very up and down partly caused by car tax (ie sales tax - which was very high) being put up and then reduced - leading to a bit of a boom and bust.

So if workers were laid off arbiterily by 'the bosses' you can see why there was no love lost.

The other problem for BMC/BL is that so much of the product was subcontracted out to suppliers right across the Midlands - so any stoppage at say Rubery Owen meant that Mini subframes they were making to go to Longbridge dried up. 

The whole thing was a total mess. 

There was also to many different models coming out of BMC/BMH/BL - with too many different component again adding to the chaos.

[Timewaster]

On 26/12/2024 at 10:33, motorpunk said:

painters walked out when management refused to buy them all Marks & Spencers underwear. 

This sounds utterly ridiculous but if there is a chance of explosion or burns then 100% cotton clothing under their overalls saves the victim having bits of melted polyester surgically removed from their bollocks.

Not sure how it applies to painters in a 70s car factory, or why it has to be a particular brand though.

[motorpunk]

3 hours ago, Timewaster said:

This sounds utterly ridiculous but if there is a chance of explosion or burns then 100% cotton clothing under their overalls saves the victim having bits of melted polyester surgically removed from their bollocks.

Not sure how it applies to painters in a 70s car factory, or why it has to be a particular brand though.

You’re right. They massively took the piss for PPE allowances but, in fairness, I’m reading about a lot of accidents and at least two fatalities at Longbridge in one year alone.

[lesapandre]

This sounds a great idea for your book. Really fascinating read. Looking forward very much to it.

Getting to people before all this is lost to living memories would be really useful and recording their stories.

Be a good tie-up with Gaydon here to see if they are interested in the oral history bit? 

[Timewaster]

There is an Ex Longbridge Facebook group. They say it is strictly for ex employees only and would appear to be hostile to BL product fanatics.

 

If you contact them they might post a" stories wanted" if you can persuade them you are a bona fide published author and not an Allegro licker.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/12678420357/?ref=share

[motorpunk]

1 hour ago, Timewaster said:

There is an Ex Longbridge Facebook group. They say it is strictly for ex employees only and would appear to be hostile to BL product fanatics.

 

If you contact them they might post a" stories wanted" if you can persuade them you are a bona fide published author and not an Allegro licker.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/12678420357/?ref=share

Thank you. I’m not on Facebook sadly. A pity as that group would be great. 
 

Am chewing though a ton of documents I’ve unearthed…

[lesapandre]

Wow that is a devastating summary. 

That's the note on the visit I presume as part of the executive minutes?

Basically he's saying 'we are too small to survive in the mass market' - and too stuck in our ways as well.

Fascinating. 

[lesapandre]

Another issue for BMC/BL was a lot of their capital equipment was clapped out - and they could not afford to replace it fast enough  - hence work-arounds in the factories which often meant a lot more people working on the line in worse conditions than they should have been.

The material handling at Jaguar for example was awful - with parts stacked all over the place and all kinds of rubbish all over the floor. 

Not for nothing was the main Austin admin block dubbed the Kremlin. 🤣

[lesapandre]

This was the mid-50's slump. Caused by a credit squeeze and arbitrary increasing tax on cars. 

Sums up the stop-start mood. No wonder workers got restless.

[Talbot]

Another killer of BL during the 70s/80s was their appalling quality control, even when procedures did exist.  For a while I used to work with someone who worked at BL in their dark days, he'd worked on most of their lines from Mini through to the Princess.

One day when working on an A-series mini, I was about to look up the head-torquing procedure and values, and he laughed at me, saying "about that tight".

"do pardon what now?!"

"Just do it up as tight as feels right.  That's all we ever used to do on the production line."

Which of course lead to further conversation.  Turns out that torque wrenches just were not used.  Despite there being settings and bolt patterns for most critical engine items (head bolts, bearing caps, flywheel bolts etc.) nothing was ever done up any more accurately than "about that tight"

So, with the engine on a stand I used a 2' powebar and pulled the head nuts "quite hard".  "yep, looks about right to me".

Fucksakes.

What really cemented this as being a typical operating procedure for UK manufacturing was then visiting JCB in the early 2000s.  They had a "leak-free" project running whereby they were attempting to eliminate all leaks from their equipment, be that hydraulic, fuel, water or any other liquid.  Due to that, they had issued their production line staff with modified torque-wrenches to be able to do up the hydraulic couplings to an exact torque.  This, according to management, was their quality control on this particular leak issue.

In fact, all the production line operatives would use said tool, ignore when it went click, and just do the coupling up "tight".  And if a machine leaked when it was fired up for the first time, they'd issue the apprentice with a spanner and send them under the machine to tighten the coupling that was leaking.

... and then talking to a distributor, apparently every time they got a new machine in, they'd do exactly the same again (go round with a spanner and tighten everything properly) as "the production line workers don't know what they're doing".

It was a complete clusterfuck of bullshit, which could have been easily solved with some actual engineering.  Instead, you had management people who hadn't a clue what they were doing, staff on the production line doing the best they could, and customers ending up with an inferior product.

The real reason for the leaks?  The tooling that created the cone seat in the end of the steel hard-piping was regularly blunt, leading to a truly awful sealing surface.  The male component then had a tiny O-ring fitted to it, which was left on during the part's cleaning cycle before assembly, which attacked the O-ring material and degraded it.  Thus you had a degraded O-ring trying to seal on a machined cone that looked like the surface of the moon.  When the dealers got hold of the machine, they would tighten them up so hard that the O-ring was bypassed and you ended up with a metal-on-metal seal, which worked most of the time, but not always.  And of course if you dismantle it, you'll never get it to seal again.

Utter Shit.

[lesapandre]

Minuted at BL board level that there were various 'task-forces' and other initiatives to try to improve build quality.

This is an internal training film:

 

[sierraman]

9 hours ago, Talbot said:

Another killer of BL during the 70s/80s was their appalling quality control, even when procedures did exist.  For a while I used to work with someone who worked at BL in their dark days, he'd worked on most of their lines from Mini through to the Princess.

One day when working on an A-series mini, I was about to look up the head-torquing procedure and values, and he laughed at me, saying "about that tight".

"do pardon what now?!"

"Just do it up as tight as feels right.  That's all we ever used to do on the production line."

Which of course lead to further conversation.  Turns out that torque wrenches just were not used.  Despite there being settings and bolt patterns for most critical engine items (head bolts, bearing caps, flywheel bolts etc.) nothing was ever done up any more accurately than "about that tight"

So, with the engine on a stand I used a 2' powebar and pulled the head nuts "quite hard".  "yep, looks about right to me".

Fucksakes.

What really cemented this as being a typical operating procedure for UK manufacturing was then visiting JCB in the early 2000s.  They had a "leak-free" project running whereby they were attempting to eliminate all leaks from their equipment, be that hydraulic, fuel, water or any other liquid.  Due to that, they had issued their production line staff with modified torque-wrenches to be able to do up the hydraulic couplings to an exact torque.  This, according to management, was their quality control on this particular leak issue.

In fact, all the production line operatives would use said tool, ignore when it went click, and just do the coupling up "tight".  And if a machine leaked when it was fired up for the first time, they'd issue the apprentice with a spanner and send them under the machine to tighten the coupling that was leaking.

... and then talking to a distributor, apparently every time they got a new machine in, they'd do exactly the same again (go round with a spanner and tighten everything properly) as "the production line workers don't know what they're doing".

It was a complete clusterfuck of bullshit, which could have been easily solved with some actual engineering.  Instead, you had management people who hadn't a clue what they were doing, staff on the production line doing the best they could, and customers ending up with an inferior product.

The real reason for the leaks?  The tooling that created the cone seat in the end of the steel hard-piping was regularly blunt, leading to a truly awful sealing surface.  The male component then had a tiny O-ring fitted to it, which was left on during the part's cleaning cycle before assembly, which attacked the O-ring material and degraded it.  Thus you had a degraded O-ring trying to seal on a machined cone that looked like the surface of the moon.  When the dealers got hold of the machine, they would tighten them up so hard that the O-ring was bypassed and you ended up with a metal-on-metal seal, which worked most of the time, but not always.  And of course if you dismantle it, you'll never get it to seal again.

Utter Shit.

Remind me again why we’ve got practically no British owned car firms anymore? 🤣

[Split_Pin]

The notes regarding the equipment is really interesting. I hope you find more people like that who can give an honest appraisal of the situation.

You can see why cars like Datsun became so popular with their attention to detail and subsequent reliability. Even although they've still not quite got the hang of rust prevention, it now takes about 15-18 years for it to become a problem rather then the 5-8 it was in the 70s!

[Dobloseven]

4 hours ago, sierraman said:

Remind me again why we’ve got practically no British owned car firms anymore? 🤣

But the other three of the  "Big Four " were all American owned anyway, and British Leyland member companies are still making cars in the UK,unlike the others.The A Series is reckoned to be one of the more durable engines of its era,and JCB has been pretty successful overall, particularly for the Bamford family,who seem to own a large slice of the nation.Armchair pundits, don't you just love 'em!

 

 

[sierraman]

1 hour ago, Dobloseven said:

But the other three of the  "Big Four " were all American owned anyway, and British Leyland member companies are still making cars in the UK,unlike the others.The A Series is reckoned to be one of the more durable engines of its era,and JCB has been pretty successful overall, particularly for the Bamford family,who seem to own a large slice of the nation.Armchair pundits, don't you just love 'em!

 

 

Jaguar, Austin, Morris, Rover, MG, Hillman, Standard, Triumph, Armstrong Siddeley, Humber, Lea Francis… I could go on for hours. All either defunct or bought out and brought under foreign ownership to avoid them going bust…

Also in the real world the A series that you might have had in your Metro in 1988 is totally irrelevant. 

[Dobloseven]

50 minutes ago, sierraman said:

Jaguar, Austin, Morris, Rover, MG, Hillman, Standard, Triumph, Armstrong Siddeley, Humber, Lea Francis… I could go on for hours. All either defunct or bought out and brought under foreign ownership to avoid them going bust…

Also in the real world the A series that you might have had in your Metro in 1988 is totally irrelevant. 

But the erstwhile Talbot made specific reference to A Series engine assembly and  hydraulic assembly issues at JCB,so actually totally relevant.Regarding manufacturers disappearing,look at all the French,German,Italian,American,Japanese etc.etc.companies that have disappeared.Did they have quality control issues?

[Scruffy Bodger]

17 hours ago, Talbot said:

Another killer of BL during the 70s/80s was their appalling quality control, even when procedures did exist.  For a while I used to work with someone who worked at BL in their dark days, he'd worked on most of their lines from Mini through to the Princess.

One day when working on an A-series mini, I was about to look up the head-torquing procedure and values, and he laughed at me, saying "about that tight".

"do pardon what now?!"

"Just do it up as tight as feels right.  That's all we ever used to do on the production line."

Which of course lead to further conversation.  Turns out that torque wrenches just were not used.  Despite there being settings and bolt patterns for most critical engine items (head bolts, bearing caps, flywheel bolts etc.) nothing was ever done up any more accurately than "about that tight"

So, with the engine on a stand I used a 2' powebar and pulled the head nuts "quite hard".  "yep, looks about right to me".

Fucksakes.

 

Do I remember Iian Tyrell on one of his videos saying that when he trained with Rolls Royce they didn't use torque wrenches and were taught to tighten stuff up until it just felt right?

[sierraman]

18 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

But the erstwhile Talbot made specific reference to A Series engine assembly and  hydraulic assembly issues at JCB,so actually totally relevant.Regarding manufacturers disappearing,look at all the French,German,Italian,American,Japanese etc.etc.companies that have disappeared.Did they have quality control issues?

Whether the A series was good or not is irrelevant by this point, the company went bust that speaks for itself. I’m sure Montego wiper motors were superb, the car itself wasn’t and people eventually voted with their feet. 
 

At least the French, German, American and Japan have some semblance of manufacturers still going, what do we have? A couple of foreign owned factories that realistically will be closed within a few years because it can all be done cheaper and better somewhere else. 
 

TL:DR we mucked it up big time in car manufacturing, the proof is in the pudding I’m afraid. 

[artdjones]

14 minutes ago, Scruffy Bodger said:

Do I remember Iian Tyrell on one of his videos saying that when he trained with Rolls Royce they didn't use torque wrenches and were taught to tighten stuff up until it just felt right?

Don't think I'm against the use of torque wrenches on critical stuff, but it's quite easy to feel when a non stretch fitting is tight. You just feel the beginning of stretch and stop there. On a cast iron head on a cast iron  block it would be easy to get very consistent.

I don't think the A Series was noted for head gasket failures?

Of course, aluminium castings or stretch fittings needs a more meticulous approach 😊

[Dobloseven]

21 minutes ago, sierraman said:

Whether the A series was good or not is irrelevant by this point, the company went bust that speaks for itself. I’m sure Montego wiper motors were superb, the car itself wasn’t and people eventually voted with their feet. 
 

At least the French, German, American and Japan have some semblance of manufacturers still going, what do we have? A couple of foreign owned factories that realistically will be closed within a few years because it can all be done cheaper and better somewhere else. 
 

TL:DR we mucked it up big time in car manufacturing, the proof is in the pudding I’m afraid. 

But for now"British Leyland"are still making cars in the UK,in some of the factories that date back to the Red Robbo era!

[MrBig]

On 30/12/2024 at 16:50, Dobloseven said:

But for now"British Leyland"are still making cars in the UK,in some of the factories that date back to the Red Robbo era!

Yep. And if the last brand new “British” car I bought back in 2018 is anything to go by they are still shit. 

[Talbot]

On 30/12/2024 at 16:29, artdjones said:

I don't think the A Series was noted for head gasket failures.

It wasn't.  But if that mentality was prominent within the company, there will have been numerous instances of other more critical bolts being incorrectly torqued, especially when Bob has had a few too many the night before and is feeling shit and can't do things up properly, or when Norman has had a row with his missus and is in a bad mood and hence over-torques everything.

And then when technology moves on to things like the K(ettle) series engines, and everyone is still just doing things up as they see fit, is there any wonder they now have the appalling reputation that they have?

[Talbot]

On 30/12/2024 at 13:33, Dobloseven said:

The A Series is reckoned to be one of the more durable engines of its era,and JCB has been pretty successful overall, particularly for the Bamford family,who seem to own a large slice of the nation.

The A-Series isn't really that durable.  The cars they were fitted to just never really saw any massive mileage.  Also they were crude, which makes them robust.  An A-series will run even when it's utterly buggered, which is what gives them a durable/reliable reputation.  I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that they are an old/low technology engine, which by it's very nature will make it less fragile.

Also, JCB are nowhere.  Not when compared to the likes of Komatsu, Caterpillar, Hitachi and various others.  Also, having seen the company from the inside, I'd never want to buy their product or work for them.