XM Fettling - Bubble Trouble

[Spurious]

27 minutes ago, wesacosa said:

 

Without having the engine out I just cannot see a way out of it, and taking the engine out is way beyond my capabilities/tools/facilities

Back in Ireland, we had a garage that was a bit of a Citroen specialist. When my dad had his BX in getting some spheres done, we spied a XM with it's engine out. Got curious and asked what was being done, incidentally the cam belt. The chap who ran the place said it was quicker to lift the engine out of the XM to do the belt and said he wouldn't change the XUD in situ anymore as it was such a pain to work on if he ran into bother. 

Kinda put us off getting an XM from that point onwards. I know it's probably not what you want to hear but even the pros find it a pig to work on so it's not just you. 

[wesacosa]

1 minute ago, Spurious said:

Back in Ireland, we had a garage that was a bit of a Citroen specialist. When my dad had his BX in getting some spheres done, we spied a XM with it's engine out. Got curious and asked what was being done, incidentally the cam belt. The chap who ran the place said it was quicker to lift the engine out of the XM to do the belt and said he wouldn't change the XUD in situ anymore as it was such a pain to work on if he ran into bother. 

Kinda put us off getting an XM from that point onwards. I know it's probably not what you want to hear but even the pros find it a pig to work on so it's not just you. 

yeah I can see that if you have the facilities.  If you didn't need to do the tensioner it's actually pretty easy (although quite tight).  I felt a little play in my tensioner which is why I went to change it, but by god I wish I hadn't

[Shite Ron]

I fully understand your frustration but hope you find a solution as I have been interested in this from the beginning. It is a great car in a great colour and I think all these problems will be worth it when it is finished and you have the pleasure of driving it. That is what it is really all about. It is always better to walk away and think of a solution than keep digging yourself into a deeper problem (as I have done many times)

We are all behind you willing you on. 

[wesacosa]

thanks I hope so. I have had it since April but not even driven it yet, seems to be one thing after another be it unobtainable parts or terrible jobs.  It was always a risk starting a big job like this on my drive , as its marginal what you can do with the engine in situ, but I thought I would get there in the end but its proving really tough and this weekend in particular very frustrating.  Its nothing that can't be fixed I am sure but if it can be fixed on my drive by me is the question.  packed up for the day now so will sleep on it and see what the coming week brings in terms of inspiration

[dollywobbler]

It will be worth the battle. They're tremendous vehicles. Properly Citroen. As you're finding out...

I know what it's like to feel utterly, utterly defeated. I'm still not sure how I got the serpentine belt back on the Rover 75, which felt like the ultimate insult after a right pig of a job. But I did get there. I'm sure you will too.

[wesacosa]

Just now, dollywobbler said:

It will be worth the battle. They're tremendous vehicles. Properly Citroen. As you're finding out...

I know what it's like to feel utterly, utterly defeated. I'm still not sure how I got the serpentine belt back on the Rover 75, which felt like the ultimate insult after a right pig of a job. But I did get there. I'm sure you will too.

thanks I do hope so. I have wanted one for as long as I can remember , and I think its a good one under it all, but its testing the limits of my spannering abilities for sure, especially on the drive way on axel stands.

[lesapandre]

I've retrieved this off the web. I'm not absolutely sure  this is what you are working on...but I am home waiting for the football so though I would have a look on the francophone web. 

It at least gives a clear diagram I think...

I will translate 3/4 and 4/4

3/4:

1) Remove the front right wheel
 2) Remove the wing flaps
 3) Loosen the tensioner screws 3 & 4.
 4) Tighten  screw 2 to the stop.
 5) Remove the belt 1.
 

Reverse:

 1) Fit the belt 1.
 2) Unscrew the screw 2.
 3) Position the tool for checking the accessories belt 5.

4/4

4) Tension the accessories belt until the value 115 + 10 SEEM is reached. 
 5) Remove the tool for checking the accessories belt 5.
 6) Fully tighten the screws  3 and 4.
 7) Turn the motor two turns in the direction of motor rotation.
Position the accessory belt inspection tool 5.
 9) Check and correct the tension of the accessory belt.
 10) Remove the tool for checking the accessories belt 5.
 Recommendations:
 Always make sure that the plastic cap is in place to ensure sealing
 Observe the manufacturers' assembly procedures as well as the tightening torques indicated.

I'm assuming you are working on 4...

[lesapandre]

If you really really really need unobtanium parts I may be in France over the summer and can speak to my local Citroen specialist who seems to do everything from Cloverleaf to the latests cars with lots of 2CV in the mix...😁

[wesacosa]

thanks @lesapandre.  That is the auxillary belt tensioner ( which will come in very useful when I get to it, as its supposed to be a fiddly set up) but struggle is cambelt tensioner

Plan of action for tomorrow is to see if I can file a couple of flats on the stud and use some mole grips

 

[lesapandre]

Got it...when I have time I will see what else I can see if anything.

[lesapandre]

This may be of use - but you wd need to cut and paste into Google translate...

http://jilks.fr/wordpress/changement-du-ressort-du-galet-tendeur-automatique-sur-2-1-td

😎

[jonathan_dyane]

They are terrible to work on but wonderful to drive.

 I think I once had the same problem you’re having and my solution was to MIG an oversize nut onto the stud then attack it with stilsons.

[wesacosa]

yeah I worry that might be the solution, as I dont weld and the car is immobile

[jonathan_dyane]

Man it’s a shame you’re not closer! Have you got any stilsons? Well worth picking some up if not, they’re 100% better than mole grips at this sort of shit

[wesacosa]

Nenah Cherry and Youssou N'Dour may have been seven seconds away, but I didn't think when I felt a little bit of play in my cambelt tensioner I would be seven hours away from this moment but that's pretty much what happened. First of all the mount bracket was fused to the dowel on the block, then it needed to be twisted and turned and contourted around the tiny gap to come out , as I jacked the engine up and down. Then the epic of trying to get the tensioner out as per the previous post, but the fecker is finally out. I soaked what bit I could get to with plusgas last night and tried every size of mole grip I had but it was just stripping the threads. I do have some stilsons @jonathan_dyane but they a bit big for the small gap I had.  I ended up using a large pair of mole grips but with an hex slot on the tightening knob (not just the knurled ended). I used a hex drive on a ratchet and tightened them as tight as I could physically turn the ratchet and then hit the grips with a small hammer , this seemed to shock it loose but it was so hard to tell if I was undoing it or just stripping the threads more (or a bit of both). 30 more minutes of repeating this process and it dropped to the floor. It fought me to all but the last 2 threads

no sign of rust in thread or hole (just small bit of loctite) so no idea why it was such a PITA to get off. I think it was just the soft threads mangling and the lack of real tool access. Anyway I am sure the car has a few more nasty surprises coming my way but tonight I am going to call it a narrow win

Thanks to all for the encouragement and suggestions

[Three Speed]

Heroic effort - well done!

[wesacosa]

small casualty of the engine mount removal, One of the bracket studs is too long to clear the inner wing without the engine at some funky angle and the mount twisted around this one remaining fixing. Sadly trying to jack engine up and down whist twisting the mount and making sure the mount didn't smash onto the pulley the bolt had slipped and caught under a bit of chassis rail. of course it's unobtainable (PSA really are utterly appalling at keeping bits for old cars) so going to have to hope I can bash it straight (ish). That said I still can't remember why it has the second threaded portion , perhaps a bolt could be sourced instead

[Grumblespeed]

Progress👍 Just hope re-assembly isn't the reverse of.... Maybe pop the gearbox out the Panda for a quick rebuild for a bit of light relief before you tackle the next bit😁

[jonathan_dyane]

Fabulous! The bent bolt I would choose two suitable nuts then slit them with a hacksaw as if you were making a thread chaser then spin them on and use them to clamp the bolt in a vice and hammer it straight 

[wesacosa]

20 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Fabulous! The bent bolt I would choose two suitable nuts then slit them with a hacksaw as if you were making a thread chaser then spin them on and use them to clamp the bolt in a vice and hammer it straight 

Cheers. I was thinking of just putting two nuts on to clamp in the vice jaws and hammering, not sure what you mean by slitting them

[Bitzer]

Not exactly helpful, but... How many times is your Panda mentioned in "Best designs EVAH"? And how does it compare to XM?

I have no idea, because I have just made up the competition, but I have very certain opinions about signore Giugiaro and 1.0 FIRE engines.

[jonathan_dyane]

7 hours ago, wesacosa said:

Cheers. I was thinking of just putting two nuts on to clamp in the vice jaws and hammering, not sure what you mean by slitting them

If you cut across the threads like this when you clamp the bolt in the vice it will grip it on the threads so it can’t just turn as you hammer it

[Mally]

But make sure you have 2 spare nuts to destroy.

[Spurious]

Top work! I'd be taking the small victories here. 

 

[wesacosa]

10 hours ago, Bitzer said:

Not exactly helpful, but... How many times is your Panda mentioned in "Best designs EVAH"? And how does it compare to XM?

I have no idea, because I have just made up the competition, but I have very certain opinions about signore Giugiaro and 1.0 FIRE engines.

well I am still waiting to get properly to work on the Panda but at least I can see the whole of the engine in the bay which is a good start!   Luckily @spartacus did the cambelt on the Panda already so that is not on the to-do list

[mercedade]

Absolutely brilliant effort, lad. I was getting flashbacks to all kind of jobs attempted over the years where it's felt like I'd been backed into a hopeless corner.

Keep it up, can't wait to see the end result.

[Bitzer]

37 minutes ago, wesacosa said:

cambelt on the Panda

...is a piece of cake, 30 minutes maximum, plus 8V FIREs are non-interference engines.

Fingers crossed with that XM. I only saw the engine bay once and almost fainted.

[wesacosa]

59 minutes ago, Bitzer said:

...is a piece of cake, 30 minutes maximum, plus 8V FIREs are non-interference engines.

Fingers crossed with that XM. I only saw the engine bay once and almost fainted.

it must be horrific if you have the V6. the Diesel one lures you in, it looks tight but just about do-able but once you commit you realise every nut bolt clip or  fixing you want is about 1mm away from being able to get a hand or a tool on

[wesacosa]

not sure if its the anger and frustration talking but I am close to being done with this. Still no further on. The new stud to hold on the tensioner roller needs torquing down to 10nm but of course there is nothing to turn it with so needs to double nut. Trouble is the threads are soft as shit and you have only a small bit of spare thread to get the  nuts on. No matter how hard I tighten the nuts against eachother as soon as the stud starts to tighten instead of torquing it up the two nuts just start running down the thread.  I have tried so many times I can now feel the ends of the thread starting to give a bit.  So the situation is currently that I have the stud in but I have no fecking idea if its any more than finger tight.  

I am spending every spare evening and weekend day on this car now and getting precisely nowhere, and even if I manage to get the tensioner on I still have a whole heap of fucking miserable jobs to get it back together again which will no doubt go as badly wrong as this. At the minute I just want the ungrateful piece of shit off my drive and out of my sight forever , but as I say that could just be the anger and frustration talking . But I feel totally lost and utterly out of my depth with no idea how I am going to get it working again

I think now I have to switch my attention to getting the Panda ready for the FOTU and then see how I feel about the XM when I get back, but I think I am at total rock bottom with it and not sure how to get motivated again

whinge over, I off to get some tea

 

 

 

 

[Zelandeth]

Leave it for a couple of weeks, talk it over with a few people, get your mojo back and come back for another bash at it.

Been there, done that, bought the T shirt.  If you start getting wound up you'll start getting impatient and that's when you end up breaking stuff just out of carelessness that could be avoided.  I also tend to get tunnel vision and totally miss really simple solutions to problems when I get to that stage!