VW T4 Caravelle - Gen Up Time Pls

[BorniteIdentity]

1 minute ago, Ian_Fearn said:

Depending on your annual mileage...... an Elgrand?

Nope.  I hate them.  All doyleys and weird curtains.  Whenever I see one I just think "paedo".  

Fuel isn't a concern.  If you can't afford to run a decent sized engine, then you probably can't afford to run a car and all that it entails.  Not to a decent standard anyway.

I appreciate this isn't a popular look on Autoshite, but I just fancy something with a bit of credibility that can be sold on - not weighed in.

[Mr Laurence]

I hadn’t realised until now just how well T4s seem to have held their value. There’s a lot of really worn out high mileage stuff making what seems like very strong money to me. Volkswagen seemed to offer them in a lot of nice interesting colours though.

Is parts supply an issue with Previas/Estimas? There’s far more of those for sale than I would have guessed

[LostnotFound]

3 hours ago, BorniteIdentity said:

I don't really like Bongos.  Thin and tall - like a slice of cake.  

It is rubbish when you are in a cafe and ask for a slice and they pick the crap one rather than the fat one on the other side you were eyeing up.

3 hours ago, BorniteIdentity said:

that can be sold on - not weighed in.

This is what makes sense to me. I genuinely don't think you can easily go down the shite / bangernomics routes with anything remotely day / camper related.

Nothing is that field is both usable and cheap enough to be throw away (at least in my mind).

So going for something that will retain its value at least makes any work needed, welding etc... able to be viewed as running costs rather than just good money after bad.

[dave j]

What's your budget? There is a vast difference between a  rusty 1500 quid builders van and a 7 grand shiny one. Caravelles are rarer than vans so they are usually expensive! 

I regularly drive my brothers 1.9td camper and its slow, I had a go in a mates 2.5 tdi panel van and it was much quicker! 

[w00dy]

T4s have jumped in price, but not long enough for them to have owners that have spent any money caring for them. There's an awful lot of rough ones out there.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Viano-EXTRA-LONG-AMBIENTE/154175994356

 

[wuvvum]

Vito not a bad shout, although they have an ability to rust which would make a Granvia weep.  They are available with a comedy 220bhp V6 diesel though, and they are better value than the equivalent Dub.

[wuvvum]

Of course the correct AS solution to your dilemma is this:

Six seats and, if you rip out the table and sofas* in the back, loads of room for taking shiz to the tip.  Plus it has the ever-reliable Ford banana engine, with a turbo conversion so it should be able to get out of its own way.

[HMC]

What’s the reason and differences behind the standard and long nose? I could just google but it all adds to the flavour of the thread innit.

[Squarepegroundhole]

Another vote here for the V class/Vito/Viano.

for this reason and this reason only.

[Lacquer Peel]

1 hour ago, HMC said:

What’s the reason and differences behind the standard and long nose? I could just google but it all adds to the flavour of the thread innit.

To make room for the 2.5 TDI and VR6 I think. 

Beware the clutch and cambelt are huge jobs on TDIs. 

[Rusty_Rocket]

Are T4s at the point yet where a worthwhile one is dearer than a T5?

I only ask because T5s are more useable on a daily/ regular basis, they genuinely drive like a big car.  Go for a Caravelle or Shuttle (LWB) for the thick carpets and sound deadening.  They really don't rust much either, which I think is a concern with a T4. 

[BorniteIdentity]

Thanks for all the help on here.

We did consider Viano's - but weirdly anything decent is £7k.  We looked to buy one in 2014 when I bought the Granvia and - back then - anything worth having was £7k.  All plastics have been completely fucked by 10 years old by the process of having 40 suitcases in and out of it on a daily basis, and they're inhabited by people who don't give a flying shit.

I'm seeing a T4 Caravelle on Saturday which looks very promising indeed.  Never going to get something perfect under £6k but you get the feeling it's been loved, genuine reason for sale etc.  

One thing you can say about "TEH SCENE" is that, generally, people stick money into their vans.  Not always on the right thing, granted... (!)

[cobblers]

1 hour ago, BorniteIdentity said:

One thing you can say about "TEH SCENE" is that, generally, people stick money into their vans.  Not always on the right thing, granted... (!)

When I used to convert VWs for a living we'd be buying a T4 every couple of weeks (about ten years ago)

Stuff would often be advertised with "NO EXPENSE SPARED" but as you say, most of these so called enthusiasts seemed to think spending money on cliched stickers, dangerously wired chinese mains inverters, fairy lights and hideous seat covers was all the maintenance a VW needs, and underneath all that shite was usually quite a ropey vehicle.

[cobblers]

Oh, and to add something constructive: Check the sliding door track isn't rotten! At the front where the wheels sit when the door is closed, the wheels rub the paint off the steel and it rots through, then the wheels fall through the hole in the floor with the door closed. It's an absolute shit job to repair properly and the door will be a complete nuisance to use .

 

edit:

  

21 hours ago, wuvvum said:

Don't get a 1.9D.  They're comically slow.

Third post in a row, but these really are absolutely miserably slow, the only vehicle (other than mobility scooters) that I can outdrag up big hills in my talbot express. Avoid!

[BorniteIdentity]

I'm quite excited to see this one TBH.  Some of the bills he's paid would put other people off, but it just gives me some reassurance that he's not a penniless miser trying to enjoy the pineapple champagne lifestyle on lemonade money.

The way I look at it is whatever I stick in I should get back out again at the end.  That said, I'm looking for a real long termer so things like mileage etc don't overly concern me... just that it's 'turn key' and that I can get stuff easily when needed.

It's a bit unnerving, spending a good wedge on something though - I can't lie.  Last time I spent £6k on something for myself was...err... 2002!

[HMC]

At least these seem depreciation proof- if you buy well it will always be worth what you pay. 

[rickvw72]

Great vans these, If you buy right anyway.

Remember these were and are monumental cost new ( about £60k ) for a new one. Cheap ones are therefore worn or tired. (sub 5 grand) 
 

Think that point is missed a lot. Popular opinions often old van = couple of hundred quid.

Ive got the T25 version, awesome is the best word for it. Caravelles come with quite a few differences over vans including seat tracks, insulation, glazing etc which is hard to find / expensive if you convert a panel van. 
 

2.5 tdi can be finicky over cam belts. 1.9 tdi adequate. Gearboxes can go with big miles, but they are never worthless so hard to write off for mechanical failures.

The highest mileage non truck I’ve ever worked on was a t4 Caravelle. 681k if I remember right. 10 years as an airport bus. 

[BorniteIdentity]

On 1/19/2021 at 9:33 AM, HMC said:

At least these seem depreciation proof- if you buy well it will always be worth what you pay. 

This is what I'm hoping for.

I haven't spent £5-6k on a car for myself since 2002.  Then it was a 3 year old saloon.  My old boy was HORRIFIED that I'd consider spending that sort of money on a 20 year old bus, but I think I manged to "re-educate him"!  After all, not all cars fall to £500 before prices turn.  I'm not sure these things ever get much cheaper than £5k, especially in really nice condition.  Yes there are rotten old fucking dogs out there for £2k, and callously improved* vans with two rear facing seats for £3k, but an unmolested caravelle always seems to be about £5k.

Don't get me wrong, he still reckons I should buy an i800 but... err... I don't want to.

ManMaths™ leads me to believe that, if I look after it, I should get my money back at pretty much anytime I want to. Particularly in the summer.  But I'm not after a quick fling, I want a lasting relationship with one!

Anyway, seeing it on Saturday and - if the price is right, and it's not a lemon (which I don't think for a moment it will be) then I'll bring it home.

[dave j]

A mate of mine has a really nice caravelle, I know he was trying to sell it last year but don't know if he is still advertising it. Its a light metallic blue lwb 2.5. I can ask him if it's available if you dont get the one you are looking at on Saturday I remember it wasn't cheap though! 

[artdjones]

Don't forget that the TDI never got into these. The 1.9s are the indirect injection TD from the mk 3 Golf slightly detuned (why?) down to 68hp. I believe they are pretty tunable, though.

[BorniteIdentity]

1 hour ago, artdjones said:

Don't forget that the TDI never got into these.

It's a TDI that I'm viewing.  That's why they introduced the "Long Nose" - so it'd fit.  

I'm hoping that VW legend and all round nice guy @barefoot can confirm tho!

[wuvvum]

I think it was only the 2.5 which was TDI - the 1.9 was TD, and was a bit pointless really being less powerful than the NA 2.4D.

I'm still kicking myself for letting my T4 go for 800 quid a few years back.  I still made a drink on it even at that price, but the fact my 'phone was red hot should have been an indication that I'd underpriced it.

[artdjones]

18 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

It's a TDI that I'm viewing.  That's why they introduced the "Long Nose" - so it'd fit.  

I'm hoping that VW legend and all round nice guy @barefoot can confirm tho!

Yes, sorry, I was just talking about the 1.9 TDI. I don't know why they didn't put it in as 68 hp is still not great, but I suppose better than the 60 in the na. Even the 2.5 with the blue I in TDI only has 88. Maybe a 90hp 1.9 would have been better.

[barefoot]

The T4 really is the bargain of the moment. Overpriced in comparison to other marques perhaps, but in the VW world, it's cheap.

"There was one major facelift to the T4, in 1996, when a re-shaped, longer front end was introduced. This was needed to fit the six-cylinder VR6 engine into the T4's engine bay. Initially, only Caravelles and Multivans were available with the longer nose, since these were the only models available with the VR6 engine.

The commercial variants continued to be produced with the shorter nose until 2003. However, campers and other specialist vehicles produced between 1996 and 2003 may have either the short or the long nose, depending on which model was used as the base vehicle. In keeping with the Type 2's naming convention, the short and long-nose versions are also informally known as T4a and T4b, respectively"

.

[wuvvum]

23 minutes ago, artdjones said:

Yes, sorry, I was just talking about the 1.9 TDI. I don't know why they didn't put it in as 68 hp is still not great, but I suppose better than the 60 in the na. Even the 2.5 with the blue I in TDI only has 88. Maybe a 90hp 1.9 would have been better.

I think the "blue Is" can quite easily be wound up to rather more than 88bhp though.  Roverron does a tuning box for the 2.5 TDI - I've not tried one but I've had good experiences with his L-series box so might be worth looking into if you find yourself wanting some extra grunt.

[barefoot]

Further research reveals that in a similar fashion to the early design sketches of the Nissan Cherry Europe / Alfa Arna, the initial fitment of the V configuration engine into the T4 resulted in one of the 'banks' of cylinders protruding somewhat excessively through the bars of the front grille.

[artdjones]

I wonder how many VR6 T4s they sold? It seems a lot of investment for a vehicle that was a fairly limited market. 

[Squarepegroundhole]

1 hour ago, artdjones said:

I wonder how many VR6 T4s they sold? It seems a lot of investment for a vehicle that was a fairly limited market. 

Loads in the USA.

[jonathan_dyane]

Or one alternative:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274530712048

[scdan4]

5 hours ago, wuvvum said:

I think the "blue Is" can quite easily be wound up to rather more than 88bhp though.  Roverron does a tuning box for the 2.5 TDI - I've not tried one but I've had good experiences with his L-series box so might be worth looking into if you find yourself wanting some extra grunt.

It does. 

But what you really want is to replace it with a d5252t which is a development of the ael engine i believe. 140bhp stock, but whilst you were there you could swap turbo and injectors for bigger ones. 250+bhp and all the torque.