project 2002 Renault Clio II 172

[dome]

15 minutes ago, 320touring said:

6 hrs for 6 bolts. Needed crows foot spanners, Gearbox mount off too. All to change 1 power steering pipe.

 

It went from the rack right rear of engine - along the back, over the gearbox and round the front to under the alternator.

@dome was not pleased he offered to assist

Shudder. That day was one of the reasons I went epas on the kangoo. Feel isn't bad at all once you're off the straight ahead position. It's not for everyone to be fair.

Which, handily, means I've got all the old aux belt/ps gubbins if @SiC needs any of it?

[SiC]

6 hrs for 6 bolts. Needed crows foot spanners, Gearbox mount off too. All to change 1 power steering pipe.
 
It went from the rack right rear of engine - along the back, over the gearbox and round the front to under the alternator.
[mention=7629]dome[/mention] was not pleased he offered to assist

Could be worse, it could be like the PAS pipes on the Boxster. From a packed mid engine to front right wheel arch and then back into the undertray area. Replacement requires dropping front subframe and I think rear too. It's why most people replace the rotted crimps on them with Jubilee clips!

Is it not possible to just replace the Clio pipe with a rubber pipe instead of all the hard lines? At 6 hours even, I'd be tempted to pull the engine almost.

Shudder. That day was one of the reasons I went epas on the kangoo. Feel isn't bad at all once you're off the straight ahead position. It's not for everyone to be fair.
Which, handily, means I've got all the old aux belt/ps gubbins if [mention=20071]SiC[/mention] needs any of it?

Possibly will be interested! Do you still have the tensioner and is it reasonably recent? Renault obviously realised the tensioning system was a bit shit during development and testing, as they spec a ridiculously short 36k/3yr interval on them.

This was supposed to have had something changed when the last owner had it, as the owner before got rid after belt shed but luckily not into cambelt. But I don't exact what was changed though. Tensioner doesn't look that fresh, so maybe belt and idler??

Had plenty of cars with EPAS. From the Smart Roadster that was full assist up to about 30mph when it fully disengaged in a binary fashion! To a Civic EP with its dodgy Honda system that goes bad and twitchy in the middle. Then the completely devoid of any feel TT MK2 steering. I'm not dead against the system but for a fun car at this age, the hydraulic systems are far superior. I imagine the latest gen on modern cars are way more intelligent and gradual in their assistance. But anything previous to around 2010-ish with EPAS really don't give masses of feel.

[Split_Pin]

10 hours ago, SiC said:

Aircon works great on this. Certainly was very happy with it the last few months.

Really don't want EPAS. If I'm wanting to loose the steering feel, I'd go for a modern car. Hydraulic PAS certainly packed into these mind.

Need to krust and paint those hydraulic lines though to prolong their life.

I greased mine, didn't get any worse in 2 years.

I gave away a full set of good lines with mine when I sold it

[SiC]

Is it worth paying for ClioSport membership to access the guides sections?

If I do, is there anything in the new membership pack worth getting? Tempted to hit the renewal button instead of new member, as the pack looks like 50 pence worth of tat for a fiver.

[cort16]

Just drive it until something breaks then fix it unless it's obviously dangerous. A good way to get put off cars is to have them all in bits and not driving.

This also tends to lead to the buying of more cars as the other ones are all broken and so the cycle continues until one day the outside of your house looks like this

[SiC]

Right I made a decision based on the fact that I started it up a day after that video and it now does this all the time even under small movements. So this was ordered at the weekend and arrived today.

(Aux kit with tensioner)

Waiting for a genuine 90mm Jubilee to arrive now before I can get on fitting with it.

In the meantime I pulled this beast out of storage as the backup car.


Apparently pretending it doesn't exist won't change my wife's view that it needs to go. I keep being reminded that the deal was if I got the Clio, I had to sell the Laguna...

So I need to give it a clean and take some pictures of it. Even suggesting that it could be a backup car didn't go down well either as the Boxster easily fulfils that role.

Also let's not tell her that I've been paying road tax on it since in storage the last 3 months because I never bothered to SORN it ...

[Split_Pin]

Shame it has to go but like you I would much rather CLIO.

Good luck with the tensioner, I farmed that job out as it wasn't expensive. I think if you take off the bumper it's easier but mine was literally rusted on and that's what put me off.

You took a Boxter to bits so it'll be reet!

[dome]

On 8/22/2020 at 9:07 AM, SiC said:

Is it worth paying for ClioSport membership to access the guides sections?

If I do, is there anything in the new membership pack worth getting? Tempted to hit the renewal button instead of new member, as the pack looks like 50 pence worth of tat for a fiver.

PM sent! 

Here's tensioning torque/procedure.

I've got some cam seals too which I never fitted (pulley end) as mine looked fresh if you need them.

[SiC]

Made a start on this last night


Fits in with plenty of room at the front compared to my other cars. Impressively small for a post 2000s car.


The stiffness of the chassis is clear why these little things handle pretty well. This is jacked up on one side with only one stand under it.


Wheels off


CV boot is split on offside. Balls.


Bumper off


Light out


Engine jacked up and supported on the sump. Rubber sandwich to spread the load


Engine mount bolt out


Top of cambelt/engine mount off


Good chance to look at the belt. Not new but doesn't look horrific really.


Fluffy engine padding out. Looks a bit chewed up but the worst bit I think is rubbing against the block rather than pulley.


Crank pulley looks a bit perished



Can't go any further now until my Jubilee clip arrives. Ordered it at the weekend so it's a bit irritating that it hasn't arrived yet. Especially was hoping it would be here today too.

[Split_Pin]

Excellent start to that, I just copped out and paid someone else to do it. The structure looks in good condition at the front too.

[SiC]

I would say it hasn't been too difficult but I've not got to the stage of undoing the bolts yet. Praying/crossing everything in the hope nothing snaps. 

[SiC]

Progress on this has slowed right down to a crawl for waiting on parts.

Quick update from before the video. Removing the belt was a pain but not as bad as I expected.

Employed these:

Which I put around the tensioner.

Then tightened with loads of extensions. First attempt had it ping off. As you might imagine it had a lot of energy stored into it!

With that tightened the belt came off. Belt actually looks in pretty decent nick

Discovered the source of the noise.

Tensioner wasn't too bad to undo. Anyone reading this doing it themselves, make sure you keep your fingers away from it. Mine was seized and once cracked off, it then banged hard as it moved around on the bolt.

Also make sure you take off the spring as recommend in any instructions. I didn't and it got stuck removing it.

As the assembly was no longer attached to the car, I couldn't get that bolt undone. So ended up having to remove the alternator for enough room to remove.

Bottom idler pulley was awkward. Simply no room to get a socket and ratchet in.

There is a hole that you can get a tool through if you jack the engine up to the right place. Required moving the jack to get the engine to fall into the right place.

Idle pulley didn't seem to bad. Actually a lot freer moving than the new. Hopefully the new will loosen off in use.

At this point everything ground to a halt awaiting parts. I've ordered a replacement crank pulley, bolt and water pump that is still to arrive. Unfortunately the online retailer I used is taking well over a week before even shipping the parts. Something I'm putting up with as the crank pulley is over a third cheaper than OEM Renault. Backup if they take too long is Domes mate who can supply a known good second hand one.

As everyone who knows anything about these cars, the cam pulleys are all loose spinning on the pulley side. The tightening of the bolts is what locks everything in place. So once I undo that crank pulley there is potential for everything to be out of time.

Second hand locking tools came yesterday. Says diesel engines but does petrol too. Admittedly not a full set really needed for a cambelt change but I only intended to lock things for the crank pulley. Plus they were only £18.50 shipped.

These caps were a nightmare to remove. I ended up using a chisel to cut down so I could prize it out. Will need new end caps now.

Which actually didn't end up as much a big deal as I thought. This is the exhaust side with the locking tool in the intake position and crank locked.

Intake side with in exhaust slots.

I can't leave it like this. Not least if I can't get the locking tools in, it risks being even worse out when undoing the pulley bolt. But to sort properly I'm basically going to do everything required for a cambelt change except removing the belt. So looks like I'll be ordering a cambelt kit and genuine locking tools so I can lock up those pulleys. ?

I'm debating whether to buy a replacement dephaser. I know on here everyone will say just do it as you're this far. However they're not cheap and my view + experience on them is that (apart from a bad batch early on), they last a long time if regular oil changes are kept. Which this car has had. So I feel the risk is quite low if I don't. Plus worse case is that it'll just be noisy and down on power. Yet to see any reports of a failed dephaser taking an engine out. Will save £150 if I don't replace!

[Split_Pin]

Good going man, you are not put off by this car!

Looks like a right old war there but at least you appear calm and have a reasoned plan of action.

[mercedade]

From everything you've ever done to your cars over the years, you don't strike me as a man who would be particularly well placed to cope with "it'll just be noisy and down on power"

For me it's a no-brainer here. If you've got doubts, they won't go away.

[SiC]

I don't have any choice now! Very much balls deep into it.

The only options are to roughly bolt it together and have it transported off to a garage, or strip it for parts. As the cat is worth just under £500, gearbox £200-300, almost new tyres + (scabby) alloys probably £75-100, ECU set £60, etc, etc I can get my money back if I screw this up. 

So perfect chance to learn how to change a Cambelt! Not actually particularly worried about this one as it looks straight forward and a well trodden path. Only awkwardness will be if stuff is seized onto other stuff - i.e. a war to get pulleys off. 

Probably get flamed for this but there isn't particularly much skill in this. Just wrenching fasteners and following instructions while skinning your hands. It's not like bodywork where you have cut, shape, affix and paint metal - all of which require finely honed skills in their own right. Likewise diagnosing, old school engine tuning and problem solving are skills that are the differences between a technician and a proper mechanic. This is just a technician job. 

[bigfella2]

Your probably right there isn't much skill in doing the cambelt, but there is a skill in doing the cambelt and timing it properly as you have found, as the last person has cocked it up.

Getting the timing wrong on these can lose you alot of power.

[davehedgehog31]

Fuck me, what a palaver. Well done for persisting. 

[mercedade]

12 minutes ago, SiC said:

I don't have any choice now! Very much balls deep into it.

The only options are to roughly bolt it together and have it transported off to a garage, or strip it for parts. As the cat is worth just under £500, gearbox £200-300, almost new tyres + (scabby) alloys probably £75-100, ECU set £60, etc, etc I can get my money back if I screw this up. 

So perfect chance to learn how to change a Cambelt! Not actually particularly worried about this one as it looks straight forward and a well trodden path. Only awkwardness will be if stuff is seized onto other stuff - i.e. a war to get pulleys off. 

Probably get flamed for this but there isn't particularly much skill in this. Just wrenching fasteners and following instructions while skinning your hands. It's not like bodywork where you have cut, shape, affix and paint metal - all of which require finely honed skills in their own right. Likewise diagnosing, old school engine tuning and problem solving are skills that are the differences between a technician and a proper mechanic. This is just a technician job. 

Literally couldn't agree more

I probably wasn't very clear, I meant your doubts about the dephaser, not the car in general.  I think you're doing it right, just don't sell yourself short for the sake of £150.

[cort16]

Quote

but there isn't particularly much skill in this.

It's a brave man who says something like this before the job is finished and the car is running again!

[dome]

Stick up a photo of the existing dephaser and compare it to the one that came off mine-you're welcome to it for the cost of postage if you want?

 

[SiC]

Your probably right there isn't much skill in doing the cambelt, but there is a skill in doing the cambelt and timing it properly as you have found, as the last person has cocked it up.
Getting the timing wrong on these can lose you alot of power.

I reckon this was last done by locking the cams and crank together, replacing the belt+tensioner and then pulling the tools out. However as you get variance in belts and their tension, this will leave it to be out. The neat idea of these floating cams is that you can't be a tooth or two out. As they are free moving during the tensioning phase, they are effectively infinitely adjustable and you can get them bang on. Providing you do it correctly of course.

[SiC]

Fuck me, what a palaver. Well done for persisting. 

This is why I wanted to ignore the noise if it was only on full lock. My big fear was that it would end up needing a lot more work than just the aux belt + tensioner!

All the while my poor old Dolomite is sat rusting outside and waiting for its turn to be put back on the road.

Literally couldn't agree more
I probably wasn't very clear, I meant your doubts about the dephaser, not the car in general.  I think you're doing it right, just don't sell yourself short for the sake of £150.

The only reason I have doubt is because everyone on the internet say replace as it's a cambelt job again if it does fail. Which if you're paying someone else to do the work requires another cambelt job. But my labour on this is free*.

but there isn't particularly much skill in this.

It's a brave man who says something like this before the job is finished and the car is running again!
Haha yes I did hesitate briefly when I wrote that! I'm just hoping that the fasteners come undone and do not snap. If they do, this could end up being a right war. Possibly even requiring the engine being pulled if they do snap badly in the wrong place.

I think the water pump could be the thing that gives me the most pain though.

Stick up a photo of the existing dephaser and compare it to the one that came off mine-you're welcome to it for the cost of postage if you want?

Cool! I'll go take a picture in a bit. The one on mine looks pretty clean and tidy from the outside.

I've just ordered genuine locking tools as the Laser set I've got doesn't have the cam locking plate. When you've done the belts on your F4R, have you used a cam locking plate?

I've seen people get away with not using them but I know you're not supposed to tighten against the cam locking tools due to the risk of damaging the half moons. But then apparently a lot more faff as you tighten, check, loosen adjust, retighten until it's done. Vs the locking plate keeps everything thing solid while you tighten up.

[dome]

8 minutes ago, SiC said:

I've just ordered genuine locking tools as the Laser set I've got doesn't have the cam locking plate. When you've done the belts on your F4R, have you used a cam locking plate?

I've seen people get away with not using them but I know you're not supposed to tighten against the cam locking tools due to the risk of damaging the half moons. But then apparently a lot more faff as you tighten, check, loosen adjust, retighten until it's done. Vs the locking plate keeps everything thing solid while you tighten up.

The pulley locking tool I have seems a very good bit of kit. 

You're right in what you say, the u shaped plate on the cams and the crank locking pin hold things in place, the pulley locking tool is what you need to tighten the cam bolts up though. Yes, there is a bit of faffing to get it right.

I struggled to get the pulleys on loose enough that the whole timing gear could be rotated and the tension checked but practice will help. You'll get plenty of that...

 

[SiC]

Been having a read through the history folder. Last recorded cambelt was at 76k in 2007 with a Renault dealer. 

Last guy who owned it was a mechanic and said that he did it himself but can't find the receipt. Aux belt was changed because it shedded itself and how he got the car in the first place, so he did the cambelt at the same time. There is a Renault receipt around this time for a plastic Cambelt cover, so this ties up 

OEM belts are Gates branded. Both belts on the car are Dayco branded, so this all ties up that it was done when he got the car. However he got the car iirc in late 2016, so aux belt definitely due and the cambelt isn't that far off. 

However there is also an oil change service hole between 2012 (112.7k miles) and 2015 (141.3k miles). Changes are supposed to be every 12k miles or two years. I actually thought it was the standard Renault 18k/2yrs, but reading the service book closer says otherwise. Hence the 28k difference in miles means it was quite overdue.

Also it was last serviced in 2015 but only done 8k miles since. This doesn't bother me too much due to the low-ish miles. 

BUT the dephaser are one of the few things on these engines that don't appreciate having oil change intervals stretched out. This is a known thing to cause them to wear internally. 

A Wolverhampton Renault dealer on eBay are offering cambelt kit for £95 and a cambelt kit with dephaser for £210. So a genuine dephaser works out as £115. 

Given I intend to sell this car if I find a really nice Clio 182, what everyone always asks when buying one these is when the cambelt, aux belt, tensioners and dephaser were last changed. As I'll be doing this myself, having the receipts for parts is important (plus this thread being documentary evidence!)

Thus I'm thinking it'll be silly if I don't bite the bullet and get the dephaser bought + changed with brand new. The question mark in my mind is that the oil changes have a big gaps this decade and that won't have done the internals of it any good. Especially as it's now on 150k. 

[SiC]

I also remember @Mr_Bo11ox Laguna 2.0T thread when doing a cambelt change. He did the belts and then soon after doing that, had the dephaser rattling... 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Yeah I never did the belts on my 2.0T. I did change the dephaser on the 2.0 NA, for a secondhand one that made exactly the same racket as the old one

[SiC]

Ah yeah I forgot you've had two. Iirc the first one went to worldofceri?

Decision made. Bought this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271771312931

Cheapest kit with dephaser that is from a Renault dealer. Others are available from different sellers for less, but I don't trust them to be actually genuine and not fakes for what they're asking. 

Interestingly there appears a Delphi Dephaser of slightly different design to these available for less. Full Dayco kit with the Delphi Dephasers are going for £150. For £60 more I fancy taking my chances more with the proper shizzle. 

Locking tools due to come tomorrow and that kit due Wednesday. Other order of pulley + water pump still not shipped yet despite due tomorrow... At least those bits are the last to go on. 

[dome]

Yeah, that's the best way to do it. You've got a water pump don't you? Watch the water pump bolts, I had a couple round off on me. Mine hadn't been changed in a long time.

Check the cam seals on the pulley end too. I've got a set here-mine were fine but i was advised they can start to leak at this age.

[SiC]

18 minutes ago, dome said:

Check the cam seals on the pulley end too. I've got a set here-mine were fine but i was advised they can start to leak at this age.

I was just looking through the belt change procedure and it reminded me about them. Not cheap for genuine are they ?

50:50 whether I change them. I'd rather not but ... going on my luck thus far, what are the chances that they'll need doing? ?

[SiC]

Fuck it. Ordered. ??

Just hope Mrs SiC doesn't see my credit card bill this month. ?