project 2002 Renault Clio II 172

[djoptix]

49 minutes ago, SiC said:

I didn't have the special tool so I used my angle grinder

I do this!!!!!

49 minutes ago, SiC said:

key

Oh.

[dome]

Great work. I had the different pulley in the kit I put on the Kangoo which caused a bit of head scratching. I'm not as thorough as you at writeups though so don't think I mentioned it.

 

 

[SiC]

Great work. I had the different pulley in the kit I put on the Kangoo which caused a bit of head scratching. I'm not as thorough as you at writeups though so don't think I mentioned it.
 
 

Did I get it right?! I've still got a bit left before I find out!

[dome]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

1 hour ago, dome said:

Great work. I had the different pulley in the kit I put on the Kangoo which caused a bit of head scratching. I'm not as thorough as you at writeups though so don't think I mentioned it.
 
 

Did I get it right?! I've still got a bit left before I find out!

The size and position seemed right so I fitted it and all was well.

Agreed on how tight the belt is to get on, it's a right arse!

[stuboy]

crikey they dont make it easy

[Noel Tidybeard]

i reckon doing the belt on a v6 vectra would be easier than this!

[SiC]

On 9/12/2020 at 10:34 PM, stuboy said:

crikey they dont make it easy

They really don't! This engine is very much engineered to retrofit in rather than the car designed with it I mind. 

3 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

i reckon doing the belt on a v6 vectra would be easier than this!

Possibly but then that lump is a lot heavier! At least it should be marginally shorter as it has one less cylinder on the end. 

[Noel Tidybeard]

Just now, SiC said:

They really don't! This engine is very much engineered to retrofit in rather than the car designed with it I mind. 

Possibly but then that lump is a lot heavier! At least it should be marginally shorter as it has one less cylinder on the end. 

yes but the belt is about eleventy foot long and goes round twelvety pulleys and my b-i-l said he would disown me if i bought one and asked for belt job doing!

[dome]

They're easier to change second time round?

Also easier when the engine has been installed in something a bit bigger, like a Kangoo...

[SiC]

Is this the slowest cambelt change ever?

Did a bit more the other day when I got a free moment. Firstly rechecked the tensioner pulley to see if it had shifted from the belt being under tension.


It hadn't. Good.

Basically the bits I've marked in red on this old pulley need to line up. You do this by moving the arm and then nipping up the fixing nut.


Tightened up the pulleys and sprockets. Most of these are tightened up by an initial torque setting and then a final angle setting. I don't have an angle gauge, so I did it by eye. Exhaust pulley is 86 degrees +/- 6 degrees ... so 90 degrees. Easy enough.


Then the same on the crank pulley. Specs for this are all over the place. Even the Renault Workshop manual doesn't even agree with itself. I did 20nm torque and then 135 degrees (+/- 15 degrees). So basically marked 90 degrees, 180 degrees and did by eye the 45 degrees in the middle. 90degrees+45 degrees = 135 degrees.

Btw the 135nm that I've read elsewhere is way too tight. I did that with the first bolt but I got to around 110nm by the time it had moved over 180 degrees. I did that with a replacement bolt but it just didn't feel right when tightening it up. You know that feeling when tightening and it just doesn't give as much resistance as you expect?

I chucked that bolt out and went back to the original. The original I measured less than 49.1mm which is the Renault spec if you want to reuse it.


Rechecked tension ... and it was out again. Blah. Undid the nut, adjusted and tightened up again. Then spun the engine around to check it was correct.


At this point I left it for a day as the next steps was the aux belt. But was looking good.


Coming back I re-read through the instructions and came across this at the start...
IMPORTANT: it is essential to refit the lower timing
cover before the crankshaft accessories pulley.

On fecking arses!

Off the bottom crank pulley comes again. Fiddly cover back on, tighten it's fixings and then crank pulley back on.



In this pic, it's a bit clearer how I tightened up the crank pulley. I marked on the pulley itself the starting point. Then used the 6 sides of the bolt as reference points. 0 degrees/60 degrees/120 degrees/180 degrees/240 degrees/300 degrees/360(or 0) degrees. So basically tightened to 20nm first and then 120 degrees and then a bit more.



Then rechecked my marker to ensure the pulley hadn't slipped.


I'm quite happy these bolts are tightened up correctly now. Quite crucial as they hold all the timing in place.

Turned the engine over again by hand to make sure everything is sweet. I have the plugs out at the moment so I can accurately feel it going over without fighting the engine compression.

Put the upper alloy cambelt cover on.


Tensioner in. Hard to see because it's so tight in there.


Special service tool in place but not tightened just yet.


Btw this is the size I used.


Alternator back in (yes this is awkward and fiddly)


Tightened the special service tool. At this point my fingers kept well away from it.


Then belt on. I had to undo the alternator top bolt to give me a bit more room to get the belt on as really tight.


Finally double checked the path of the belt. Realised then I the belt around is the wrong side of the bottom idler pulley. Argh.


I didn't want to de-tension the tensioner as it is a faff and quite dangerous thing to be tightening up. So instead I pushed the belt off the pulley with a pry bar, screwdriver and socket extension.


Finally turned the engine over again for good measure.

I'm now at the point where I can start putting the rest of it back together. Intended to put fresh oil in as it's been sitting for a good few weeks now, so most of it will have drained. Also will give the dephaser nice fresh new oil too. Must remember to fill the coolant back up as well!

I'll probably put a few bits back together on the front so I can get the battery on first. Then turn it over without the plugs in and fuel pump relay out to check. Finally plugs in and without the fuel pump relay to check under compression.

Then maybe even go for a first start

[SiC]

One extra thing to mention is the accuracy of the cam timing. The Renault Workshop manual mentions that the tool needs to be freely fitting without forcing.

On the Laser tool it is.


Renault tool however is a very snug fit and requires a bit of a push to get in. No doubt because it's much more accurately made and closer tolerances.


I'd like the get the Renault tool as freely fitting as the Laser tool but that'd require loosening it all up and doing it again. As the cams are under tension when timing from both the valve springs and also the twisting of the cam, it is darn hard to get it set closer. If the cams freely moved and loose during putting the tool in, it would be alright. But they don't due to the setup of it. It could be possible to stick feeler gauge strips under the teeth of the back end of the cam, but trying this I could only get a 0.05mm feeler gauge in. Thin enough that it dented it!

Right now though it's pretty much bang on, way better than most people doing it DIY with the Laser tool and an order of magnitude closer than what it originally was set to! Given people have these running happily with the imprecise Laser tool and a fraction of a degree it would need to move on the current timing, I'm very happy that it's set bang on what it needs to be. There is also the risk if I did try getting it closer, it'd end up further out too. Especially as I adjusted this several times to get it closer.

I think it's when you tighten the cams up is when the timing moves ever so slightly. Despite having the locking plate on the cams. Probably from the metal twisting a fraction of an amount in the long cams.

[bigfella2]

Good progress, well done. What coolant are you intending to use? Are you going for the green Renault stuff?

[SiC]

16 minutes ago, bigfella2 said:

Good progress, well done. What coolant are you intending to use? Are you going for the green Renault stuff?

Will be some Mannol Pink G12 coolant I have left over from the Boxster radiator, tank and pump job I did. Coolant in the system is already pink stuff and I'm not doing a full flush of it. So some of it is still in the radiators. 

Not sure what's so special about the Renault coolant over the other Long Life stuff you can get. Apart from it's a very impressive luminous green!

[bigfella2]

I'm sure it's probably the same as the pink stuff with a different dye in it, only reason I asked was because you have a very belt and braces attitude to your work, would have assumed you would have gone green just so it was correct. 

Every time I have done a cambelt change, I always have to leave it a day or two before I dare fire it up, just incase it all goes to shit and valves hit pistons, does anybody have 'the fear' or is it just me?

 

[SiC]

Progress to first startup has taken a step backwards.


Made the mistake of trying to fix the bolt it's leaking out of by tightening it up further. Of course that didn't fix it, especially as they were all torqued up correctly.

All its done is made them round off when I go to undo them.

Aux Belt is back off. Alternator out. Now just the task of trying to get these bolts undone so I can get the water pump back out again to redo with a new gasket.

[SiC]

This one certainly put up a fight. Tried hammering a socket into it, chiselling it off, mole grips and Dremel a slot in. I certainly did these up tight!

All this abuse just ended up mullering the head completely.


Only one thing left...

Donned up on PPE


Armed myself with the power file


And went to war with the bolt head.

This was enough left to chisel the remainder out in circles.


Leaving it completely out.


Next up was the second bolt I rounded off. This was further up and a nightmare to get to. A lot easier with the alternator and tensioner off though. Tried a few tricks again, including using a chisel to smash the soft aluminium casting but to no avail. As this was nearer the fuel line and next to the plastic cover, I wasn't too keen on using the power file on it.

However none of that worked and I was forced to go medieval on that too. I used An off cut of cardboard as a shield to prevent metal dust and sparks going where I didn't want them.

Ten minutes later and the battle was won.



Thank goodness.

I carefully cleaned up the area with a magnet on a stick and then hoovered.

The new pump is messed up, so this will need replacing too. It's unfortunate but I rather that than either damaging the block or having to pull the engine.


I wasn't going to take any risk with the cambelt. So I removed the pulley (yet again!) to inspected the belt for make sure no coolant leaking on it and ensure no metal filings got in or stuck to the pulley.




Now need to source yet another new pump and a few replacement bolts! Next time I'm going to use my blue Hylomar, despite what the instructions say...

[dome]

Shit, it was all going so well 😓

[djoptix]

I've always wanted a 1*2 but this thread is doing a good job of changing my mind. Give me a Renault 4 engine any day 🤣

[DoctorRetro]

Jesus. I'd have thrown my tools down in a huff ages ago - awesome job persevering with it! 

[juular]

Ouch. Keep at it man, it will be worth it in the end. Better doing it your way and getting all the filings and crap out of the way than pushing on and finding rusty metal jammed in belts and pulleys.

Irwin bolt grips are pretty good for getting out of an expensive world of hurt. They actually start to work better as the bolt head becomes more chewy.

[beko1987]

Ouch! I think my car has a slight weep from the waterpump too, although not that bad! 

Also after the new forum update your picture of the water dripping down moves! 

[SiC]

What I'm most annoyed about (except the extra expense) is that I was really looking forward to a good hooning around this evening.

Also telling is the RTV that was stuck around the old pump impeller shaft. Someone either had problems before or didn't take the risk!

[Rocket88]

I'd have set fire to the ungrateful bastard about 3 pages back............😱

[Split_Pin]

That is a suboptimal turn of events but knowing you everything will be ship-shape by Tuesday and you'll be going for a worry-free blast

 

[SiC]

Time for an update.

Got a new pump. This one is a "GSF Premium" pump but I've forgotten the brand. Some Italian one.


Covers quite a few Renault models this.


Also got £20 (!) worth of genuine Renault monkey metal bolts to replace the originals.


This time I wasn't taking any chances with this pump. I've used Hylomar blue which is a non hardening joint compound. So it should be mushed up by the pump if it ever comes loose.


Gasket on


Block got similar treatment


Pump on and torqued up. You may notice that the top left bolt is original and not a new one. This is because I put a new one on and slipped while torquing it up (access is tight). These are so crap that it rounded off. So I gingerly undid it without completely screwing the head up and put a good old one back in. Next person here will be appreciative of this fact!


Filled cooling system up and no leaks!

[Tenmil Socket]

After my first cambelt change I gingerly turned the key and it started fine but then kept cutting out and I immediately thought 'oh no'. Checking under the bonnet it was just a vacuum line I hadn't connected, phew!

Good work BTW.

[SiC]

After the above, a couple of days later I checked the pump again with the system still full. No visible leaks, so much improved from last time.


Drained the oil and changed the filter. For once I didn't get it everywhere. Refilled with this. You know it's good shit when they have a Laguna II Ph2 estate on the tin.


Fitted the aux belt

Banged in the caps for the cam ends that had the timing tool in.


Removed the fuel pump relay. Tip, it's the brown relay next to the purple on this Clio 172. Later gens have a different fuse box.


Blocked the engine up so it wasn't sitting on the floor.


Fitted plugs and battery. Then went for a turn over...

Good start! Spurred on by that success I continued on putting the car back together.

Fitted the bottom acoustic and road debris cover.


This has a metal clip to hold it against a support. However the clip had rusted off. I did the correct* thing and used a cable tie.


Doesn't hit or rub against the crank pulley thankfully


Top end I'm not going to fit as it's already chewed up and after removing won't go on without risking being sucked into the belt.



Cleaned up the manifold gasket areas and also the big intake manifold. I replaced the rubber seal at the back while I was here.



Engine mount reattached, slam panel back on, reattached dog bone mount undernrath and it is looking like it's nearly there.


Oh wait... WTF is this sitting at the end of the garage


It's the alternator support bracket. FFS.

Jubilee clip back on, alternator bolt loosened and alternator tipped towards the front gave enough slack to remove the top bolts.


Top tip: if you're struggling to get a new aux belt on, I've found it easier to undo the alternator and pivot towards the front. This gives extra slack to get it over the alternator pulley.

Reattached the bracket and torqued it all back up again ... For the fourth time.



Replaced the pollen filter while I was under the bonnet. Easy to do by removing the plastic scuttle cover by the wipers. 6mm hex bolt and it slides right out.


Engine air filter turned out to be completely the wrong one. Irritating.

Final step was to pack up the tools and do a check that all were back. Too easy to have a socket fall into the car and be lost for all time. Even worse, get stuck into something moving!


Still need to do the actual start with it all back together.

Tempted to go out now and give it a go. Especially before it's all back together and on the ground. Rather nervous doing it, I won't deny! It's been such a long job, there is every chance I've forgotten something.

[juular]

Top graft. I always feel nervous starting for the first time after a cambelt, but if you've turned the engine over and the belts are all happily lined up then you've done as much due diligence as you can. Take some coolant with you on your first drive 👍

[beko1987]

2 hours ago, Tenmil Socket said:

After my first cambelt change I gingerly turned the key and it started fine but then kept cutting out and I immediately thought 'oh no'. Checking under the bonnet it was just a vacuum line I hadn't connected, phew!

Good work BTW.

I did the same with my zx, hadn't plugged the throttle body in which held the anti stall valve... 

I did scream for a bit until I Checked everything

[SiC]

Temptation got too much. Sorry for being a bit rambling, I'm no pro for sure!