project 1968 Austin 1100 Mk1 (Take 2) - Gone :(

[SiC]

Sitting outside the garage now waiting for it to fumigate...

[BeEP]

11 hours ago, SiC said:

On 7/25/2020 at 2:41 PM, vulgalour said:

For the steering wheel, is there a plastic bush in the column?  Other BL (and presumably BMC) stuff tends to have a plastic collar at each end of the steering column, they go brittle and break and then the steering wheel can wobble about a bit even when tightened up.

Possibly! Or probably? I'll go check the parts manual and see what it says. Unless BeEP/sharly know off hand.

Plastic bush at the top. felt at the bottom like a mini (literally just a piece of felt in the shape of a parallelogram which wraps round the inner column).  Both my recent 1100 acquisitions have needed the latter to be replaced.  Also check the pinch bolt at the bottom of the column; it only needs to work slightly loose for some in-out play to appear.

PS Would you be interested in selling the static belts?  For me they're a quintessential part of the 1100 experience, and my latest car (the white one) doesn't have them.  Ironically it has inertia items probably fitted in the late 70s.

[SiC]

She's escaped!


Tried doing a tune on the drive, but it didn't seem to make much difference where the jet was set to. Pushing the suction piston up and down caused only a minor increase of revs. I suspect it's probably not helped by the insides all carboned up from running way rich for too long.

After the carb fiddle, gave it a run up and down the cul-de-sac. Seems to be running just fine. Revs hanging a bit but I think that the new cable catching. Will have to lube it.

Only thing is that the brakes are super shite. A good amount of travel to get a decent slow down and not really able to lock the wheels. Is this normal on a MK1 ADO16? I know they're not modern brakes and they put a new design in for the MK2 + MK3, but I at least expected the wheels to lock under hard braking!

[Mr Pastry]

12 minutes ago, SiC said:

Only thing is that the brakes are super shite. A good amount of travel to get a decent slow down and not really able to lock the wheels. Is this normal on a MK1 ADO16? I know they're not modern brakes and they put a new design in for the MK2 + MK3, but I at least expected the wheels to lock under hard braking!

My family had a succession of these from new, 2 MK 1s, and 3 later ones.  I remember the brakes as being good, and not much difference between early and late.   The later swinging caliper design was a bit of penny pinching.  Incidentally, nobody ever called them ADO16s back in the day.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Mr Pastry

[SiC]

Just tried again, I think I'm not pushing hard enough quick enough as only driving slowly (sub 20mph) up and down the road. Next step is to go a bit further afield!

Running out of sunlight now though and getting hungry.

Dynamo box needs adjusting as only just getting the charge light out (with ~2A charge rate) at a 1100rpm idle. 1000rpm leaves a 1.5A discharge. Battery voltage is around 12.6v at 1100rpm. This is with nothing on. I guess ideally I should be having a bit more than that and able to have the idle more like 800rpm.

Could cheat and just fit a alternator but that feels like I'm admitting defeat on the dynamo without even starting to try...

But the good news is that it's pretty much all together and (finally) sorted now!

[LightBulbFun]

happy to see you finally have been able to hit the road in an ADO16 finally  

I look forward to hearing how it goes from here  (hopefully well!)

[SiC]

Ran out of time today so put the 1100 back inside to refresh it with some more electricity.


I probably need to have a look at the column bushes as the steering is a bit on the slack side all round. Looking forward to giving it a spin. The engine is eager, quiet and smooth running. Will take it on quieter roads at first in the evening and also bring some tools with me. Worse case I can walk home and collect any bits I need to sort it. But it feels keen and not like it's on the edge of cutting out. Famous last words of course!

Will be interesting to see what it's like to drive. Very much at the bottom end of 60s classic cars in desirability and affordability. I think really the only 60/70s classic car you can get that is half decent (obviously peoples perception of that varies) and under 2k now? Even road ready Dolomites/Toledos are pretty much above the £2k barrier now.

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Dynamo box needs adjusting as only just getting the charge light out

Suggest it would be worth having a look at the brushes before messing with the control box.

[SiC]

4 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Suggest it would be worth having a look at the brushes before messing with the control box.

Brushes were supposed to have been changed previously!

However it is definitely is charging:

 

[BeEP]

Brakes should be pretty good (I'd say excellent by 1960s standards!).  I slightly prefer the mk2/3 set-up with the swinging calipers and larger discs, but the mk1 type also work extremely well.  I notice yours has an aftermarket master cylinder so I wonder if the bore size is the same as original.  And I'm sure you've done this, but if the rear drums haven't been adjusted there will be excess pedal travel.

[SiC]

1 hour ago, BeEP said:

And I'm sure you've done this, but if the rear drums haven't been adjusted there will be excess pedal travel.

Yeah I've tripled checked this when it was up on stands.

Aftermarket master cylinder looks to be of the BMC Mini type. Could well be the wrong bore and also there could well be wear in the clevis pins.

Or it could be that I'm not used to a unassisted brake! First car that I've owned without servo assistance and also no synchro on first. Also not driven my MGB for a while. Admittedly those brakes are pretty effective.

[RobT]

After adjusting the rears on mine they became alarmingly shit, as in excessive pedal travel.  A bleeding session yesterday improved things loads, and the fluid that came out was very dirty.  I think I need to replace the rear OS wheel cylinder, as the pedal wasn't going down easily a few times with the nipple open.

[SiC]

6 hours ago, RobT said:

After adjusting the rears on mine they became alarmingly shit, as in excessive pedal travel.  A bleeding session yesterday improved things loads, and the fluid that came out was very dirty.  I think I need to replace the rear OS wheel cylinder, as the pedal wasn't going down easily a few times with the nipple open.

What are your hoses like? I clamped the front ones on mine when replacing the bleed nipples but I noticed that the fluid flowed a lot slower after releasing the clamp. I suspect that they collapsed internally. 

Didn't really matter as I replaced all my hoses. Almost certain the hoses on mine were original. 

Are you still on the steel lines? Mine were pretty crusty and I had the same problem with the MGB that they started to twist, then break when trying to undo the brake union. Depending what state they're in, it might be advisable to get replacement brake lines for the cylinder you replace. Btw cylinders are dirt cheap from Longbridge Motor Spares. Iirc £14 for two cylinders and £23 including the hard lines.  

My cylinders looked fairly fresh but for that price it made sense just replacing them anyway as prone to leaking. As you probably know, when they leak it ends up contaminating the brake shoes and ruining them. Also not so easily noticed until you realise there is brake fluid dribbling out the drum. 

[RobT]

Actually yeah you're right.  It's likely to be lines or hoses isn't it rather than a duff cylinder.  I think the hoses look fairly new, but so did the clutch hose and that one had collapsed internally.

Yes still on the steel lines.  I'll add it to the list after the clutch is done.  It's having a rest for a month or so whilst the Metro gets some use.

Are you near hitting the road with it then?

Edit:  sounds healthy enough in the video!

[SiC]

Been fiddling with the electrical system on this last night. I'm trying really hard to not throw in the towel on the dynamo and just fit an alternator. No wonder so many got converted to an alternator and the car industry changed over so quickly once they became affordable. Electromechanical units may be nice in that they are easily adjusted, but solid-state units don't go out of whack so easily like these do.

Essentially on this car, you have to have the engine running at above 2k before it's charging rather than discharging and even then it's only putting back around 2 amps. Above 3k it charging properly at around 10-15amps. So the dynamo itself is working just the control box isn't controlling properly.

One of the things I noticed was the contact for the cut in and out relay was bent far out. You adjust the cut out voltage by bending this but you could see it only cut in at high revs when on the car.


After a bit of fiddling on the bench and using an old coil to provide some load, I got the cut in to just about 13v (spec is 12.7v to 13.3v) when slowly winding up the volts. Cut out is at around 10.8v (spec is 9.5v to 11v). Higher cut out than I'd like but I was struggling to get a good mix from a decent cut in and out. Given the cut in is adjustable with a cam, I put that value as more important than the cut out which is adjustable by bending the contacts.


I need to check the operation of the voltage and current regulator parts of the control box. However these rely on adjusting the field windings to regulate the power the dynamo is generating. Something not easy to replicate on the bench as it's quite a dynamic thing to copy with a fair bit of interrelationship between the different elements of the circuit.

Then I turned my attention to the fusebox. There was an interesting mix of fuses in there. One was rated 35A on the casing but that must be continuous rather than peak, while being a slow blow going by how chunky the fuse link inside is.


As far as I'm aware, on this age car the standard pretty much was 17A continuous and 35A peak. The circuit for the fuse above fed the Horns and Main Beam. So quite high loads but should be within the capability of a 17A fuse.

Second fuse was a lovely Lucas branded original with a paper insert. Unfortunately one of the end caps twists and that is asking for trouble now I've removed the fuse. Any movement on those caps risks snapping the fragile fuse wire and at the tops where you can't see it.


The spare fuse was a Lucas 25A fuse that was partially filled up with either oil or old grease! All three were replaced with new 17A/35A replacements.

I cleaned up the contacts on the fuse box itself as best as I could with it mounted in the car.


Then gave it a wash as it was filthy from garage dust.

[PhilA]

Very nice! That is as accurate as those old boxes really get. 

Next take a left out of your road, and you know where there's that Indian place next to the car sales lot on the right? There's a little road that goes up there and heads to the top end of Wrington. Go bring it for a blezz up there and back. 

(If you get lost ask a local how to get up to Woolmer's and they will direct you there).

It's all fairly quiet back roads from the junction on up. Nice steep hill to clean some of the fluff out and get the brakes a bit of a workout.

 

Phil

[SiC]

Very nice! That is as accurate as those old boxes really get. 
Next take a left out of your road, and you know where there's that Indian place next to the car sales lot on the right? There's a little road that goes up there and heads to the top end of Wrington. Go bring it for a blezz up there and back. 
(If you get lost ask a local how to get up to Woolmer's and they will direct you there).
It's all fairly quiet back roads from the junction on up. Nice steep hill to clean some of the fluff out and get the brakes a bit of a workout.
 
Phil

Yeah that's my local route I've been taking the MGB and others for a spin. How I ended up taking pictures in Wrington with the MGB. Good bit of road to test a car. Big bump to test the travel of the suspension at the start. Then rough bumpy bits where the road is degrading. Finally a steep hill to test the brakes or load the engine going back up the hill.

It must have been a while since you've been around here. Indian has long become an Italian, the car lot has been empty for years and during lockdown been flattened to convert into houses!

Initially I'll be going around on the flats as if I have any issues, I can just leave the car and walk back home for parts/wait for recovery. Being flat, it makes it easier to push the car to the side.

Weather is looking nice and hot, while being dry today. Perfect weather for test runs as there is nothing more grim than it peeing it down/really cold while fixing a conked out car by the side of the road.

[PhilA]

Yeah, it's been a while since I've been there.

 

It is the case that I can talk about your house and how I remember when that was all fields...

[LightBulbFun]

very interesting stuff

 

the fuse stuff especially, as I first learnt of these 17/35A fuses when watching one of @richardthestag's good videos

and it made me wonder what exactly my car is rated for, it has 2 fuses a 25A and 35A, and I did always think the 35A one especially was somewhat over rated given the entire Dynastart unit my car has is only rated to output a max of 240W (20A)

but if the fuse is actually supposed to be 17/35A (and whatever the 25A equivalent of that is) then that makes much more sense to me given the max rating of the Dynastart and would make sense given the age of the car and its lucas electrics 

but it then makes me wonder if @dollywobbler and @Zelandeth are aware of this? and also was wondering if one wanted to replace the fusebox with a modern blade type, are there any modern equivalent fuses?

[Slowsilver]

I wondered the same about the later blade fuses. I knew that the old glass ones had two ratings, one for short peak and one for continuous current, but the blade type only show one rating, presumably the continuous one. Since I guess they still rely on the heat generated by the current through them it simply depends on how long they take to heat up to their melting point, which will presumably be a combination of the magnitude of the current and the time for which it occurs, thus allowing for a short spike of higher current when something is switched on or off, particularly if the load is inductive, then a steady current draw thereafter.
 

[SiC]

Blade fuses show continuous rating. Don't show peak no doubt to prevent confusion. 

Blow rating isn't a simple set current. Depends on how much for how long. 

Datasheet for a large (hehe) manufacturer of blade fuses:

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/passenger-car-and-commercial-vehicle/blade-fuses/littelfuse_mini_datasheet.pdf

Notice the curves on the table. Large amounts of overcurrent can be absorbed without blowing the fuse. This isn't just a blade fuse thing, it's a current rating thing generally. No matter blade, breaker or even PTC.

[BeEP]

Need to find your MGB pictures in Wrington now! I lived there when I was born (in the house adjoining the URC - which was then the manse) until moving to Long Ashton at the ripe old age of three.  When I was living back in Bristol in the 90s/00s I sometimes took trips back there, always down the A370 and over Wrington Hill from Cleeve (which I assume is the road PhilA is referring to).  Always memorable to me for bluebells in spring.

[SiC]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 somewhat over rated given the entire Dynastart unit my car has is only rated to output a max of 240W (20A)

I shouldn't really responding as you know for well that you should be keeping Invac*r stuff in your own Silo/thread to keep forum harmony. 

Anyway, generally speaking of pre-80s British cars they are very under fused. I'd be surprised if the Dynastarter is even a fused circuit. Stuff critical for safe running didn't tend to be fused. So stuff like dipped/side lights, ignition and fuel pump. Then one fuse for always on, one fuse for switched. 

Wiring diagram for the ADO16 for your persual:

section_lb_wiring_diagrams.pdf

Unofficial but clearer to read MGB wiring diagrams:

http://www.advanceautowire.com/mgb.pdf

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Blade fuses show continuous rating. Don't show peak no doubt to prevent confusion. 

Blow rating isn't a simple set current. Depends on how much for how long. 

Datasheet for a large (hehe) manufacturer of blade fuses:

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/passenger-car-and-commercial-vehicle/blade-fuses/littelfuse_mini_datasheet.pdf

Notice the curves on the table. Large amounts of overcurrent can be absorbed without blowing the fuse. This isn't just a blade fuse thing, it's a current rating thing generally. No matter blade, breaker or even PTC.

yeah, i know everything has a curve, but i was curious exactly how modern blade type fuses lines up with the old type  (ie say you wanted to replace an old style 35A fuse with a modern blade type would you use a 17A or as close as possible to it blade type fuse? since thats what the old style 35A fuses where rated continuously for, or would you use a higher rated blade fuse since maybe (making things up here) under the same conditions a 17A blade fuse only has a "peak" current rating of say 25A instead of 35A)

I know for example modern blade type fuse is smaller so would have less thermal mass which may/will effect things like its blow characteristics 

1 hour ago, SiC said:

I shouldn't really responding as you know for well that you should be keeping Invac*r stuff in your own Silo/thread to keep forum harmony. 

LOL, I did think about dragging it over to my thread but it was a more general question about fuses applicable to pretty much everything lucas

and besides I already brought up this exact question in my thread when I first found out about them and no one responded 

On 11/04/2020 at 01:04, LightBulbFun said:

so I was watching @richardthestag part 12 on sandy the landy the other day, and he was talking about fuses how the Land rover has 35A fuses that are 35A blow but only 17A continuous, but that someone had fitted an actual 35A continuous fuse  

and it got me thinking that I never really thought about the blow characteristics of automotive fuses and it turned my attention to the fuses in the Model 70 (naturally LOL)

specifically the 2 mounted on the bulkhead in the cabin theres a 35A main fuse and a 25A fuse for auxiliary circuits

and it made me wonder if the 35A (and the 25A) fuse is meant to be of the Lucas 35A blow 17A continuous type?

as doing some maths 35A at 12V is 420W which is way higher then what the dynastart is rated for (240W) however doing the maths at 17A gives me 204W which sounds much more reasonable so I do wonder...

and the final reason I bring this up is because im pretty sure @dollywobbler has a big beefy 35A continuous fuse fitted to TWC, like the incorrect type removed from sandy the landy and I just wanted to go over this to make sure TWC and other Model 70's have the correct fuses fitted!

for those wondering this is what the workshop manual has to say on fuses etc

 

 

as a side note it makes me wonder what the blow characteristics of modern blade type automotive fuses are?

so I figured id just stay in this thread

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Anyway, generally speaking of pre-80s British cars they are very under fused. I'd be surprised if the Dynastarter is even a fused circuit. Stuff critical for safe running didn't tend to be fused. So stuff like dipped/side lights, ignition and fuel pump. Then one fuse for always on, one fuse for switched. 

Wiring diagram for the ADO16 for your persual:

section_lb_wiring_diagrams.pdf 1.6 MB · 0 downloads

Unofficial but clearer to read MGB wiring diagrams:

http://www.advanceautowire.com/mgb.pdf

surprisingly it is actually fused or at least part of it is, the charging line according to the workshop manual

although I dont know its rating for sure as but in first revision its someone scribbled out what looks like 12A scrawled in 25A, (and then someone put a giant X across that first wiring digram, I assume once the above revised one came out)

(looking at the two diagrams, it looks like in the first digram they also got the fuse on the wrong wire and someone manually corrected it)

[PhilA]

2 hours ago, BeEP said:

Need to find your MGB pictures in Wrington now! I lived there when I was born (in the house adjoining the URC - which was then the manse) until moving to Long Ashton at the ripe old age of three.  When I was living back in Bristol in the 90s/00s I sometimes took trips back there, always down the A370 and over Wrington Hill from Cleeve (which I assume is the road PhilA is referring to).  Always memorable to me for bluebells in spring.

Sure is, pretty route to take at that time of year.

 

Re the video of you cranking it over- it starts well. My old man's Sprite would fire on the third stroke every time. You trump me, it fired on the second!

Sounds nice, too. Got yourself a good little car there.

[SiC]

Just come back from a jolly little drive. Next time I'll try to remember bringing my phone mount so you can come along for the ride too. Not far but I didn't get out until late as no sleepy in this heat. Didn't watch the gauges but I haven't seen the temp gauge move from this point once warmed up. I'm not confident on the fuel gauge accuracy. I've had it run out when it was reading half way between empty and quarter. Did put another 10l in from a can to make sure it had plenty.


Experience of hydrolastic was a bit odd. Felt like riding on a waterbed. Steering is a bit clonky. I wouldn't be surprised if it's those bushes as BeEP has previously mentioned. Also need to get some new grease nipples so I can get a decent amount of gunk into the ball joints. Think also the front pads aren't moving too freely. I can hear rubbing on the front end when rolling along. I've mentioned previously on here that the pads were biting and holding the front wheels despite no pressure on the pedal.

It brought a lot of happy faces on a bunch of old biddies faces as they (literally) rolled into the church. Someone else in a parsing Zarifa B gave a lovely complement as I passed after he pulled in.

This little car seems to bring a lot of happiness to face of the over 50s.

I'll try going out possibly later tonight when the manic holiday traffic around here dies down a bit.

[Slowsilver]

Don't know about the ADO16 steering rack but guess it is similar to a Maxi one which also has the worn nearside bush causing a clonk problem. My Maxi did this and I was going to buy a reconditioned one from the club spares man but he said that he had stopped selling them because the new bushes they used were some sort of crappy plastic which only lasted about 5 minutes and he had had several returned. So I decided to try and fix it myself. I actually bought another second-hand rack with this problem cheaply to practice on. The manual says that you need special tools to dismantle the rack but I managed it with a vice and a large Stiltson wrench.  The driver's side of the rack is supported by the pinion with proper bearings and doesn't seem to be a problem, but the original bush on the passenger side is a weird arrangment of an outer metal ring with a cross-section in the shape of a shallow squared-off 'U' filled with some sort of brittle grey bearing material. This breaks up after a while into random lumps, causing the play between the rack shaft and the outer casing. I took both of these bits to a local one-man engineering company who turned up a phosphor-bronze bush that was an interference fit into the inside of the outer casing on  the outside and a nice tight sliding fit over the rack shaft on the inside. The rack runs in oil so it gets nicely lubricated when in use. Rack then reassembled with new gaiters and track rod ends, refilled with fresh oil and refitted. This was done several months ago and so far no more clonking. Fingers crossed!

[BeEP]

1 hour ago, Slowsilver said:

Don't know about the ADO16 steering rack but guess it is similar to a Maxi one which also has the worn nearside bush causing a clonk problem. My Maxi did this and I was going to buy a reconditioned one from the club spares man but he said that he had stopped selling them because the new bushes they used were some sort of crappy plastic which only lasted about 5 minutes and he had had several returned. So I decided to try and fix it myself. I actually bought another second-hand rack with this problem cheaply to practice on. The manual says that you need special tools to dismantle the rack but I managed it with a vice and a large Stiltson wrench.  The driver's side of the rack is supported by the pinion with proper bearings and doesn't seem to be a problem, but the original bush on the passenger side is a weird arrangment of an outer metal ring with a cross-section in the shape of a shallow squared-off 'U' filled with some sort of brittle grey bearing material. This breaks up after a while into random lumps, causing the play between the rack shaft and the outer casing. I took both of these bits to a local one-man engineering company who turned up a phosphor-bronze bush that was an interference fit into the inside of the outer casing on  the outside and a nice tight sliding fit over the rack shaft on the inside. The rack runs in oil so it gets nicely lubricated when in use. Rack then reassembled with new gaiters and track rod ends, refilled with fresh oil and refitted. This was done several months ago and so far no more clonking. Fingers crossed!

Yes, ADO16 and Allegro suffer in exactly the same way.  Allegro club spares chap is doing much the same as you suggest, rebuilding using a bronze bush;  I've got one fitted to my Allegro estate.  And I bought one of the dodgy reconditioned Maxi ones from Ernie about 10 years ago for the cable-changer I had at the time!

[SiC]

This had a reconditioned rack fitted a gear or two ago from Longbridge motorspares. Presumably it's not a safety issue, just an annoyance?

I think I'll do the bushes on the column though as they don't look too tricky or much of a pain. Parts aren't frightfully expensive either. 

[BeEP]

58 minutes ago, SiC said:

Presumably it's not a safety issue, just an annoyance?

I think I'll do the bushes on the column though as they don't look too tricky or much of a pain.

Exactly that, just an annoyance.  And yes, column bushes are straightforward (although top plastic one can put up a bit of a fight to remove) and well worth doing.  Which reminds me, I need to get on and buy a lower (felt) one for my white 1300.