bangernomics, where do you draw the line?

[Jerzy Woking]

I used to do bangernomics with motorbikes. Buy something that sold fairly well but was never seen as desireable (such as the Suzuki GS500 or Kawasaki ER5It) then run it with nothing more than an oil change every 5,000 miles, until it needed tyres and chain and sprockets. Then sell it on at not much of a loss, then buy another.

 

Not possible now, as even completely shagged bikes with an MOT start at £500. My last two GS500's cost £150 in total, ran them for 5,000 miles before I got bored shit less with them (120 miles a day, all on motorways) soon takes the joy out of riding a bike.

[Justin Case]

But that isn't bangernomics, and a lot of people would not have £7k odd (a guess) to buy a newer car with, all you are doing is buying a lightly used car, I would fully expect a 3-5 year old car to be totally reliable and cost very little apart from tyres and servicing.

Bangernomics is more a way of life than a set of rules. The aim is to have trouble-free motoring in the most cost-effective way, and having a newish simple car is quite a good way of achieving this. There are plenty of 3-5 year old cars that are likely to give years of reliable service and I can name at least half a dozen that do from the experience of people that I know. The one thing that they have in common is that they are Japanese or Korean (even if they are screwed together in other lands) have unstressed NA petrol engines (120 bp from a 2 litre Mazda 3 anyone ) and a minimum of electronic gizmos.

 

It doesn't take much research to find out those cars with a bad reputation even after only 3-5 years of use. Small highly stressed engines in hefty cars (see Fiery Fords thread), twin clutch semi-automatics. DPFs, DMFs, common-rail diesels are all bad news, but people continue to buy or PCP them regardless. This is the opposite of bangernomics,  but don't think all modern cars are like this.

[sierraman]

You are no good being anti new stuff though. It wasn’t that long ago everyone said avoid fuel injection it’s complicated, avoid catalytic converters expensive to replace, avoid modern cars with DMFs etc. If all those simple Vauxhall Chevettes etc were so good why are they nearly extinct? Old cars are great when they’re a hobby but like he’ll would you go back to exhausts lasting 2 winters, welding at 6 years old and engines that stood absolutely no chance of seeing 100k out.

 

Cars went wrong then and they go wrong now so there’s no change there.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Martin Buckley once said something to the effect of "don't buy yourself work". 

 

 

That's all he ever does though!

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I've just bought a shit 2005 320d Touring, last of the E46 horrors. However:

 

It's got leather

It has two working keys

It's not rotten

It should* do 50 mpg

It has a factory CD player, AC and cruise. 

It has no warning lights

It was £290

 

It was £290 because it has no MOT, fucked brakes all round, fucked rear dampers, fucked battery.

 

I fixed all of this yesterday, total cost £0. I don't put a price on my time.

 

I had two new front discs given to me FOC last year (but no E46 at the time), some Eicher pads in a box - Christ knows where they came from. A good Bosch battery that was 'fucked' but just needed a trickle charge and two secondhand rear dampers with top mounts. A hard day of swearing and it's ready for an MOT although the rear brakes pipes have been 'cleaned and greased'* by myself. 

The AC doesn't work, just needs a regas/fuse m8. 

 

They are fucking horrible things (it's an E46) but if it does 6 months before the turbo/DMF/other diesel drama I'll be content. After which it will be given a valet and fired back into Copart from whence it came. Emotional attachment - none whatsoever. Just a tool for a job, a car equivalent of old Molegrips.

[cort16]

There’s a y reg punto sitting st the garage at my lockup . Never had a vehicle looked more like scrap /abandoned vehicle .

2 flat tyres, half the paint missing from the bumpers , dents and bumps all over and a seized engine .

 

The guy calls up and says can you fix it for 800 quid? If so just go ahead!

 

You can buy nice ones with full mots for 500.

[anonymous user]

That's all he ever does though!

Yes but it's then something he can write about for his real work, for which he gets paid, so he can keep up the good work

[Angrydicky]

The problem for me is that I have no desire to drive something I don't like. And I don't like that many cars in the grand scheme of things. So those I do like enough to buy, I want to keep going as long as possible. And then when they break, I fix them. That means spending time and money on them.

I'm also a sentimental bastard and feel sorry for cars. I've never scrapped a car despite owning loads, and don't intend to start now. 

 

I suck at 'bangernomics'.

[GeordieInExile]

I work off the following rule of thumb. If a repair is going to cost more than half of what the value of the car is worth then it’s time for it to go. Longest I’ve had a car is 2 years and it was only 6 years old when I got it so I put up with its faults more.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My 9-5 needed an alternator when I bought it and that cost more than half the purchase price (including labour)...

[Lacquer Peel]

You are no good being anti new stuff though. It wasn’t that long ago everyone said avoid fuel injection it’s complicated, avoid catalytic converters expensive to replace, avoid modern cars with DMFs etc. If all those simple Vauxhall Chevettes etc were so good why are they nearly extinct? Old cars are great when they’re a hobby but like he’ll would you go back to exhausts lasting 2 winters, welding at 6 years old and engines that stood absolutely no chance of seeing 100k out.

 

Cars went wrong then and they go wrong now so there’s no change there.

There was a period from roughly the late 80s to the late 90s when many if not all cars were rust resistant, reliable and easy to maintain for a long life.

This era of cars benefitted from fuel injection, improved design and production techniques and straightforward mechanicals.

 

The post-2000 designed era is afflicted with dual mass flywheels, complicated emissions equipment, electronics and the associated modules, coded parts and so on, with cheapened components dealing with masses of fuel pressure and torque to overcome the growing weight of cars.

Instead of scrapping a Chevette because it's rusty and the engine is burning oil you're scrapping an Insignia because the gearbox has eaten itself or it needs new fuel injection component, maybe at the same age as that Chevette while so many MK3 Cavaliers are still dodging the scrapyard.

[sierraman]

I don’t know how many Mk3 Cavaliers there are round your way but I haven’t seen one for some time.

[New POD]

I don’t know how many Mk3 Cavaliers there are round your way but I haven’t seen one for some time.

We traded a perfectly mediocre one in for a Bini. It never was never taxed again.

It would have made a perfect daily driver for someone. But I just couldn't be arsed at the time.

 

3 years later prices started climbing

[Lacquer Peel]

I think 25 year old Insignias will be very rare while Cavaliers are still reasonably common.

It's usually apathy that sees cars of this era scrapped rather than some financially insurmountable problem

[Bren]

A lot depends on how much you like the car. It's why you sometimes buy a car for hundreds that has had thousands spent on it - because somebody cared about it.

[sierraman]

Yeah those left seem to command quite a lot of money.

[theorganist]

The problem for me is that I have no desire to drive something I don't like. And I don't like that many cars in the grand scheme of things. So those I do like enough to buy, I want to keep going as long as possible. And then when they break, I fix them. That means spending time and money on them.

I'm also a sentimental bastard and feel sorry for cars. I've never scrapped a car despite owning loads, and don't intend to start now. 

 

I suck at 'bangernomics'.

This pretty much is where I cam coming from. I too have never directly scrapped a car (two I part exchanged did go to the scrapyard but that wasn't my decision), if it needs too much doing to it for me to justify spending the money (it is usually a lack of money at the time) then I sell it on cheap hoping someone else will do the work and keep it going. The Mercedes for example, I was planning on selling it and getting something more economical so when the electrics went haywire it was the excuse I needed (it was never really 'me' as lovely as it was) it has been a much cheaper fix for the new owner than it would have been for me as I haven't the knowledge, patience or the time to start investigating electrical faults.

[forddeliveryboy]

There was a period from roughly the late 80s to the late 90s when many if not all cars were rust resistant, reliable and easy to maintain for a long life.

This era of cars benefitted from fuel injection, improved design and production techniques and straightforward mechanicals.

The post-2000 designed era is afflicted with dual mass flywheels, complicated emissions equipment, electronics and the associated modules, coded parts and so on, with cheapened components dealing with masses of fuel pressure and torque to overcome the growing weight of cars.

 

Nail on head. 90s stuff is at the bottom of the price curve, why would any sane person spend 20x on a mundane, everyday machine unless its fuel is 15p a litre (0.1KwH) with few of the maintenance costs people have been trained to accept?

 

For many, 2000- cars were a revelation in handling, ergonomics, quality and ease of use, which a couple of makers had been offering since the 70s in a far purer form - but the many follow their leaders like sheep.

 

Except the more obsessional types and high earners, motor cars as we know them have probably, for the interested and capable, had their best days in much of the UK - for most they're now a wallet-draining necessity much more than an indulgence to polish on a Sunday morning giving massive freedoms - as so many young people are demonstrating very clearly by not even wanting their own car.

 

Personal transport is close to a tipping point in its evolution, overweight old-fashioned machines bearing vibrating repeat-explosion engines are nearing the end of their dominance and just as the once-simple efficient carburettor grew into something overcomplex, awkward to diagnose and expensive to repair so the ICE car has followed it.

 

At some point I'll bail out into an EV for most journeys - no oil changes, fuel filters, cambelts, clutches and flywheels, injectors and fuel pumps and for perhaps another decade or so, no carefully engineered sub-standard quality, in the main. In the meantime, it's something from the previous century.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Nail on head. 90s stuff is at the bottom of the price curve, why would any sane person spend 20x on a mundane, everyday machine unless its fuel is 15p a litre (KwH) with few of the maintenance costs people have been trained to accept?

 

For many, 2000- cars were a revelation in handling, ergonomics, quality and ease of use, which a couple of makers had been offering since the 70s in a far purer form - but the many follow their leaders like sheep.

 

Except the more obsessional types and high earners, motor cars as we know them have probably, for the interested and capable, had their best days in much of the UK - for most they're now a wallet-draining necessity much more than an indulgence to polish on a Sunday morning giving massive freedoms - as so many young people are demonstrating very clearly by not even wanting their own car.

 

Personal transport is close to a tipping point in its evolution, overweight old-fashioned machines bearing vibrating repeat-explosion engines are nearing the end of their dominance and just as the once-simple efficient carburettor grew into something overcomplex, awkward to diagnose and expensive to repair so the ICE car has followed it.

 

At some point I'll bail out into an EV for most journeys - no oil changes, fuel filters, cambelts, clutches and flywheels, injectors and fuel pumps and for perhaps another decade or so, no carefully engineered sub-standard quality, in the main. In the meantime, it's something from the previous century.

 

 

 

You also wonder what's going to happen to some marques. In 50 years, what will be the difference between a Mercedes EV and a Kia EV? In short, fuck all apart from the Kia being cheaper and more reliable. Will folk still be sucked into brand awareness and badge snobbery? I suspect they will to an extent but that will only further expose their vain stupidity. 

 

Right now I'm trying to work out what Jaguar are all about. I mean, when was the last time they built something utterly amazing?

[bub2006]

I've come to the conclusion if a car is worth it to you then spend whatever is s necessary. I've thrown away cars because of niggly issues and came to the conclusion it's better the devil you know. You could say spending 400 quid on a banger is pointless but instead use that 400 to buy another motor. What's to say the gearbox won't shit out on the way home?

[forddeliveryboy]

You also wonder what's going to happen to some marques. In 50 years, what will be the difference between a Mercedes EV and a Kia EV? In short, fuck all apart from the Kia being cheaper and more reliable. Will folk still be sucked into brand awareness and badge snobbery? I suspect they will to an extent but that will only further expose their vain stupidity.

 

Right now I'm trying to work out what Jaguar are all about. I mean, when was the last time they built something utterly amazing?

 

Yes, totally. We're getting closer to that Kodak moment, give it twenty years and unless the quality brands pull something spectacular out of the hat, their names will be a trim version on something designed and built in Korea (high quality) or China (mass market).

 

BMW's i3 indicates they're more switched on than the rest, even if it hasn't been quite the sales success they'd hoped for.

 

I mentioned on the EV thread that whereas an engine has for decades been the heart of the car for many enthusiasts, with all EVs having more than enough go with the smoothness beyond JagV12 levels, a new USP could yet emerge.

 

What are premium brands trying to improve which the rest aren't yet bothering with? Suspension. Beyond these improvements, it hasn't changed much since the horse drawn carriage in that there's a bit of tempered spring metal jammed between the axles and body to try and soak up bumps, with bits of rubber to fine tune. With silent engines and lots more torque it's possible suspension which works beautifully, allows roundabouts to be taken without heel yet vanishes humps and bumps could define the new must-have.

[Justin Case]

Personal transport is close to a tipping point in its evolution, overweight old-fashioned machines bearing vibrating repeat-explosion engines are nearing the end of their dominance and just as the once-simple efficient carburettor grew into something overcomplex, awkward to diagnose and expensive to repair so the ICE car has followed it.

 

At some point I'll bail out into an EV for most journeys - no oil changes, fuel filters, cambelts, clutches and flywheels, injectors and fuel pumps and for perhaps another decade or so, no carefully engineered sub-standard quality, in the main. In the meantime, it's something from the previous century.

This could be the beginning of a new era in bangernomics Early Honda Civic IMAs are already dipping towards the £1k mark and the first Priuses are not far behind. I'm sure that back street garages will soon have developed the ability to change a worn-out battery pack for a reconditioned one without electrocuting themselves as easily as they can change an alternator now. You won't even have to worry if you have a Renault EV, some bright spark (pun intended ) will have found a source of batteries to sell on, so you won't have to rent one.

 

Autoshite will still be alive and well. For bonus shite points the Civic IMA is only available as a saloon, and I am looking forward to the first thread telling us how someone has replaced the dead battery pack with one made from the batteries of a thousand Poundland torches and  a roll of sellotape

[forddeliveryboy]

This could be the beginning of a new era in bangernomics

Autoshite will still be alive and well. For bonus shite points the Civic IMA is only available as a saloon, and I await the first thread telling us how someone has replaced the dead battery pack with one made from the batteries of a thousand Poundland torches and a roll of sellotape

 

Look what happened to the camera when the digital revolution swept the market, the move to battery electric propulsion is likely to be as disruptive to the car market. Today, almost everyone has a camera but they're just a tiny bit of hardware and an app on a 'phone' and what was once the preserve of special effects labs is there with bells and whistles on. The movie camera has combined with the stills camera too, for the 99%.

 

The LG tablet I use for 80% of online work can take highish res movie, or load from another source, I can then edit it to a good standard and publish within half a day or less. This would have needed tens thousands of pounds of equipment and a raft of higher levels of skill not so long ago. Ok, so the end result is distinguishable from 16 or 35mm celluloid and a pro lab, but it's different, not inferior and infinitely less hassle for a fraction of the cost.

 

Speed has been the goal for most car makers almsot from the start, sustained high speeds are increasingly impossible (congestion/cameras) so acceleration has become the focus - something all EVs can achieve rapidly. Being able to move around has long since lost all the magic there once was and the car has grown increasingly like a study room, with high quality music and fittings, connectivity and comfort rapidly becoming must-haves. Once electronic guidance becomes the norm in heavy traffic, then just as the phone has changed into something which is a media device with a phone app, increasingly the car may well move away from being primarily a transport tool unless it's an autonomous public taxi.

 

This extra room outside the (increasingly cramped) house/flat may be turned into the main office and communication centre for the many who don't need to commute anymore, a source of power for the house for when grid electricity prices are very high in the 24hr cycle and even the virtual reality pod.

 

For commuting or travel alone, I imagine some lightweight, possibly even tandem seater high efficiency machine with minimal frictional drag. These will be what 'petrolheads' in the latter half of this century will personalise and improve.

 

'Cars' could be so cheap and reliable, there'll be no sense in finding something old and needing repair. Alternatively, if Ellen MacArthur's Circular Economy sees the light of day, our practical skills set could be used like never before. Who knows?

[sierraman]

You’ve described what sounds like the most depressing boring place on earth.

[forddeliveryboy]

You’ve described what sounds like the most depressing boring place on earth.

 

To our mindsets yes, but I wonder if someone had half-imagined today's world of transport to the late-Victorian fellow who travelled regularly - able to walk or cycle a short distance to the railway station, sit in great comfort and have a chat with others/read the paper or play cards while speeding through countryside and town, arriving in his workplace relaxed.

Someone who firmly believed personal carriages and carts were either for the landed gentry who refused to mix with the workers, even 1st class ones, or for the agriculatural worker or tag and bone man.

 

Try and explain hour-long queues in small metal boxes, garage bills, having to fuel his transport with a taxed income where the fuel was taxed 70%, pay for replacement vehicles every few years, insure it, pay more tax to use it on a road, fines for travelling marginally above speed limits irrespective of conditions, have the government track his every movement and store them for years and have to dodge wayward trucks, cyclists and pedestrians. Or the thunder of overloaded HGVs right outside his window, vans of livestock rustlers able to be 50 miles away within the hour, of masses of car-delivered tourists blocking roads, paths and gateways, pointing cameras into his back garden, or living in communities where you barely recognised your neighbours. Where because of rapid personal transport, the Police would be tens of miles away, a hospital even further away and local roads so busy children would have little freedom to wander.

 

I doubt he'd have been thrilled with the idea it could give him 'freedom', rather that most would have asked if there was any way round having to have a car, a lot like so many young ones are today.

[sierraman]

It still sounds wank.

[Kiltox]

Try and explain Southern fucking Rail to the same and they’d section you

[hairnet]

You also wonder what's going to happen to some marques. In 50 years, what will be the difference between a Mercedes EV and a Kia EV? In short, fuck all apart from the Kia being cheaper and more reliable. Will folk still be sucked into brand awareness and badge snobbery? I suspect they will to an extent but that will only further expose their vain stupidity. 

 

Right now I'm trying to work out what Jaguar are all about. I mean, when was the last time they built something utterly amazing?

1955

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

1955

 

 

I've said it before, but Jaguar should have launched this in 2010 or whenever it arrived. It's a great looking car and with a few trad Jag touches - and electric power - it would have put BMW, Audi and Merc back into the dark ages. It would be insanely desirable.

 

But they are building 2.0 diesel XF's though, so that's alright then. 

 

Bangernomics. We all know where we stand on that, personal choice etc.

 

 

[cort16]

To be fair jaguar are the first to market with a decent Tesla competitor . From what I’ve heard the I pace is pretty great , true 250 mile range and decent feeling build quality , which what ever the Tesla fanboys say seems to be more then Tesla can achieve .

[forddeliveryboy]

No matter how disciplined and thorough the standards of tertiary education in Britain are there's nothing to beat the hands-on, trial and error approach when it comes to designing something as complex as the motor car. Not complex as in too many sensors, but complex as in making something lastingly highly desirable which can make good money.

 

The Chinese have made mistake on mistake and still aren't where we once were, but they're acquiring knowledge in a far broader way than us when it comes to engineering vehicles. They're experimenting far more, their minds are wide open to new possibilities in the way any recently-successful nation's are and the production facilities are all to hand.

 

I reckon we're at a big disadvantage when it comes to the chances of coming up with designs which the whole world wants, all we can do is take the advice of expert economists and steadily move 'up-market' while out-sourcing most mass production to the Far East.

 

Why are Gordon Murray's small car designs so sidelined when that European three wheeled bubble-car EV has attracted so much attention?