invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[egg]

Streetmap of West Ken, suggests it hasn't actually changed that much! (side Road is Baron's Court road)

[LightBulbFun]

speaking of good Photos! think its time I post this lovely photograph that @AdgeCutler sent me a couple weeks back that I have been sitting on,

as today, the 31st of March 2023, marks 20 years since the "official" end* of the Invacar scheme, which ended on the 31st of March 2003! at which point in time 30+ Model 70's a couple Tippen Delta's 1 Model 64 1 Model 57! and even reportedly 1 Stanley Argson! where still in Ministry service!

(*like any well planned government scheme, the last Invacar was not actually finally withdrawn from Ministry service until the 14th of October 2004! but the 31st of March 2003 was the major end dead line and everything after that was special cases)

 

who would have thought 20 years later, there still would be a determined band of  people keeping a small gaggle of them on the road, and some even in daily use still  , I mean who thought any would still be left at all, after the dogged determination of the ministry to get rid of them all, even 2 Villiers machine still ride these mean streets!

it makes me wonder of all the survivors out there, how many of their ministry users are still around, I wonder how they would react if they knew their old Invacar still survives 50~ years after it was made and first issued , and against all the odds after being told 20 years ago it it was going to be obliterated from existence! 

such a shame the V888 scheme has been nerfed! 

[barrett]

4 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

indeed seen it before, still a good photo always https://flic.kr/p/9diKJh  its a Stanley Mk7, only one known to still survive (I never was able to find that Bow(?) police station photograph sadly) 

 

 

A Harper, surely, unless I'm missing something?

[LightBulbFun]

27 minutes ago, barrett said:

A Harper, surely, unless I'm missing something?

Nah its a Stanley Mk7 (Model 65 in Ministry speak)  

 

here is a rearward shot of Harper Mk6 for comparison  

[Zelandeth]

On 3/30/2023 at 9:31 AM, brummiejon said:

Hiya…. thanks for your kind offer, I live in Whitstable, Kent but would be prepared to arrange to bring it to you..

I'll drop you a PM and see if we can work something out.  

Battery chargers of that era are very simple.  Mains in, fuse, big transformer, power switch, rectifier, sometimes a charge rate switch & ballast resistor, fuse, output.  95% of the spaghetti on your one looks to be entirely due to the overcomplicated mains voltage selection control.  

[LightBulbFun]

and now for something a bit different! recently this was found with a cache of Invacar parts, its a Jiffy bag, but with a Model 70 Ministry stock/part number on it you may

and inside is a box with a Ministry store number on it also, a mysterious one

and inside the box, is this! the 4th type of fuel gauge used in the Model 70!

the very rare digital* dash option! 

[egg]

Cool, what next a talking dashboard saying 'passenger carrying is forbidden'!

[barrett]

23 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Nah its a Stanley Mk7 (Model 65 in Ministry speak)  

 

here is a rearward shot of Harper Mk6 for comparison  

I don't think I even knew there was such a thing. Have you got more Stanley Mk7 photos?

[LightBulbFun]

45 minutes ago, barrett said:

I don't think I even knew there was such a thing. Have you got more Stanley Mk7 photos?

I think this these are the  best forward shots I have of one sadly (unless I pinch one of Stuarts photos! LOL)

and a harper Mk6 frontal shot for Comparison  

[Remspoor]

This is on Twatter.

And it is?

Also whilst trying to find out what it is I found this website, which maybe of interest.

The Argson-Stanley engineering company

[brummiejon]

6 minutes ago, Remspoor said:

This is on Twatter.

And it is?

Also whilst trying to find out what it is I found this website, which maybe of interest.

The Argson-Stanley engineering company

Wow…. Sporty… 😊

[LightBulbFun]

7 minutes ago, Remspoor said:

This is on Twatter.

And it is?

Also whilst trying to find out what it is I found this website, which maybe of interest.

The Argson-Stanley engineering company

thats an Allard Clipper, nothing to do with Invalid vehicles im afraid!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allard_Clipper

[barrett]

Well I must say I'm a little disappointed in myself here. I don't think I knew there was such a thing as a Stanley Mk7. What's the story here? Looks almost identical to the Harper, baring minor detail differences. Was this a bit like the AC/Invacar deal with one basic design produced by two companies? I remember looking for some evidence of the Stanley works in Egham but that whole area has been totally obliterated. I think there might be a housing etate with a 'Stanley Road' or something as a nod, but no physical evidence. The Leacroft works have gone too, but until very recently the footprint of the site seemed to remain, but I think it's having lots of flats built all over it now.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, barrett said:

Well I must say I'm a little disappointed in myself here. I don't think I knew there was such a thing as a Stanley Mk7. What's the story here? Looks almost identical to the Harper, baring minor detail differences. Was this a bit like the AC/Invacar deal with one basic design produced by two companies?

will admit, Never thought I would of all people, be "sitting on" a car that Barrett did not know about! much less something Haprer related!  

 

but no same company, different machines  

 the line of progression was the Stanley Argson, Stanley Argson Deluxe, Stanley Harper Mk1 Stanley Harper Mk4 Stanley Harper Mk6, 6A 6B, Stanley Mk7 and finally Mk 7A, production finally ending in 1965 or there abouts (not sure how that end date has been verified, still need to chase that one up)

all of those where produced at the Stanley works in Egham, except the Mk7 which was produced somewhere in Exeter Devon,  (note the change from Surrey registration to Devon registration)

the 1965  Mk7A above with its head lamp falling out, its chassis plate states "The Stanley Invalid's Car" *then underneath* "Manufactured  by the Stanley Engineering Co Ltd Exeter Devon Eng"

sometime in 1954 a company called Harper, took over the Stanley works or thats what written, but I have personally noticed it always remained Stanley Engineering Co Ltd on the vehicles, so im not sure if Haprer dropped its own name in favour of the more well known Stanley name (perhaps something to do with retaining government contracts?)

or Stanley was just operated under Harper but as a separate company still?

because thats the thing it was always "Stanley Harper Invalid car"  Harper was more put forward as the vehicles marketing name then as the company name if that makes sense

in the same way you had the AC Acedes Invalid car, AC was the Maker, Acedes the marketing name, and Invalid car was the descriptor

Harper was never used as the manufacturers name AFAIK in this case?

 

I have noticed things get very wishy washy around this general point of Stanley and Harper and all that , because also for example a lot of sources state that it was C B Harper, but I have also heard/seen C E Harper mentioned

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/C._E._Harper_Aircraft_Co

its also mentioned here that even before Harper took over Stanley, it seems like Stanley was already under the control of another company Metropole Industries

its all a bit strange! and theres a lot of things regarding Stanley and Harper that I have never been able to get a straight answer on sadly

not helped by the fact that so few machine survive, and even so few pictures are out there! 

 

 

anyways back to the Mk7! it was an evolution of the Mk6, so that Stanley had a machine that would meet the ministries latest unified standard specifications of the time, and thus continue to get a contract to supply machines

these standard specifications are what also what gave rise to the Invacar Mk12A and so forth, even long before the Model 70 came about the Ministry had a standard set of specifications that a manufacturers machine had to meet if they where to be given a contract, the Ministry did this, both as a means to gradually improve the machines it was issuing but also in some regards help reduce parts holding, hence why they are all Villiers 11E machines, and this is also how all machines came to be on 12 inch wheels for example (hence why you often hear me state Ministry Standard specification 12 inch wheels when talking about them) these standard specifications  is why for example the Invacar Mk12 suddenly gained 7 inch head lamps, with the Mk12D for example, and the Mk12 and Fibreglass Acedes gained Parallelogram front suspension leading to the Invacar Mk12E and AC Acedes Mk15 respectively,

anyways before I go off on another tangent, the main changes with the Mk7 was a taller roof with solid sliding glass side windows and the Villiers 11E engine (Im pretty sure the Mk6 was always a 9E machine but something that I still need to verify) and for this generation of machine they just dropped the Harper marketing name and it was just known as the Stanley Mk7,  and of course we can see they restyled the rear end

there was also a lot of finer detail tweaks and as mentioned even within the Mk7 there was the later Mk7A with further smaller tweaks, but sadly details are quite scant, even the 2 copies of the Spare parts for invalid three wheelers I have from the Ministry themselves, while they both have a Model 65 Stanley Mk7 section, its very light on parts listings,

and the big major change behind the scenes of course was locations where the machines where built/registered, thats the quickest way to tell a Mk6 from a Mk7, then the glass side windows, and finally the rear end detailing, another change was the Mk7 moved to Desmo Mirrors like what you see on a Model 70, but obviously these are something that where mixed n matched in service, so cant 100% be relied upon to ID a machine

 

hopefully this Ramble helps clear things up! although I fear it probably generates more questions then it answers! 

[LightBulbFun]

On 01/04/2023 at 13:52, LightBulbFun said:

and now for something a bit different! recently this was found with a cache of Invacar parts, its a Jiffy bag, but with a Model 70 Ministry stock/part number on it you may

and inside is a box with a Ministry store number on it also, a mysterious one

and inside the box, is this! the 4th type of fuel gauge used in the Model 70!

the very rare digital* dash option! 

so did anyone think this was some sort of bad April fools joke? (because tbh it sort of is im not very good at this sort of thing LOL) but the joke is its not one! its an anti-fools joke, this genuinely is a Model 70 fuel gauge, and this genuinely was a 4th type of Gauge, After the 2 Smiths gauges, and the later Veglia replacement fuel gauge, came this Curtis Digital fuel gauge, right at the end of the scheme! I had no idea they where a thing until it was unearthed a few months ago in a cache of Model 70 parts  

here is the corresponding letter that went with it,  (this letter in itself has been quite useful as I had always wondered how they handled the voltage regulator that was fitted to Post March 1976 Model 70's when fitting the later Veglia gauge)

this one of those things that really show, how seriously the government took the whole Invacar scheme, how no matter the time or the situation they would go out of their way to keep machines functioning, keep in mind this was 4 years to the end here and they where still developing new parts! this is right up there with the stainless steel floors they fitted to all Model 70's in 2000 or so

I find it quite funky, in a sort of retro-futuristic sci-fi sort of way, a glimps into what might of been, if the Model 70 was never withdrawn from service, or never ended production! especially the fact its an 80's style LED bar graph

I will admit it does not fit the circular atheistic at all, I think a vertical arrangement like the Veglia would of been better in this case, but its still nifty to see in and of itself  I do wonder how many got fitted in the end! I cant say I have ever seen a Model 70 with one, I have seen a few late survivors with the Veglia gauge, but never this Curtis LED gauge!

 

 

I also find it quite amusing because if you wind the clock back a few years ago, you may recall I bought a USB Charger and volt meter thing with the intention of zip-tying it to the bottom the dashboard rail and I selected the one I did because I found its bezel matched the bezels on REV's existing gauge and clock set and I liked the 80's atheistic of its LED display, so I find it quite amusing that, turns out there unknowingly already was something much like this for the Model 70! but if you told me about it Id of had a hard time believing you! (as an aside I still need to fit this USB charge-volt-gauge)

On 08/08/2019 at 21:26, LightBulbFun said:

eBay was throwing a £5 voucher at my face

so I thought it was good opportunity to get a couple small items iv been wanting

1st thing is this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282475427399 for doing silly computer experiments regarding hanging a Desktop PCIe GPU off an AppleTV or some Poor abused MacBook I have kicking around via said machines mini PCIe wifi slot 

and the second thing I got which makes it relevant to the thread is this Combo USB charger and car volt meter for the Invacar  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202735513982 (note you can get them cheaper I just went for the slightly more expensive listing to get me past the £10 min order amount for the voucher to work)

I was going to get one like the one DW has but I think the one I found fits the rest of the dash atheistic better plus it looks quite 1980s and I am a sucker for that sort of thing   (also going to tag @Zelandeth since I know he is too )

On 13/08/2019 at 11:43, LightBulbFun said:

voltmeter/USB charging thingy has arrived for the Invacar  shown here running off a 9V battery I have kicking around (the 1 bar was blinking on and off probably to indicate that your battery is very low this being for 12V systems)

also charged my phone off the 9V battery, well it was at 100% already so not a massive load but the phone register being plugged into a power source so thats good

 

[brummiejon]

Had a go at soldering the obvious broken solder joints and fitted a new fuse holder on Flo’s battery charger this morning…. hurrah, I got an output…. Still doesn’t seem quite right…. It is supposed to charged all of the batteries wired in series which in total is 36v….

output from the charger is 

low = 27.0 v
med = 30.6 v
high = 31.8 v

correct me if I’m wrong but shouldn’t the charger be putting out over 36v to be charging the batteries?  I assumed that the low, med and high positions would change the amperage output rather than different voltages… this is all a big learning curve for me…..

 

[LightBulbFun]

43 minutes ago, brummiejon said:

Had a go at soldering the obvious broken solder joints and fitted a new fuse holder on Flo’s battery charger this morning…. hurrah, I got an output…. Still doesn’t seem quite right…. It is supposed to charged all of the batteries wired in series which in total is 36v….

output from the charger is 

low = 27.0 v
med = 30.6 v
high = 31.8 v

correct me if I’m wrong but shouldn’t the charger be putting out over 36v to be charging the batteries?  I assumed that the low, med and high positions would change the amperage output rather than different voltages… this is all a big learning curve for me…..

 

I assume this is after the bridge rectifiers output going by the DC setting on the volt meter?, this will be un-smoothed (well I dont see any smoothing caps anyhow!), so the meter is going to be averaging things out somewhat hence the lower than expected reading, although it does still sound quite low, as you say I imagine charge rate limiting will be done through a current limiter of some kind, (I do wonder if the rectifier itself is a bit unhappy and dragging the voltage down?)

if your able to and comfortable too, id set the volt meter to AC and then probe the output of the transformer as it goes into the bridge rectifier and see what your voltages are there

[brummiejon]

18 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I assume this is after the bridge rectifiers output going by the DC setting on the volt meter?, this will be un-smoothed (well I dont see any smoothing caps anyhow!), so the meter is going to be averaging things out somewhat hence the lower than expected reading, although it does still sound quite low, as you say I imagine charge rate limiting will be done through a current limiter of some kind, (I do wonder if the rectifier itself is a bit unhappy and dragging the voltage down?)

if your able to and comfortable too, id set the volt meter to AC and then probe the output of the transformer as it goes into the bridge rectifier and see what your voltages are there

Although the selenium rectifier is obviously working, it may well be not happy as you say… I intend to replace it with a discretely placed modern rectifier anyhow, I was just glad of some kind of output at this stage…. There is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of capacitor ever being in place and I’ll have a look at testing the AC output of the  transformer (very  carefully). I’m also wondering if the transformer needs a little time to “warm up”….

[bobdisk]

On 4/2/2023 at 2:50 PM, Remspoor said:

This is on Twatter.

 

That front tyre looks a bit flat !

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, brummiejon said:

I’m also wondering if the transformer needs a little time to “warm up”….

a transformer is just a couple copper coils wrapped around a load of steel sheets in a cube formation, to grossly oversimplify things, as such its not like an old Valve radio or TV that needs a little bit of time to warm up

they either work or they dont, if your getting a lower than expected/then whats indicated on its data-plate,  voltage reading from a transformer on its own thats not connected to anything,  thats usually an indication of shorted turns somewhere, and at that point its more or less scrap, unless you can get someone to rewind/rebuild it but thats a fairly involved/expensive operation

hopefully thats not the case here, usually you only get shorted turns from severe overloading, and you would be able to physically see/smell that as significant qualities of magic smoke will have escaped, but also check for any physical damage on the coils if anyones bashed it against something taken the varnish insulation off 

[bobdisk]

1 hour ago, brummiejon said:

Although the selenium rectifier is obviously working, it may well be not happy as you say… I intend to replace it with a discretely placed modern rectifier anyhow, I was just glad of some kind of output at this stage…. There is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of capacitor ever being in place and I’ll have a look at testing the AC output of the  transformer (very  carefully). I’m also wondering if the transformer needs a little time to “warm up”….

Transformers dont "warm up",  their output is there immediately.  Replacements for the selenium rectifrier (!) can be either a single bridge rectifier, or four separate diodes. Is there anything written on the selenium to give an idea of type number or specification? How many terminals on it? 

[brummiejon]

31 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

Transformers dont "warm up",  their output is there immediately.  Replacements for the selenium rectifrier (!) can be either a single bridge rectifier, or four separate diodes. Is there anything written on the selenium to give an idea of type number or specification? How many terminals on it? 

Unfortunately there is nothing to indicate values on either the rectifier or the transformer…. The transformer looks to be in pretty good condition, no signs of, bashing, burning or melting and no smell. So it’s all guesswork…. I’m not really planning to use it, a modern battery charger will be better for the health of my new batteries but it would be nice if it was working and could be used if I were ever to get stuck somewhere….. just bought this baby as my main charging unit…. 
 

[Remspoor]

45 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

That front tyre looks a bit flat !

only at the bottom.....boomboom

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, Remspoor said:

only at the bottom.....boomboom

You beat me too it, I must be under more pressure than you!

[doug]

Have you seen this pic before? Sorry if its a repost.

Sent from my SM-A127F using Tapatalk

[LightBulbFun]

28 minutes ago, doug said:

Have you seen this pic before? Sorry if its a repost.

Sent from my SM-A127F using Tapatalk
 

indeed I have its a bad colourisation of this black and white original, Tis a Tippen Delta Mk2  

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/18108512.days---locarno-dancehall-1962-1963/

[High Jetter]

Four Macs ...heavy shower due? The word 'quartet' seems unnecessary.

[brummiejon]

Busy day in the harbour

[Zelandeth]

Are those voltage measured with it actually charging the battery?  Depending on the state of charge of the battery that will pull the voltage down a bit (or a lot if really low, especially if the rectifier is tired).

[brummiejon]

41 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Are those voltage measured with it actually charging the battery?  Depending on the state of charge of the battery that will pull the voltage down a bit (or a lot if really low, especially if the rectifier is tired).

No, that’s with it disconnected from the batteries… I’m going to test the secondary AC voltage tomorrow