invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[warren t claim]

1 hour ago, Sheefag said:

This appeals to my logic and grasp of justice. In essence, the only legal way to obtain one of these now is to steal it.

It's not theft if the DHSS are paying you to round them up. If ITV4 decided to make a TV series @Sheefag The Invacare Bounty Hunter I'd certainly Sky+ it. 

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, plasticvandan said:

Having been around these things for 25 years,and the original scrapping directives from 1997-2003,no, these vehicles were collected in to be scrapped,being property of the dhss,the repairer or scrap merchant being required to return the chassis plate as proof of the vehicle being scrapped,as they were not to be sold to the public.cars given to museums during this period having to sign a document stating the car was not to be used on the road.as time wore on and the dhss realised that many scrap merchants weren't fulfilling their obligations,they were collected directly by the dhss from users so they could be destroyed. Some people did have their cars taken off them having "acquired" them after the 2003 date. It was only a pleasure on behalf of the older incumbent of the invalid carriage register that effectively got a pardon for remaining cars to be re registered for the road.

there really is nothing Hazy about the ex-Government vehicles these days.

its bad enough you where perpetuating the myth that Model 70's are banned from Motorways!

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/329/#comment-2822576

but to spread FUD like this about the ex-government machines, I am really quite saddened by that ! I figured you as a Reliant Enthusiast, you would be dead against this sort of FUD? given the amount of FUD there is out there about Reliant's themselves that you must have had to deal with

talks have been had in the past directly with the Ministry people about the matter, and its really a non issue, to the point that the very first Model 70 to be returned officially to the road after 2003, was MHJ22P, one of the ~33 special late service post 31st of March 2003 machines, that in 2002 was registered directly to the Ministry themselves so they could keep an eye on it, when the logbook for that was applied for in 2007, it went through with no problems, the Ministry never objected on the V712 they would of received, and likewise other machines which where directly registered to the Ministry, some even directly registered to warbreck house, where not contested when their logbooks where applied for when they where later found and saved throughout the late 2000's onwards

there is also the fact that the Invalid Vehicle Service just does not exist anymore, and it has not for about 20 years now , so they effectively became property of whoever they ended up with, since the department that owned them/was responsible for them just does not exist, the records are gone and and all the personal disbanded 

so again it really is a non-issue and this has, as above been proven/set by multiple means, direct communication with the Ministry confirmation from them, that they dont care anymore about the vehicles and that they are effectively "public domain" now, and then this was then tested in actuality by the direct application for the logbooks of ex-ministry machines, where there was no objection to said application 

1 hour ago, chadders said:

Maybe I'm looking at this a bit simplistically but if the law covered Invacars then wouldn't Invacares be excluded?

So maybe the answer is for them to be registered as the latter, a process that already seems to have started.

theres nothing written in law against any sort of Invalid Vehicle, its a very common misconception that the law was altered when the ministry machines where withdrawn from the road, but nothing in law was altered against their use 

 

[Sheefag]

12 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

It's not theft if the DHSS are paying you to round them up. If ITV4 decided to make a TV series @Sheefag The Invacare Bounty Hunter I'd certainly Sky+ it. 

After the necessary and gratuitous violence, each owner will be left with one of these.

It's safer and for the best.

[warren t claim]

Just now, Sheefag said:

After the necessary and gratuitous violence, each owner will be left with one of these.

It's safer and for the best.

I think you misheard me. I said I wanted you to share a photo of your wife's "Beetle Bonnet" , not "Beetle Wing!"

[chadders]

1 minute ago, LightBulbFun said:

there really is nothing Hazy about the ex-Government vehicles these days,  you might of been around in period, but so where many other people, and theres plenty of FUD and untruths that come from those people as well, so I ask please dont perpetuate old myths that have no substance to them 

its bad enough you where perpetuating the myth that Model 70's are banned from Motorways!

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/329/#comment-2822576

but to spread FUD like this about the ex-government machines, I am really quite saddened by that ! I figured you as a Reliant Enthusiast, you would be dead against this sort of FUD? given the amount of FUD there is out there about Reliant's themselves that you must have had to deal with

talks have been had in the past directly with the Ministry people about the matter, and its really a non issue, to the point that the very first Model 70 to be returned officially to the road after 2003, was MHJ22P, one of the ~33 special late service post 31st of March 2003 machines, that in 2002 was registered directly to the Ministry themselves so they could keep an eye on it, when the logbook for that was applied for in 2007, it went through with no problems, the Ministry never objected on the V712 they would of received, and likewise other machines which where directly registered to the Ministry, some even directly registered to warbreck house, where not contested when their logbooks where applied for when they where later found and saved throughout the late 2000's onwards

there is also the fact that the Invalid Vehicle Service just does not exist anymore, and it has not for about 20 years now , so they effectively became property of whoever they ended up with, since the department that owned them/was responsible for them just does not exist, the records are gone and and all the personal disbanded 

so again it really is a non-issue and this has, as above been proven/set by multiple means, direct communication with the Ministry confirmation from them, that they dont care anymore about the vehicles and that they are effectively "public domain" now, and then this was then tested in actuality by the direct application for the logbooks of ex-ministry machines, where there was no objection to said application 

theres nothing written in law against any sort of Invalid Vehicle, its a very common misconception that the law was altered when the ministry machines where withdrawn from the road, but nothing in law was altered against their use 

 

It's a very long time since I studied law but 'effectively' is not the same as actually. Let's face it they're not going to be confused with a normal car, it'll be obvious what they are and even though their exact provenance might be unknown I don't think it'd be too difficult to make a good case that they're government property. That the department may not exist in the same form I'd say is not an issue, government departments come and go.

No objection then doesn't mean no objection ever.

[warren t claim]

Just now, Sheefag said:

I guess you no longer want these Lancaster bomb doors then?

Are you trying to say that your good lady has been "Bathing at Barrymore's"?

[Sheefag]

11 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

I think you misheard me. I said I wanted you to share a photo of your wife's "Beetle Bonnet" , not "Beetle Wing!"

I guess you no longer want these Lancaster bomb doors then?

[Sheefag]

oops

 

[warren t claim]

7 minutes ago, chadders said:

It's a very long time since I studied law but 'effectively' is not the same as actually. Let's face it they're not going to be confused with a normal car, it'll be obvious what they are and even though their exact provenance might be unknown I don't think it'd be too difficult to make a good case that they're government property. That the department may not exist in the same form I'd say is not an issue, government departments come and go.

No objection then doesn't mean no objection ever.

How I see it is that a contractor was paid to destroy them but as they have little scrap value he let them rot away in a field for over a decade before he started getting strange people approaching him asking if they're for sale. As he wants shut of them he flogs them off without a V5. He never actually owned them, he was only contracted to destroy them. 

A buyer bungs the contractor some money and carts his Invicare away. Buyer eventually applies for a log book and as the DHSS no longer exists by the time the DVLA letter appears on a DWP desk a new V5 is issued. 

This is a bit like the well known urban myth of a man who buys a barn find Mk2 Cortina 1600E and after spending thousands having it restored he discovers that The Man From The Pru wants it back as it was stolen 45 years ago.

[warren t claim]

As it says on any V5, being the RK doesn't mean that you're the actual owner.

One interesting point that I came across a couple of times as a repo man was the belief that if a vehicle had been changed RK's seven times since it was bought on finance the seventh RK legally owned it free and clear of finance. I'm not sure if they thought that this triggered some sort of "Market Overt" scenario but it didn't stop me fucking off with their car.

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, warren t claim said:

As it says on any V5, being the RK doesn't mean that you're the actual owner.

One interesting point that I came across a couple of times as a repo man was the belief that if a vehicle had been changed RK's seven times since it was bought on finance the seventh RK legally owned it free and clear of finance. I'm not sure if they thought that this triggered some sort of "Market Overt" scenario but it didn't stop me fucking off with their car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_overt

[brandersnatch]

7 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_overt

I remember wandering round Bermondsey market early one winters morning wondering why everything was so cheap. Stall holders all looked dodgy too. 

[warren t claim]

2 minutes ago, brandersnatch said:

I remember wandering round Bermondsey market early one winters morning wondering why everything was so cheap. Stall holders all looked dodgy too. 

How many shakes did it take for you to remove all of the glass shards from the Ferguson Videostar that you bought for £20?

[BorniteIdentity]

FUD is a new one on me. 

Nonetheless, I’m not sure these really have any place on the King’s highway some 40 years after they were deemed unfit for purpose and were sent for smelting. 

Museums? Fine. But on the road? Negative. 

 

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, warren t claim said:

FUD?

Fucking

Unsafe

Deathtrap?

[brandersnatch]

9 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

How many shakes did it take for you to remove all of the glass shards from the Ferguson Videostar that you bought for £20?

Oddly enough the remote was missing. 

[plasticvandan]

I don't know what a fud is either. Also note I never said model 70s were banned from motorways (don't change details to suit yourself) merely replied to the invalid carriages sign,and invalid carriages were and still are banned from motorways. Your effectively argument essentially equates to finders keepers.. which is fine so long as no one is constantly hassling the DVLA about a particular class of vehicle...

 

[plasticvandan]

46 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

Fucking

Unsafe

Deathtrap?

Flipped

Upside

Down?

Fibreglass 

Utensil

Drawer?

 

[Sheefag]

Of all people, the Swiss have a modern version.

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, Sheefag said:

Of all people, the Swiss have a modern version.

I might have known that you'd have found that article as you're blessed with all the charisma and warmth of an assistant manager of a Dignitas clinic.

[chadders]

25 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

I don't know what a fud is either. Also note I never said model 70s were banned from motorways (don't change details to suit yourself) merely replied to the invalid carriages sign,and invalid carriages were and still are banned from motorways. Your effectively argument essentially equates to finders keepers.. which is fine so long as no one is constantly hassling the DVLA about a particular class of vehicle...

 

I think that it's meant to denote:

Fear

Uncertainty 

Doubt 

Although I fail to see the relevance unless it's Fear of driving it, Uncertain whether it'll get there and Doubt about finding intact if you've had to leave it anywhere.

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, chadders said:

I think that it's meant to denote:

Fear

Uncertainty 

Doubt 

Although I fail to see the relevance unless it's Fear of driving it, Uncertain whether it'll get there and Doubt about finding intact if you've had to leave it anywhere.

As a former Lancia Beta Coupe owner I can relate to that.

[Jim Bergerac]

Round these parts a FUD is a ladies intimate parts. 

[plasticvandan]

Is it just me who's looking forward to page 420?😅

[Sheefag]

24 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

I might have known that you'd have found that article as you're blessed with all the charisma and warmth of an assistant manager of a Dignitas clinic.

It would bring me great joy to cut you a special rate

[LightBulbFun]

9 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

I don't know what a fud is either. Also note I never said model 70s were banned from motorways (don't change details to suit yourself) merely replied to the invalid carriages sign,and invalid carriages were and still are banned from motorways. Your effectively argument essentially equates to finders keepers.. which is fine so long as no one is constantly hassling the DVLA about a particular class of vehicle...

 

your response was in response to @warren t claim posting a video of a Model 70 being pulled over by the police on a motorway, I explicitly made sure to link to your original post so people could see the context it was in for themselves, and not just take my word on it

but for the sake of completeness ill also quote over all the posts so you can see the time stamps also 

On 15/08/2023 at 23:46, warren t claim said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxGOtSPqMeg&ab_channel=EastWardTelevision

 

11.30 onwards for utter death dicing.

 

On 16/08/2023 at 00:39, LightBulbFun said:

On 15/08/2023 at 23:46, warren t claim said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxGOtSPqMeg&ab_channel=EastWardTelevision

Hah thats amusing! but I want to note how he is not pulled over for "driving a vehicle banned from the motorway" but simply is pulled over because he is going slow and obstructing traffic, as mentioned before a Model 70 is not actually banned from motorways like so many people think they, and they never have been banned either,  had he been keeping a good speed I doubt they would of bothered him,

 

its also a good example of how they where not really all colloquially known as "Invacars" as they are these days, the whole calling them all Invacars is actually a fairly recent phenomena, but back in the day in period they where never called that, most people just called Invalid Carriages, Invalid Trikes, Disability cars and so forth, sometimes even just called "Trikes" or "conveyances" 

but it is interesting to hear the police man make the comment even back in the 80's  of "not seen one of those for ages"

Model 70 in question is HPD692N  

On 16/08/2023 at 00:07, JJ0063 said:

Dez in 15 years time on his first run round the M25 en route to fetch a 6ft fluorescent tube someone kept in their garage for him since 2021. 

I hope @red5 does not take quite that long!, although its already been a year and a half! some sort of ETA would be much appreciated! 

after which there was a bit of discussion about the number plate of the Model 70 in question and their colloquial nick names, which Beko caps off with, a sign that has nothing to do with motorways at all

On 16/08/2023 at 10:33, beko1987 said:

then you respond with to everything with,

On 16/08/2023 at 16:27, plasticvandan said:

Indeed,they were banned from motorways long before lbf was born.

For obvious reasons.

Why not contact red5 directly LBF? If I had been paying insurance for 2+ years in something I had never driven I would be wanting it immediately,perhaps one of the many London based classic specialists or the reliant dealer in tooting might be able to take it on,obviously you would have to pay them though.

to which I said

On 16/08/2023 at 18:52, LightBulbFun said:

On 16/08/2023 at 16:27, plasticvandan said:

Indeed,they were banned from motorways long before lbf was born.

For obvious reasons.

no, the Model 70 was never banned from the motorway network, as the Model 70 (and all other full bodied carriages, apart from the Invacar Mk10) legally speaking are not Invalid Carriages when it comes to the RTA, RTRA and the RTOA

which is what I was pointing out in my comment, that he is pulled over simply for doing 30Mph on a 70Mph motorway, which you would get pulled over for in any car be it Invacar or Volvo LOL

On 16/08/2023 at 01:03, wuvvum said:

Depends what you mean by "recent" - they were known as Invacars when I first became aware of their existence, and that was over 40 years ago.

On 16/08/2023 at 08:37, busmansholiday said:

They were always called S**z Chariots in my youth.

On 16/08/2023 at 16:38, wuvvum said:

A chap I used to work with who was in a wheelchair was desperate for me to buy one so he could have a go - this is long before the TWC days.  He referred to them as "sp*zmobiles".

Its quite interesting to hear of the comments from people who where there in period

I suppose what i mean is in more formal/written settings, and in the 1960's-1970's when they where current, they where not called "Invacars" so generically, so much, certainly not by the people that used them and worked with them, at least from what I have read/been told about, so again the personal accounts are quite interesting  

as is said, and informally, they often had a whole range of rather rude nicknames, that I would recite but I rather not get myself banned LOL 

On 16/08/2023 at 18:23, red5 said:

I'm back in tomorrow. We'll see then. 

I'll update thread as well. 

Awesome, Looking forward to it  

and to which you responded with,

On 16/08/2023 at 19:18, plasticvandan said:

Guess it was.a.hangup from when the motorways were created 11 years before the model 70,that said I know a lot of users were pulled over and escorted off the motorway.

Certainly remember my grandad who repaired them referred to them as invalid carriages,as he worked on all different models.

so I think its pretty clear from the context and your response to my posts, that the subject was Model 70's on the motorway, I am certainly not trying to change any details to suit myself, again thats why I provided a direct link to your post, so people could see for themselves what the context here

 

 

I also note that your last post there, it was never a hang up of any sort, even by the time the first motorway opened the Preston Bypass, the first motorway legal Invalid vehicles, the 1957 Harper Mk6 and the 1957 AC Acedes where already on the road

the law only sought to prohibit invalid carriages of a certain weight class from the motorway network, those above that prohibited weight class, where allowed on the motorway, regardless of type (as long as they could achieve more then 25 mph on flat level ground), the highway code of the time made this quite clear

 

I think Invalid Vehicles have to be the most miss-understood vehicles on Britain's roads, again you as a Reliant owner/enthusiast surely you can sympathise here as those machines are similarly miss-understood albeit to a lesser-extent (tho I have seen a few people claim you cant even drive Reliant 3 wheelers on motorways!) and understand why I wish to set the record straight for anyone else who may stumble across Invacars in the future   

 

 

[warren t claim]

Just now, Sheefag said:

Happy to cut you a special rate

I thought that you'd boxed Esther Rantzen off with an Alton Towers type queue jump ticket for your bye bye service?

[BorniteIdentity]

14 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

but for the sake of completeness ill also quote over all the posts so you can see the time stamps

Busy day, Son?

[treehugger]

Encouraging reliant three wheelers on the motorway? God almighty. 

[lesapandre]

Always an informative response @LightBulbFun - keep up the good work. This is my favourite thread on here. I'm itching to have drive some time.

When I win the Euromillions (€100m+) I'm intending to create a few 1-off cars - principally I am going to recreate the Wolseley 8/180 prototype:

Source: AROnline.

But I'd also do a few 1-off invacars. So cool.