invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[chadders]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

actual users of machines who verified the accuracy of the speedometer by GPS or other such means, 

I mean common now, literally on the previous page I quoted such a verification  LOL 

and for completeness sake heres the Mk12 verification also  

 

and another for the Model 70, this time from Dollywobbler's TWC

 

certainly no one here is quoting the 82Mph top speed as hard fact, or at least I hope not! as I have said also just on the previous page (and plenty of times previously), no one knows where that comes from, hence why I am eager to find out what the actual vMax figure is  

I couldn't be bothered wading through pages and pages of turgid prose so I wanted you to summarise it.

LOL

[Dobloseven]

Hopefully Red5 will do a couple of maximum speed runs before he signs REV off!

[Christine]

 The clue is in the name.  model .. 70  !   70 mph    70 mpg 

[chadders]

14 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Hopefully Red5 will do a couple of maximum speed runs before he signs REV off!

Hopefully with better results than this but I'm sure that this was going faster than 82mph.

 

[BorniteIdentity]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

To give credit where due, I am sure that AC designed the model 70 responsibly and knew what they were doing, and they would have tested the maximum speed.  And they would probably have geared it so that it ran out of steam before it became uncontrollable.

Not sure that’s true, if LBF barrel rolled his at 10mph. 

Anyway, when is it arriving back in London - and is it ready for even a gentle spin around the block? 

[Back_For_More]

As above - when is it back with you? 

Who will be sorting the kingpin issue - found a garage yet? 

When are you expecting it on the road now? 

[garbaldy]

7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Model 70 and even Invacar Mk12's speedometers dont lie

 

5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

According to the GPS speedometer app on my phone, 60mph is an indicated 61mph on the dash.

Not much right enough but still a lie so infact no different to any other manufacturers speedos

[timolloyd]

The barrel rolling could be helpful when it comes to London finding a parking space. Take a leaf from Ace Aventura’s book.

[cupoftea]

18 hours ago, NorthernMonkey said:

The problem is his disability was a missing arm 🤔😳😳

I will pray for you both.

[captain_70s]

Top speed is irrelevant. I had the Dolomite at an indicated 85mph (probably more like 80mph) and it was shit. Loud, light steering, crosswinds trying to shift it a lane over, 6mpg in 20w50.

You do top speed once for a laugh and then never again.

Realistically you're not going over 55mph. I wouldn't even take the thing near a motorway - it's a shit place to be in a Triumph Acclaim, let alone something with three wheels.

Carb needles and ign timing are also irrelevant until you can actually test drive it as the book figures are all based on a fresh engine and petrol that no longer exists. The Dolly drives significantly better tuned by ear and feel over the book values.

[BorniteIdentity]

I had an indicated 100 out of the Sierra on the private road which is often mistaken for the A421 between what is easily thought of as Bedford and St Neots but is actually not for legal reasons. 

As the good captain said: it wasn’t an experience I’d like to repeat. In that car 30mph on the needle is exactly 30 by GPS so god knows what it was, but the poor old car protested by vomiting quite a good measure of its internal fluids and I did the same. 

[egg]

I remember indicated 92 mph in my 999c FIRE engined Uno 4-speed downhill. I bet if I did that now it would feel world ending. As others have mentioned cross winds and thin rubber do not a bahnstormer make. Anyway, there's not a 70mph limit within 5-10 miles of Dez I doubt.

[Dobloseven]

I reckon if you've got any old car and can keep pace with the traffic and not hold anybody up, that's as good as it needs to be.Watching Zelandeths strangely hypnotic videos,he certainly seems to be doing all that buzzing round Milton Keynes.

[ETCHY]

Back in the early 1990's 65 mph in my 105e Anglia (997cc) felt like someone was about to rip the roof off. It was decidedly wobbly at that speed & wasn't fun at all.
It had 4 wheels & wasn't plastic with a tiller for a steering wheel..
I don't care what an Invacar will allegedly do (& nfw is it 80+ mph) , i'd stick to pottering round town & maybe for a treat going further afield & doing around 50mph max.
Anything else IMHO especially when inexperienced is a recipe to end up actually needing an Ambulance.

[Zelandeth]

The biggest problem at speed in the Invacar is how direct the steering is.  It's very easy to get a weave on until you're used to it.  

Actually at speed it doesn't feel any more unnerving to be honest than my Metros did, though that's not really saying much given that they did tend to feel like they were going to fly apart at the seams anywhere fsr north of 50.

I've been poked several times suggesting that I should take TPA along to one of the track day events one of the other circles I am part of run a couple of times a year purely for giggles (there is a history of completely inappropriate vehicles being taken round the track there), and if I do eventually give in to the poking I will probably take the opportunity to in a legal and safe as practical manner answer the top speed question once and for all.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

The biggest problem at speed in the Invacar is how direct the steering is.  It's very easy to get a weave on until you're used to it.  

that was one of the amusing things about chucking people into REV at the FoD, the wobble they would do for the first few feet as the person driving tries to get a feel for the steering, and suddenly realising just how direct said steering is, as they then over-correct the other, tickled me greatly  

I have never had a problem with it, but then again even before I started driving regular cars I was driving REV, so perhaps its just ingrained into me

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

I've been poked several times suggesting that I should take TPA along to one of the track day events one of the other circles I am part of run a couple of times a year purely for giggles (there is a history of completely inappropriate vehicles being taken round the track there), and if I do eventually give in to the poking I will probably take the opportunity to in a legal and safe as practical manner answer the top speed question once and for all.

I always wanted to ask about that in one of the track-day threads on here, would I be allowed to take REV on a Trackday or would it just get rejected on safety grounds, (REV does have a built in rollover bar, so she does have that going for her   )

but I figured i'd just get flamed for it LOL  

 

I have heard of of Model 70's being used quite successfully in autosolo courses and the such like, the very direct steering there I imagine helps out quite a bit  

 

personally im still waiting for the Santa-pod shootout with you and @dollywobbler 

[Snake Charmer]

45 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I have heard of of Model 70's being used quite successfully in autosolo courses and the such like, the very direct steering there I imagine helps out quite a bit  

 

Would a pair of these on the front corners be classed as cheating?

[chadders]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

The biggest problem at speed in the Invacar is how direct the steering is.  It's very easy to get a weave on until you're used to it.  

Actually at speed it doesn't feel any more unnerving to be honest than my Metros did, though that's not really saying much given that they did tend to feel like they were going to fly apart at the seams anywhere fsr north of 50.

I've been poked several times suggesting that I should take TPA along to one of the track day events one of the other circles I am part of run a couple of times a year purely for giggles (there is a history of completely inappropriate vehicles being taken round the track there), and if I do eventually give in to the poking I will probably take the opportunity to in a legal and safe as practical manner answer the top speed question once and for all.

That's interesting as I had several Metros and they were fine at speed, for example the MG ones feeling pretty stable at an indicated 100 when I commuted up and down the A1.

They certainly didn't feel like a motorised wheely bin with a third wheel screwed on.

[ETCHY]

4 minutes ago, chadders said:

That's interesting as I had several Metros and they were fine at speed, for example the MG ones feeling pretty stable at an indicated 100 when I commuted up and down the A1.

They certainly didn't feel like a motorised wheely bin with a third wheel screwed on.

Perhaps the wider tyres, spoiler & smaller sports steering wheel helped ?

I had a bog standard 1982 Metro HLS years ago & that was twitchy as hell on the motorway due to its  very light steering.

[chadders]

I also had a couple of 1.0Ls, they obviously weren't as good but quite acceptable.

[R Lutz]

This thread reminds me of a show on Amazon called 'Its Not A Race, the Scooter Cannoball Run' but with less back-up. 

[R Lutz]

1 hour ago, chadders said:

That's interesting as I had several Metros and they were fine at speed, for example the MG ones feeling pretty stable at an indicated 100 when I commuted up and down the A1. They certainly didn't feel like a motorised wheely bin with a third wheel screwed on.

A 100mph in a A-series Metro is for the committed. That old pushrod lump is doing around 5,800 rpm at that speed. You could do it, but it wouldn't be enjoyable for any long duration. 

I always found Metros stable if you were running on genuine Dunlop TD tyres or Michelin TDXEs, they were a seriously chunky tyre. Colway remoulds however, forget it. I never had any experience of a Metro on 135/145 tyres so cannot comment.

[chadders]

That was an indicated 100* and at that time, the early 80s, the A1 was peppered with roundabouts so the engine got a regular break. Having an expensive Pioneer component hifi also helped with the noise.

* I'm sure that it wasn't as accurate as invacare ones are supposed to be and was well before GPS was freely available.

[UltraWomble]

Couple of invacars from the 1972 Preston Guild. 

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, UltraWomble said:

Couple of invacars from the 1972 Preston Guild. 

Oh my, thats really fascinating! WPK146G is an AC Acedes Mk14A Model 67, but if we zoom in and "enhance" (the original high rez photos can be found here  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1417865325112347?multi_permalinks=3751600138405509 )

if I am not mistaken thats a steering wheel! I have *never* seen a full bodied Villiers machine equipped with a steering wheel before now! pretty much universally, they had an Invacar type Tiller control *sometimes* with the odd addtional foot pedal or 2

how I would love to have some more detailed interior shots of WPK146G, to see how it was all arranged exactly,  and what the rest of its controls where laid out, the accelerator brakes clutch gear change etc!

 

thank you very much for sharing these photos with me, its fun how new stuff like this is still coming out of the woodwork over 5 years sine this thread started  

 

BTW there was also a Stanley Argson hiding in the crowd too which was pretty fun to see in it own right  it would of been about 20 years old already in that photo!

[SiC]

Old cars are just not designed for high speed. The fastest old car I've driven is MGB. That's fine up to 72mph and doing a respectable 3k rpm or something like that. Above that I get wheel vibration at 72-74mph. Keep going and that eases off but then the front end starts to lift. The steering gets lighter and it's very unnerving when someone passes you 90mph+ on the motorway as their airstream hits you. Those vehicles dwarf you in size of what you're sitting in and would completely demolish you in an accident while they walk away uninjured. You get fully aware how much energy needs to be dissipated if you need to stop and how sketchy that will be. 

While at those speeds, the engines are being worked hard and it's very unkind to an old lump. After all it's going to be time consuming and expense to fix it if you break said engine. 

My 1500 Spitfire really doesn't like above 3.5k. At 4k the vibration is pretty bad as presumably the crank is flexing around. 

Like others have said, you might do it once as "even though its an old car, I'll drive it like a modern" at 80mph. But then your will to live and your wallet kick in. It's hard to comprehend and describe how sketchy it feels at speed in a car that doesn't want to stay on the road. 

Where as something modern (well 20 years old isn't modern now) like my E320, TT or my wife's humdrum Civic you accelerate at 60mph then look down to go "errr, perhaps I'm going a bit quick" as the Speedo needle is ticking into licence loosing territory without realising. Makes sense as all have top speeds well above 100mph and due to the autobahn, often get used at them. It's something manufacturers have got very good at it the last 2 to 3 decades in making cars safe, refined and comfortable when making progress. After all, most of these "old cars" (let's say pre-80s) were designed when motorways weren't that common nor was their use. 

Compare this map of 1972 versus today. 

Most old cars can do motorways but it's really not fun and kind of pointless. Motorways are great at covering long distances quickly - the destination is more interesting than the journey. The fun in old cars is often the opposite. 

So yeah, really don't expect to be doing much motorway driving in an Invacar, let alone get to the top speed. You'll do it once or twice for the lols but then realise what everyone on here is saying. 

[chadders]

The front end lift on a MGB is cured by a front spoiler like the BL ST one, at least for the convertible.

I never had wheel vibrations with mine except when the wheels needed balancing.

With that 4,000 rpm, about 90mph with overdrive engaged, is comfortable with no oil pressure issues, although I wouldn't do it now with modern traffic.

[LightBulbFun]

44 minutes ago, SiC said:

You'll do it once or twice for the lols but then realise what everyone on here is saying. 

I hope you dont mind me saying, but I find this is a bit frustrating! as I have explained already I just want to know top speed for the data sheet, I already am well aware that a Model 70 is much more of a B road blaster then a motorway cruiser LOL

On 04/02/2024 at 00:20, LightBulbFun said:

this talk of top speed is something I just want to find out for information sake so I have that datapoint for the datasheet so to speak , and so I have a proper answer to give people, because when you tell someone about an Invacar/that you have one, one of the inevitable questions is always "how fast does it go" or "what its top speed"

I am in no way planning on ragging around London at 70Mph every waking hour.

when planning my hypothetical trips in REV (for example to the FoD and back) I do generally tick the avoid motorways button for route planning for the reasons well stated

 

but it seems people suddenly suddenly think I want to drive REV up to the middle of Scotland and back on a daily basis at 100Mph, and im stting here like "no? where did that idea come from"

 

[SiC]

8 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I hope you dont mind me saying, but I find this is really frustating! as I have explained already I just want to know top speed for the data sheet, I already am well aware that a Model 70 is much more of a B road blaster then a motorway cruiser LOL

Ah so making a top trumps card type exercise. Brave person who tries that! I'd be wanting to wear motorcycle protective gear (i.e. helmet and leathers) and doing it on a nice long stretch of clear tarmac like a runway. There aren't many speedway tracks left around now. I can't imagine Ehra-Lessien is cheap to rent against what manufacturers would pay out for access to it for their own tests!

11 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

when planning my hypothetical trips in REV (for example to the FoD and back) I do generally tick the avoid motorways route for the reasons well stated

Probably a good fun trip to do it in it a couple of times. I'd imagine it's quite a good few hours journey if keeping off the motorway though? Very tiring but a fun challenge to do. Two to three hours long continuous runs is about my limit in old cars. I'm supposed to be taking up an old car to Preston later this year for a family wedding, which is a 4+ hour journey on the motorway. Not really looking forward to it tbh and might say no. 

[LightBulbFun]

3 minutes ago, SiC said:

Ah so making a top trumps card type exercise. Brave person who tries that! I'd be wanting to wear motorcycle protective gear (i.e. helmet and leathers) and doing it on a nice long stretch of clear tarmac like a runway. There aren't many speedway tracks left around now. I can't imagine Ehra-Lessien is cheap to rent against what manufacturers would pay out for access to it for their own tests!

yeah its exactly just that!  theres so much mystery surrounding it, and you know me Im a stickler for the facts and figures, so it really bugs me that no one has a straight answer

and yeah I think part of the problem is, if its faster then the NSL, then I guess anyone who actually achieved whatever the figure is on a public road would be reluctant to admit to it, since it would/could be self incriminating yourself?

 

although that would be one hell of a speed ticket to frame on the wall LOL or maybe it might get thrown out because no one would actually believe a Model 70 can go that quickly and it must of been an equipment fault, (although I imagine these days, its all issued automatically without any human intervention?) 

(somewhere in the bus thread is a driver in a double decker bus getting pulled for doing 90 something Mph and the judge throwing it out because he just could not believe a double decker bus could go that fast! obviously I dont know how true that story is or not, but it amuses me ) 

7 minutes ago, SiC said:

Probably a good fun trip to do it in it a couple of times. I'd imagine it's quite a good few hours journey if keeping off the motorway though? Very tiring but a fun challenge to do. Two to three hours long continuous runs is about my limit in old cars. I'm supposed to be taking up an old car to Preston later this year for a family wedding, which is a 4+ hour journey on the motorway. Not really looking forward to it tbh and might say no. 

according to google maps, its only about 15 minutes difference between non-motorway and motorway, about 1:45 vs 2 hours

 

I think most of the 2 hours it says the trip will take is is simply the escape from New York London bit, rather then the drive to the FoD itself, if that makes sense?

from where I live it can take easily 2 hours just to get to the M25 for example, when I was learning to drive I wanted to do some motorway lessons since they made it legal a few years back, but my driving instructor just said "no way we can make it to a motorway and back within a single 2 hour lesson"

well there are some former motorways nearby I have driven on what used to be the A102(M) but everything is 50Mph speed limits max.

 

2 hours is my max in any car I have found, or at least any of my driving instructors, so thats how I would plan my trips, make sure that every hour or 2 theres somewhere for me to pull off and recuperate for a bit 

(this is one of the reasons I really want to try a 2CV here in Central London, I was surpassingly pain-free in one at the FoD, but I was literally driving that flat out, there was little dancing of the legs, so I have to wonder if things might be a different proposition  if I tried on here at home)