Datsuncog's Heaps: Sept 2023 - Another Year's T-Met Exemption Certificate...

[artdjones]

What are the codes on both cars? They're usually a bit more specific than " one of the sensors is in trouble".

[Split_Pin]

That looks sub optimal. Definitely the right course of action there as I have heard that these old Subarus can suffer from corrosion underneath.

Looks like you are set to avoid the position you were in with the Lagunii though.

[Datsuncog]

43 minutes ago, artdjones said:

What are the codes on both cars? They're usually a bit more specific than " one of the sensors is in trouble".

Forester gives me this one:  

On 7/20/2021 at 3:50 PM, Datsuncog said:

Code P0420; catalyst system efficiency below threshold (bank 1), which some light Google-fu suggests is linked to an oxygen sensor detecting that something isn't right somewhere.

This seems to cover a vast variety of maladies and potential expense, from a fucked catalyst to a grotty fuel filter, or an exhaust leak, or crappy fuel, or a banjaxed sensor somewhere in the system.

It seems that it isn't really much more specific than 'one of the sensors isn't happy' - all I could deduce from the Subaru Forums is that it's a common enough code, and can be cleared as necessary because often it's symptomatic of an ageing exhaust sensor going loopy, rather than an actual fault with the car.

However, if the garage does advise that the Forester seems worth repairing, then I'll add this to the list of items needing looked at and see if they've any bright ideas. I've seen a few other Mk2 Foresters down at the garage, so they may have some form with fettling them.

The Yaris claims Code P0117 is what ails it - 'Engine Coolant Temperature Circuit Low Input'

Now, for quite some years now this car's had the tendency to crank up its cooling fan on startup, and run it for a few minutes before cutting it out again. This happens from stone cold, and seemed to be a temp sensor fault.

I bought and fitted a replacement sensor, which made absolutely no difference. And the HBOL gives no clues, because for some reason this French-built run-out model has a whole array of different bits from those shown in the Haynes.

So I don't know if it's a fresh problem, or just the aftermarket sensor breaking down (black plug at the side of the engine block).

There's plenty of fresh coolant in the system, btw, and no issues with it running hot or cold - it just seems the fault code is advising that the coolant system circuit that monitors the temperature is dicky.

But hey ho. 

33 minutes ago, Split_Pin said:

That looks sub optimal. Definitely the right course of action there as I have heard that these old Subarus can suffer from corrosion underneath.

Looks like you are set to avoid the position you were in with the Lagunii though.

Yup, I don't want to go down that road again!

I've a tendency to throw good money after bad with cars, and I really need to stop that. Admittedly now isn't a brilliant time to be looking for a second-hand car, but I'm sure something will turn up if it seems that the Subaru's as rotten as a pear underneath - I'm really not that fussy...

[beko1987]

Yea, can see why your stopping and assessing now... Everything attached to those wishbones is going to be awful though. 

Buy a short term stopgap car whilst you assess 😂

[juular]

P0420 seems to rear its ugly head when either the cat starts to degrade in a minor fashion, or you swap the cat for an aftermarket one and the ECU doesn't like it.

The pretty much universal fix is to get an O2 sensor spacer, you're talking £10 or so off ebay.  I've done this quite a few times, 100% success rate so far and the cars still passed emissions tests.

Re: the coolant temperature sensor - some systems have two temperature sensors just as a possible line of investigation (no idea about the yaris).

[artdjones]

8 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

Forester gives me this one:  

It seems that it isn't really much more specific than 'one of the sensors isn't happy' - all I could deduce from the Subaru Forums is that it's a common enough code, and can be cleared as necessary because often it's symptomatic of an ageing exhaust sensor going loopy, rather than an actual fault with the car.

However, if the garage does advise that the Forester seems worth repairing, then I'll add this to the list of items needing looked at and see if they've any bright ideas. I've seen a few other Mk2 Foresters down at the garage, so they may have some form with fettling them.

The Yaris claims Code P0117 is what ails it - 'Engine Coolant Temperature Circuit Low Input'

Now, for quite some years now this car's had the tendency to crank up its cooling fan on startup, and run it for a few minutes before cutting it out again. This happens from stone cold, and seemed to be a temp sensor fault.

I bought and fitted a replacement sensor, which made absolutely no difference. And the HBOL gives no clues, because for some reason this French-built run-out model has a whole array of different bits from those shown in the Haynes.

So I don't know if it's a fresh problem, or just the aftermarket sensor breaking down (black plug at the side of the engine block).

There's plenty of fresh coolant in the system, btw, and no issues with it running hot or cold - it just seems the fault code is advising that the coolant system circuit that monitors the temperature is dicky.

But hey ho. 

Yup, I don't want to go down that road again!

I've a tendency to throw good money after bad with cars, and I really need to stop that. Admittedly now isn't a brilliant time to be looking for a second-hand car, but I'm sure something will turn up if it seems that the Subaru's as rotten as a pear underneath - I'm really not that fussy...

I've found P0420 can often be taken at face value, i.e. the catalytic converter is in trouble. I don't know if your software does live data. If so you can normally follow the voltage for  the O² sensors 1 and 2. The number one sensor should fluctuate fairly rapidly between 0.1-0.2v and 0.9-1v. If it's doing that it should be ok. The post cat sensor should show a straight voltage line in the middle of the previous voltage range. If it's following the fluctuations of the pre cat sensor that would indicate that the cat isn't doing anything. Which might be game over on a Subaru. The old cat would probably be worth money, though.

It would be worth trying a new temp sensor on the Yaris, also checking the state of the plug and cleaning the terminals.

[artdjones]

It looks like the black sensor is the one that is bringing up the code and the grey one with one wire is for the dash gauge.

[juular]

1 hour ago, juular said:

P0420 seems to rear its ugly head when either the cat starts to degrade in a minor fashion, or you swap the cat for an aftermarket one and the ECU doesn't like it.

The pretty much universal fix is to get an O2 sensor spacer, you're talking £10 or so off ebay.  I've done this quite a few times, 100% success rate so far and the cars still passed emissions tests.

Re: the coolant temperature sensor - some systems have two temperature sensors just as a possible line of investigation (no idea about the yaris).

Forgot to mention 0420 is regarding the rear post cat sensor only. Its purpose is purely to nag you, it doesn't affect the running of the car at all.

[Datsuncog]

4 hours ago, beko1987 said:

Yea, can see why your stopping and assessing now... Everything attached to those wishbones is going to be awful though. 

Buy a short term stopgap car whilst you assess 😂

Yeah, the general state of the suspension components were enough to give me a bit of teh fearz... it's gone downhill a lot since I was last under it, whether due to lack of use or just because that's how Subarus tend to go once they reach a certain age/ ripeness...

At least the Yaris now has a full year's ticket on it, and since we're both still working from home the transport situation's not as critical as it might have been a few years ago.

As long as the driveshafts don't fall off, of course.

In which case, I might have to excavate the Honda...

 

4 hours ago, juular said:

P0420 seems to rear its ugly head when either the cat starts to degrade in a minor fashion, or you swap the cat for an aftermarket one and the ECU doesn't like it.

The pretty much universal fix is to get an O2 sensor spacer, you're talking £10 or so off ebay.  I've done this quite a few times, 100% success rate so far and the cars still passed emissions tests.

Forgot to mention 0420 is regarding the rear post cat sensor only. Its purpose is purely to nag you, it doesn't affect the running of the car at all.

Ah, that's handy to know - it still has the original cat on it, to the best of my knowledge, but despite the best efforts of the Cataclean it may well be on its way out... which, in turn, may form part of the general viability assessment at the end of the month. But if it can be quelled with a ten-pound eBay spacer jobber, then I'm all for that...

The engine's running well, and indeed seems to be returning better mpg over the past few months, for some reason.

But it's not quite a DIY-friendly old bus - it's an ongoing source of shame that I've still not a clue how I would go about changing the spark plugs...

 

4 hours ago, artdjones said:

It would be worth trying a new temp sensor on the Yaris, also checking the state of the plug and cleaning the terminals.

It looks like the black sensor is the one that is bringing up the code and the grey one with one wire is for the dash gauge.

Yes, I think I'll give them all a good going-over with contact cleaner and see if that helps, cheers - I'd bought another sensor online which I think was meant to be the dash gauge sensor, but it turned out to have a different (triangular) socket terminal from the one already on the car - so it's still in its box, in the shed.

It was about this point I became a bit fed up and decided that if it wanted to spin its fan for a few minutes every morning, it could just go ahead and do it.

Another brilliant* decision which may be coming back to bite me...

[Split_Pin]

I'm  just wondering if the sensor on the block is for the ECU to tell it how hot or cold the engine is.

The switch you replaced could be controlled by a separate control unit rather than by a sensor on the radiator perhaps? I know my old Astra was like that. Pre 01 models had the traditional brass sensor that screws into the radiator and controls the fan switch but later ones like mine had a control unit to decide what happens. All rather unnecessary and they did tend to go a bit senile meaning the fan came in all the time. 

But ignoring it is definitely  what I'd do anyway.

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, Datsuncog said:

But if it can be quelled with a ten-pound eBay jobber, then I'm all for it...

Just remember to save the old cat. Elderly Japanese cats can be worth surprising amounts of money. There's usually a couple of lads on Done Deal looking to buy them. 

[Jimbob McGregor]

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

But it's not quite a DIY-friendly old bus - it's an ongoing source of shame that I've still not a clue how I would go about changing the spark plugs...

Spark plugs on Subarus…I’ve found that it helps to have a trolley jack/wooden block under the sump and slacken/release the odd engine mount allows you to tilt the engine enough to get the awkward plugs out/in.

[andy18s]

The chassis rails in between the 2 bolts that mount the rear subframe can disappear,and most of the captive nuts will break away when you try to loosen them

Maybe worth pulling the trim that covers the rear shock towers as rust can take hold out of sight 

[Datsuncog]

15 hours ago, andy18s said:

The chassis rails in between the 2 bolts that mount the rear subframe can disappear,and most of the captive nuts will break away when you try to loosen them

Maybe worth pulling the trim that covers the rear shock towers as rust can take hold out of sight 

Yup, that's my fear - that everything's now in an advanced state of crispiness underneath, and efforts to replace duff parts will just result in more work as captive fasteners shear and/ or pull away to reveal holes.

There used to be about seven or eight Mk2 Foresters around locally whenever I bought this one in early 2018 - now there only seems to be two others still on the road. It's possible that they've just reached their use-by date, sadly. The history file on mine shows a prolonged period of time spent in rural Wales, so it hasn't had the cushiest of lives.

I've a feeling that the garage, if they're short-staffed and snowed under, won't really be relishing the prospect of a five-day weldathon on an eighteen year old 4x4 when they could just be changing brake pads and air filters on giffer-driven Micras and Notes.

But I'll take a look at what's behind those shock tower covers (if it ever stops raining) - cheers for the heads-up!

 

15 hours ago, Jimbob McGregor said:

17 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

Spark plugs on Subarus…I’ve found that it helps to have a trolley jack/wooden block under the sump and slacken/release the odd engine mount allows you to tilt the engine enough to get the awkward plugs out/in.

That's good to know - though also underlines the problem I've bumped up against repeatedly when working on my assorted nails; not having a garage or hardstanding area to work on a car limits what I can do easily... I don't trust my cheapo Hopkirk ramps on a vehicle as heavy as the Forester (nearly 2 tons), and a gravel drive is a bugger to use a trolley jack on (see the Great Unpleasantness with the silver Laguna, many pages back, where I managed to break a chunk of sill off because the jack couldn't roll back).

 

16 hours ago, artdjones said:

Just remember to save the old cat. Elderly Japanese cats can be worth surprising amounts of money. There's usually a couple of lads on Done Deal looking to buy them. 

Ideally I'll be keeping the cat on it and adding a sensor spacer at the back, should rehabilitation be feasible - but if it does end up having to go for parts, I'll be sure to either remove it myself or price into the overall asking amount. I'm aware that Honda items go for substantial sums!

 

16 hours ago, Split_Pin said:

I'm  just wondering if the sensor on the block is for the ECU to tell it how hot or cold the engine is.

The switch you replaced could be controlled by a separate control unit rather than by a sensor on the radiator perhaps? I know my old Astra was like that. Pre 01 models had the traditional brass sensor that screws into the radiator and controls the fan switch but later ones like mine had a control unit to decide what happens. All rather unnecessary and they did tend to go a bit senile meaning the fan came in all the time. 

But ignoring it is definitely  what I'd do anyway.

Yeah, there seems to be a block sensor that connects to the fan motor, and then another block sensor that runs into the general wiring loom to the cabin - so it must connect to the ECU somewhere along the line, presumably. I can't see a sensor on the radiator itself, oddly.

Since the fan kicks in even when the temperature indicator on the dash is showing 'cold', I'd assumed that the sensor that gives the dash readout is correct, and it's the block sensor for the fan causing the bother.

It's been bugging me for years because it seems like it should be a simple enough thing to sort, but every time I screw up my resolve and lift the bonnet, I end up becoming monumentally confused.

Unless it's a fault with the fan motor, now I think about it... maybe something shorting?

The Haynes Manual for the Yaris is something that bugs the life out of me; I vastly prefer the older type that provided neat line-drawings showing exploded diagrams of systems, but all there is here are a selection of grainy, dark, smudgy, postage stamp sized photographs that reveal nothing of any use, and then the text fails to help either cos it'll just say something like "remove the sensor as shown in Fig. 4.11"

Figure 4.11:

[chaseracer]

Does Sam Pepys have a view on this? 😉

[Samuel_Pepys_Esq]

Faith, I hath not seen such Oriental confuzzlement since I didst partake one nyght of a surfeit of rice-wine with some Dutch traders just return'd from Dejima, that didst cause me conniptions most lamentable...

I wouldst sack the fucker off, and set mine eye to northerne climes for a conveyance that doth not rotte for funn, nor payne thine eyes with such a pratabout of an EML.

I coulds't scarce countenance havyng to gette out to bawl thy order whence at Mr. McDonyld's celebrat'd dryve-thru, akin to a fish-wyfe of easy virtue, acause thy glazings retract not.

Fucke thatte.

[motorpunk]

5 hours ago, Samuel_Pepys_Esq said:

Faith, I hath not seen such Oriental confuzzlement since I didst partake one nyght of a surfeit of rice-wine with some Dutch traders just return'd from Dejima, that didst cause me conniptions most lamentable...

I wouldst sack the fucker off, and set mine eye to northerne climes for a conveyance that doth not rotte for funn, nor payne thine eyes with such a pratabout of an EML.

I coulds't scarce countenance havyng to gette out to bawl thy order whence at Mr. McDonyld's celebrat'd dryve-thru, akin to a fish-wyfe of easy virtue, acause thy glazings retract not.

Fucke thatte.

Absolutely fantastic. Please only post in this style forevermore. 

[Datsuncog]

Well kids, another day, another round of Subaru fun and games.

Just to recap, last month I became aware of a peculiar tilt to the Forester's steering wheel, followed a few hours later by an odd 'loose' feel to the front suspension. A quick roadside investigation (dressed as I was for a funeral) revealed mucho rot to the offside control arm, which had rusted right the way through, to my great alarm.

Yum, crusty.

I nursed the car home, fastidiously avoiding my planned motorway route, and phoned a trustworthy local mechanic to get it booked in for a full appraisal. Annoyingly though, he was all booked up for a month. Unsure of whether the arm was simply weakened or in danger of imminent failure, I really didn't want to risk taking it any further afield. I took the first available appointment and sacked off the MOT due for mid-October, since it clearly had no mission of passing in that state. So it hasn't turned a wheel since, other than swapping the cars over on the driveway.

Today dawned the day for the mechanic's appointment... and a grey, wet dawn it was too.

I pulled all the detritus out of the boot and flattened the seats, so I could sling my old pushbike in the back to get me home again.

As ever, it started just fine with that lovely flat-four whurble-whurble rumble, plus the EML still shining merrily, and I drove it oh-so-carefully down the road to the garage, using engine braking and gentle steering to avoid putting too much load on the front end. Because traffic was quite heavy, I was moving at a crawl for much of the time.

The road in and out of the semi-derelict former industrial site where the garage is located is, unfortunately, dismal - and there are a number of quite hefty speed bumps to be navigated.

But I was very pleased to arrive and park up without anything untoward occurring, and retrieved my bike from the boot.

The garage owner found my booking paperwork, and I advised what the score was - it needed a control arm and set of droplinks at the very least, but I'd rather he take a good poke around underneath first to check there wasn't anything more terminal lurking, especially around the rear subframe and shock turrets. If all seemed sound enough to pass an MOT, then I was happy for him to go ahead with the work - but if not, just to leave it and I'd pay him for his time.

Hearteningly, he then related a tale of a similarly-aged Forester in with him only a fortnight ago because of an EML showing, which turned out to have a rear subframe so rotten he was able to crunch his thumb through it...

Probably noticing my eyes rolling back in my head a bit, he then proposed to hoick it up on the four-post there and then, so we could both have a look and agree a sensible course of action. I handed him the keys, and waited for him to drive it back into the workshop.

And waited. And waited.

He came back on foot.

"Erm... you'll never guess. I was just bringing her round, and the front end dropped..."

Well, fuckaroonie.

Yeah, that's not really great, is it?

Had he managed to make it another ten feet back onto the hardstanding concrete, then it could have had a dolly shoved under the broken front end to help tow/manoeuvre it - but, with it currently resting on gravel and weighing the best part of two tonnes, that wasn't really going to happen.

The proposed solution reached was for the garage to ring up a lad with a long-reach forklift, and get him to come out and shift it off the gravel (and out of the way of the garage entrance, which it was currently blocking) so they could take a proper look at it and pronounce its fate.

Although Garage Blokey was perfectly jovial about it all, I'm sure the last thing he needed on a wet Thursday morning was an encounter with the ever-hapless DC and his shitty fleet of fuckedness... he also informed me that the clutch is going, but then he told me that three and a half years ago, and I've not noticed any difference in the interim. It's just heavy and a bit awkward, hence only a handful of UK cars ever being spec'd with the manual box. It's still not as bad as my Cortina was, mind.

So, I pedalled off into the rain, unaware that I was about to teach myself the salutary lesson that while you may never forget how to ride a bike, managing to pedal it two miles uphill while being a fat fuck over forty is a different matter...

I wibbled upstairs on my damp jelly-legs to deliver the less-than-brilliant news to MrsDC, and I'm now playing the waiting game to see what the next step is - either that it's all reasonable underneath and a repair is possible, or if it's totally fucking fucked m8, big time.

If I were more of a betting man, I'd be laying a silver sixpence on the latter outcome...

On the not unreasonable assumption that it's a gonner, my plan had been to flog it on as a spares or repairs project - the turbo engine and manual gearbox, being roughly the same as the Impreza WRX, could probably generate a bit of interest, and the cat's likely worth some wedge as an early 2000s Japanese item.

But if it's not even mobile, now... argh.

We'll see. We'll see. But I'm under no illusions, this could well be the end of the rainbow for the Scoob...

Stay tuned, kids.

[dave j]

Bloody hell, at least you saw sense to avoid the motorway last time you drove it, would not have been fun if that happened at 70mph! I was only thinking the other day that Foresters are thin on the ground now, maybe this is why! I used to have a T reg one and quite liked it

[Datsuncog]

1 hour ago, dave j said:

Bloody hell, at least you saw sense to avoid the motorway last time you drove it, would not have been fun if that happened at 70mph!

Yep, that could have got a bit hairy if the arm had suddenly let go in Lane 4 of the M2!

I'd thought I was maybe overreacting, but it really does appear there was only a few corners left in the component before it failed entirely. Yikes... now there's a lesson.

😬

1 hour ago, dave j said:

I was only thinking the other day that Foresters are thin on the ground now, maybe this is why! I used to have a T reg one and quite liked it

Agreed; there used to be a fair few locally, but now I only know of two knocking about.

Kinda the same way that there were still a fair few Laguna 1s kicking around at the point I was running mine c.2014, but I haven't seen any now for a few years - there must come a point where the only ones left are the really cossetted examples, and they do so few miles that they're rarely seen on the road.  The high-mile dailies, the station hacks and the winter beaters - like mine - eventually just fade out...

And they really are nice things to drive, Foresters - very chuckable and capable, with bags of oomph from the turbo, and plenty of space inside too. The ride and handling were transformed when I fitted it with a matched set of Bridgestones all round - previously it had a pair of Nankangs or something on the front, and two different budget tyres on the back, and apparently the AWD system doesn't much care for mixed rubber.

If its time's really up, I'll miss it.

[RoadworkUK]

2 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

 

STANCE YO, innit.

"All major work done"

Worth faaasands.

[Split_Pin]

Ach that is suboptimal Tim, I'm glad it failed where it did and not at speed, that doesn't bear thinking about. I guess stresses on chassis components are greater at lower speeds where there's more resistance and less momentum to absorb the lateral forces (like I know what I'm talking about).

Hopefully the old girl has a few years left yet but it's firmly put Subarus off my radar for good with the tales of corrosion.

[Datsuncog]

Yeah, I'm not sure whether I was just incredibly lucky to make it down in one piece, or if the lad from the garage was a bit too heavy on the steering while manoeuvering it - though either way, it was plainly beyond help.

I certainly don't blame you for being put off Subarus, though - I know my opinions of Mazda took a nosedive when a friend's GG1 series Mazda 6 developed terminal rot while still comparatively young, and many Italian cars are still dogged by folk memories from the 70s and 80s of dissolving metalwork... on the other hand, a lifespan of 18 years isn't bad going - especially since this one's had eight previous owners, and appears to have lived mostly outside. It hasn't been cossetted, that's for sure. 

I probably would have another one - but at the same time, I do get itchy for a change, sometimes...

Still waiting on the all-important update from the garage, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself!

[abelw44]

Realise I'm late to the party, but I only just caught up on the post about the alarm on the Forester, which had me convulsing with silent mirth like and absolute lunatic in a coffee shop - absolutely brilliantly written!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Dobloseven]

According to Wikipedia, the 2.5 litre Forester of that era has a kerbweight of 1474kg which makes it quite a lightweight by modern standards. We've a 2015 Korando which is 1750kg and by no means a big car. Seems most steering/suspension failures happen at low speeds. I'm old enough to remember when Morris Minors were regularly seen stranded halfway round urban street corners with one front wheel at a jaunty angle. 

[hairnet]

buy the 107 on here obvs

that looks like thered be similar underneath not far away

 

[somewhatfoolish]

James Brown is warming up for this one.

[hairnet]

@R9UKE have ye a nice french car you could sell hum

 

[Shite Ron]

On 10/23/2021 at 8:19 PM, Dobloseven said:

According to Wikipedia, the 2.5 litre Forester of that era has a kerbweight of 1474kg which makes it quite a lightweight by modern standards. We've a 2015 Korando which is 1750kg and by no means a big car. Seems most steering/suspension failures happen at low speeds. I'm old enough to remember when Morris Minors were regularly seen stranded halfway round urban street corners with one front wheel at a jaunty angle. 

Having read this thread and seen the pictures I doubt there are many that still weigh 1474kg. They will be a fair bit lighter after the metal maggots have had a good go at them. 
I also remember seeing a Morris Minor with the wheel at a jaunty angle,  Talbot Horizons also failed in the same way.

[Datsuncog]

Just idly trawling the dregs of local motoring misery online, while I wait for the Mechanic of Choice to give a final pronouncement on the Forester's fate...

Seems that at the moment, about £550 is the absolute bottom end of the market for something that's legal and isn't suffering from any sort of major (declared) fault; even if some of the offerings are highly unappetising, or only have a confidence-sucking fortnight's worth of MOT left on them...

Volkswagen lupo | in Comber, County Down | Gumtree

Nissan ALMERA SE Hatchback, 2003, Automatic, 1769cc, 5 doors | in Killinchy, County Down | Gumtree

 

This one's nice, I assume the Perspex windows stuck in with Tiger Seal is for weight-saving purposes:

Rare xsara for sale | in Newtownards, County Down | Gumtree

 

Could be a massive liability, or a decent runner. Not sure if I could live with the scuttle shake, mind.

SAAB 9-3 convertible £600 ono | in Newtownabbey, County Antrim | Gumtree

 

Probably getting more into the sort of thing I'd want to be driving - a car that can swallow breezeblocks in quantity and strap ladders to the roof:

Hyundai Tucson 2006, 2.0 GSI | in Banbridge, County Down | Gumtree

Skoda Octavia Estate, 1.9TDI, LONG MOT | in Lurgan, County Armagh | Gumtree

Saab, 9-3, Sportwagon Vector Sport, 2006, Manual, 1910 (cc), 5 doors | in Malone, Belfast | Gumtree

 

Realistically then, we'd be talking £600-£900 for something even approaching Forester attributes... well, that gives me a kind of a baseline when weighing up how much is worth sinking into repairing the Subaru, if anything...