Modern car advice! Any modern mechanics got any ideas? Now Sorted.

[danthecapriman]

Just after some advice on a modern.

 

My mum has an 02 reg Focus. It's getting on a bit and has high(ish) mileage. So she and my dad have gone out and bought an 08 reg Focus 1.8 (duratec), nice car, low miles, history all that crap.

 

But,

It's developed a problem where when you come off the gas it almost stumbles/misfires/loses power for a second or two then it picks up to normal again. It drives well other than this, accelerates easily and cleanly etc. There's no EML on either but the problem is very obvious.

 

It has been almost a week since purchase, the car hasn't been used much since as the old Focus is still in use.

Today, my dad took it to the garage he knows and trusts to have a quick look.

The garage have said there is undoubtedly a problem with it, and should of thrown up it's EML and a code.

However, it hasn't. So he suggested it's very likely the seller has cleared the fault codes and switched the EML off to sell the car! Very underhand in my opinion.

They said the only way to find the fault and fix it would be to start taking it apart and changing parts until it cures the fault or wait for the EML to come back on, which so far it hasn't? Could someone do something to the car to prevent the light coming on? As I'm positive it should be on given how it's running!

 

So, what should we do?

I've advised my dad to ring the seller and insist it gets fixed or a full refund. If the seller plays up then threaten trading standards etc etc as he's a dealer.

Obviously my mum isn't pleased as the point was to get something newer and reliable as she needs to cover a bit of mileage in her new job. So far the old car is proving far better than the new one.

 

Does anyone have any idea what this fault could be?

Modern stuff really isn't my thing tbh and it's been a while since I've had much to do with them! Are these engines shit, or is there a known issue with them?

[stripped fred]

Call trading standards for some advice and get it straight back to the dealer.

[danthecapriman]

Btw, when I say dealer I mean one guy who sells cars on his own based from his house!

We have his name, address and the name and address of the garage he uses to do any work.

 

Not that this should have any bearing on his character etc but he's a Polish guy and his mate (also Polish) owns the garage that did the last service and therefore most probably cleared the fault codes and turned off the EML!

 

Before he bought the car, my dad did an online check on it, checked the mot history etc to confirm the car was what it said it was and the mileage on mots etc. it appeared a decent car on the face of it.

When my dad went to see it, the seller said the come at about 15:30ish. My dad said he couldn't test drive it far as the roads (middle of Southampton) were very busy with school traffic and there wasn't much fuel in the car! Coincidence? Deliberate?

[nacho man]

What does this mechanic do when a car comes in that doesn't have a eml.

 

However, take it back to the dealer, and get them to sort it.

 

 

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[Bobthebeard]

I wasn't aware that the EML could be turned off as such. Faults cleared would extinguish the light but wouldn't it just come back on again if the fault persisted? Just a thought.... Could well be wrong of course!

[Bren]

A blocked egr doesn't always turn on the light and can give the problems you describe.

[danthecapriman]

What does this mechanic do when a car comes in that doesn't have a eml.

However, take it back to the dealer, and get them to sort it.

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My dad told the garage to have a look at it and and confirm the problem and attempt to find any fault on the ECU, but obviously didn't want them to go too far because of the cost of diagnosis/work on a car that might be going back to the seller. Plus, if his mechanic looks at it and finds evidence of someone else poking around with it maybe that could weaken the case for a refund or repair?

 

I wasn't aware that the EML could be turned off as such. Faults cleared would extinguish the light but wouldn't it just come back on again if the fault persisted? Just a thought.... Could well be wrong of course!

This is what I thought! If there's a fault the code(s) are saved and EML comes on. Then once the problem is repaired and old codes deleted it goes out.

I can't understand why the EML isn't coming on as the problem appears bad enough to warrant the EML being on!

Has someone done something to it to make the EML stay off?

 

Would trading standards take this on? Or just say fuck off, sold as seen etc? I might just have a suspicious mind and always see the worst in people, but there's something not right about this to me.

[Bren]

I wouldn't go in all guns blazing - just tell them about the problem and take it from there.

[mercrocker]

I am pretty sure TS would be interested.....Knocking out motors on your own from a private address doesn't make him any less of a trader.   Longer this is left the more difficult it will be probably.   I would be up for telling the taxman too but I am probably a bit of a twat for suggesting that.   Think your instinct to not tinker further is probably a good one.  

[danthecapriman]

A blocked egr doesn't always turn on the light and can give the problems you describe.

This sounds like a good shout! I've just done a quick google search and it sounds like a good possibility. But, most cases seem to throw up the EML?

 

I am pretty sure TS would be interested.....Knocking out motors on your own from a private address doesn't make him any less of a trader.   Longer this is left the more difficult it will be probably.   I would be up for telling the taxman too but I am probably a bit of a twat for suggesting that.   Think your instinct to not tinker further is probably a good one.

 

If your a twat then so am I! I was thinking about the tax man myself to get him back if it came to it!!

But yes, I think your right, it does need dealing with sooner rather than later. And I don't like the idea of messing with it myself or getting another garage involved. I don't think it will help with any come back on the seller.

[SiC]

Despite what the garage say, don't always assume a problem will trigger an EML. Also don't assume that the engine hasn't got a code stored if the EML is not lit.

 

Most modern vehicles have effectively 2 types of error code memory. The first is OBD - which you can pick up with cheap scanners. The second is proprietary - which needs brand specific scanners. A lot of the proprietary codes may not throw up the EML.

 

A few things to check:

- I believe this engine has a EGR valve - check that this is clean. The symptoms sound very much like EGR sticking.

- Check that the Throttle Body isn't dirty.

- Check the MAP sensor isn't dirty and gives plausible values if it has MAP. Likewise the MAF is it has one of them instead.

- Check that the Intake Air Temperature and the Coolant Temperatures are plausible.

- Check the air filter isn't filthy - especially if its main dealer serviced, as some are terrible in skipping this on a service (despite the customer paying for it)

- Check the condition of the plugs.

 

Checking the values of the sensors can be done with a OBD tool - generic ones should do the above sensors just fine.

[SiC]

I'd let the seller know anyway, as if you do ever want comeback, then you'll need to make sure they have a chance in fixing it. A lot of traders buy cars in without even road testing them. Just another widget to buy in for x price and sell on for x + profit. Nothing wrong with this, and usually need a quantity of cars to go through to make a living.

 

Remember a lot of these traders buy from auctions, and someone has sold it to a trader in the first place for a reason! Could be that they're bored of it, need a bigger car, etc or broken.

 

Personally doesn't sound* like a terminal problem.

[Bobthebeard]

First course of action would be IMHO to make the seller aware of the problem nicely and give him the chance to fix it before getting too heavy/angry. Obviously if he refuses then another course of action may be needed.

I would also be very wary of the ' the seller did this to sell it' kind of thing from another garage. The seed of suspicion once planted soon grows into anger, even if not true.

Give the seller an opportunity to fix it and take it from there really....

 

Edit. ^^ beaten to it. What he said really.

[SiC]

Another thought, if its low mileage, then its probably done a lot of short journeys and low speeds - this is known to clog up EGRs...

[danthecapriman]

First course of action would be IMHO to make the seller aware of the problem nicely and give him the chance to fix it before getting too heavy/angry. Obviously if he refuses then another course of action may be needed.

I would also be very wary of the ' the seller did this to sell it' kind of thing from another garage. The seed of suspicion once planted soon grows into anger, even if not true.

Give the seller an opportunity to fix it and take it from there really....

Edit. ^^ beaten to it. What he said really.

Absolutely agree. And this will be the first thing to do. It's probably nothing sinister going on but you do wonder sometimes. The seller apparently seemed a nice guy, didn't have any issue letting his home address be known etc.

 

Another thought, if its low mileage, then its probably done a lot of short journeys and low speeds - this is known to clog up EGRs...

This egr thing sounds about right. It's an 08 reg, only done 46K from new so certainly sounds about right.

 

I'm not too up on moderns tbh! Last time I worked on cars for a living cars like my mums 02 reg Focus were new and things have moved on a lot since then, and I really hate modern stuff anyway! I take almost no interest in them at all.

Carbs and points for me!

[danthecapriman]

One other thing, when the problem occurs you can hear a faint metallic sounding tap. Almost like it's pinking or the exhaust has banged against something. It's not particularly loud sound and sometimes difficult to detect but always seems to be there when this problem occurs. Related?

[Urko]

My local garage have a laptop they can plug into the obd port so they can monitor stuff in real time - they used it once to help find a blocked cat on one of my lld VAG heaps.

[HH-R]

Is it a petrol or diseasel? Had this before with a petrol and no EML.

[PiperCub]

As others have said, go and talk to the guy, explain the issue and give him a chance to sort it out. If he gives it the sloping-shoulders 'Not-my-problem' routine, then it's time to go to T/S (& the taxman if you're really pissed off). Chances are he will make an effort to sort it as he probably realises that word travels fast and bad news is quicker and he'll rely on a good reputation if he wants to carry on his little business and stay under the radar (of T/S, Johnny Taxman etc). 

[chodweaver]

From the Fiesta I had with EGR, the valve can be sticking and affecting running, but if it hasn't failed the test at startup - of opening and closing, the EML is not lit. If it doesn't complete this movement at startup, then the EML will go on, but if the car completes another 7 startup cycles without the error reoccurring, the EML is turned off again.

I think...

 

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[Guest bangerfan101]

Tell him to pedal off home. Then stand back as pedal means Gay boy in polski

[Parky]

No EML light could in fact signify no EML bulb....

[danthecapriman]

Is it a petrol or diseasel? Had this before with a petrol and no EML.

1.8 duratec, Petrol.

 

 

Just spoken to my dad, he's calling the seller shortly. Told him to be calm and reasonable in the first instance. Balling at someone straight away isn't going to make them want to help you!

Have to see what happens this evening...

[danthecapriman]

From the Fiesta I had with EGR, the valve can be sticking and affecting running, but if it hasn't failed the test at startup - of opening and closing, the EML is not lit. If it doesn't complete this movement at startup, then the EML will go on, but if the car completes another 7 startup cycles without the error reoccurring, the EML is turned off again.

I think...

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Interesting. Maybe why there's no light on the dash.

 

So, dumb question. What does the EGR actually do? Presumably some form of little solenoid type thing used for emission control? Like I said, old cars are my thing!

[Urko]

Yep, exhaust gas recirculation - sends some exhaust gases back in for another go. The one on my 1.6 petrol VAG chod stripped its crappy nylon gears (although that put the eml on) common VAG fault dunno about the Ford ones.

[SiC]

Interesting. Maybe why there's no light on the dash.

 

So, dumb question. What does the EGR actually do? Presumably some form of little solenoid type thing used for emission control? Like I said, old cars are my thing!

Unlikey, as LED 'bulbs' on modern cars are soldered into the dashboard and not replaceable, so would require desoldering. Plus you'd soon know as when you turn the ignition on, the EML should light and extinguish when you turn the ignition on and start it.

 

EGR is a valve to recirculate the exhaust gases. It's a way of reducing harmful NOX emissions. They have a plunger that is either controlled by a motor or by a vacuum. As they're in the exhaust stream, they can build up with soot and jam/stick - effectively creating a big air leak in the intake system if it sticks/jams at the wrong time.

[danthecapriman]

My dads just spoken to the seller. He's apologised and seems genuinely concerned, which is good. He's going to have a chat with his mechanic tomorrow and arrange a time to get it back and have a look at it. Seems very reasonable honestly.

 

With any luck he'll be able to sort it and all will be well. Watch this space.

[Jazoli]

I don't know why so many folk are saying contact Trading Standards, they have no teeth and can do the square root of fuck all most of the time, they have no real powers anyway and a guy selling cars from his house will just laugh and carry on.

 

Best bet is to give the seller a chance to sort it first, then if he's not playing ball get it on a proper diagnostic machine and get it sorted, it probably won't be that expensive to fix, the car should have been cheaper than buying from a main dealer, anyone buying from a sole trader such as this takes almost the same risk as buying privately and should have a contingency in place regardless of what the law says is right or wrong, been there done that.

 

Edit, was typing this whilst the above reply was posted, a good result, so far.

[Bobthebeard]

My dads just spoken to the seller. He's apologised and seems genuinely concerned, which is good. He's going to have a chat with his mechanic tomorrow and arrange a time to get it back and have a look at it. Seems very reasonable honestly.

With any luck he'll be able to sort it and all will be well. Watch this space.

Nice. Hopefully a storm in a teacup kind of thing, and all will be sorted for your dad.

Better than getting all 'Trading Standards and Taxman' if it gets resolved peacefully.

[HH-R]

Urgh, petrols have EGR valves now??

 

When I had it it as a f0rked camshaft sensor. Or rather the wiring to it.