Xantia v Pug 405........

[dugong]

PS Dugong - you're so right about all that wubber!

I was right about you being a tedious purist, I'm not sure about the rest of it.

[Lankytim]

These cars are so old now, i'd just go on price and condition rather than a particular model. 

[dugong]

It has to be said though, the current C5 on coils is one of the most comfortable cars I've ever driven, run pretty close by a Jaguar X300.

Both over-rated - although at least the Jag stands a gnat's cock of a chance of starting in the morning. The current C5 is an even more cynical A6 copy than the Insignia. WHAT IS POINT.

[Bren]

Never had a 405.

 

Xantia = superb.

 

New spheres make a world of difference to the ride, the car itself is pretty rot resistant, the only grief you get is generally electrical.

[forddeliveryboy]

Like with all liquid suspended Citroens I've ever been in, the ride was disappointing in so far, that it was not superior to a conventionally sprung car,

which manifests the pointlessness of the concept.

 

 

Missing the point, I'd say. The idea behind the suspension was to improve on steel springs, in the same way as progressive manufacturers replaced cable and rod brakes with hydraulic ones. For a start, to maintain better grip to the road - ie the contact pressures between the tyres and the tarmac would be higher (other than on a totally smooth road at low speed). In the same way a more efficient engine is both faster and potentially more economical, you can't always have both at the same time, especially with cheap-thrills driving.

 

Beyond the better grip inherent with compressed gas springing, using variable-length liquid pushrods meant the springs didn't have to support the mass of the car, maintained the geometries irrespective of load, same for the aerodynamics (which weren't even a consideration for the Mercedes and BMWs of the 50s, 60s and 70s to be fair) and replacement was a matter of minutes and unscrewing the balls rather than resembling a navvie building railways.

 

That you could match the springs to the physics rather than asking them to work well with no load as well as preventing the floor scraping the ground when fully-loaded, meant comfort was a pleasant side-effect. Since road speeds (and roads) in England were so low compared with France in the 50s and 60s meant that the marketing dept used the comfort as the raison d'etre of this new suspension system.

 

Times have moved on - cornering faster at low speeds is much more important and higher speeds are usually on smooth motorways. The original Citroën system wasn't developed at all, other than the slightly cack-handed Hydractive. Instead, it was an Aussie Art College lecturer who saw the potential and sold his Kinetic Suspension business to the US for tens of millions, having proved its worth on the Peugeot-Citroen rally cars with Loeb at the wheel. It's now used by Toyota and McLaren, amongst others.

[Squarepegroundhole]

I had a Xantia, it was nice, nothing more to say. 

 

 

[forddeliveryboy]

Both over-rated - although at least the Jag stands a gnat's cock of a chance of starting in the morning. The current C5 is an even more cynical A6 copy than the Insignia. WHAT IS POINT.

 

It's better and cheaper than an A6. Why no simply do what the Japs did and copy and improve? - Citroen today has no heritage or image to maintain.

[dugong]

It's better and cheaper than an A6. Why no simply do what the Japs did and copy and improve? - Citroen today has no heritage or image to maintain.

No, an A6 is shit. Why would you want to copy something shit? The end result is something even worse.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

405's can do lift off oversteer and handbrake turns which is the only way that Devil wheel drive is acceptable.

 

If you must have green Vulcan spunk stains on your drive,buy a 4x4 405 ,the best* of both worlds.

A typical 405- driven by Ari

A typical Xantia- driven by Billy

[forddeliveryboy]

It isn't a system without faults, that's for sure. My XM is pretty good (I think the spheres are a bit tired) but it still thumps over potholes. It must be a Citroen thing as 2CVs don't have liquid suspension, yet still thump over potholes. The rest of the time though, I find hydro utterly superb in the way it makes roads uncannily smooth. In just the way a Daihatsu Sirion doesn't. Like a Mini, that revealed to be bumps in the road that I didn't realise were there.

 

It has to be said though, the current C5 on coils is one of the most comfortable cars I've ever driven, run pretty close by a Jaguar X300. 

 

Two different things here - gas over oil suspension transmits sharp shocks more sharply than metal springs. The system wasn't designed with the idea of 50-profile tyres and stiff springing being used with a load of corrupting rubber bushes elsewhere in the suspension to mollify the effect.

 

The 2cv actually rides potholes quite well if it's working correctly, to the extent you can dent wheelrims without having any idea the road was so bad. But few are working correctly, today. They're more complex than most would ever believe and have no right to work as superbly as they can. I've driven some which are so horrid you've wanted to get out and walk. I once did. But their owners adore them, leaving me speechless.

[forddeliveryboy]

No, an A6 is shit. Why would you want to copy something shit? The end result is something even worse.

 

It may well be, but Audis are selling well. Thinking you know better than the buying pubic is what eventually got engineering-obsessed companies like Citroën into their coffin.

[forddeliveryboy]

I was right about you being a tedious purist, I'm not sure about the rest of it.

 

 

Och, c'mon - it seems you've still not forgiven me for taking you to task for being such a tedious curmudgeon (not that I called you such to your face) a few months ago, simply coz I like my old Cits. Lighten up a little, try to dwell on the bits where I say I'd prefer a Pug more than a Xantia.

[Junkman]

Why no simply do what the Japs did and copy and improve?

 

I have yet to see where the Jinks improved anything.

[chaseracer]

Billy's selling a Xantia, rumour has it.

[Junkman]

^^

There.

Thread can be closed.

[forddeliveryboy]

I have yet to see where the Jinks improved anything.

 

 

Mmm. That's a very good point.

[Sigmund Fraud]

I'm a huge fan of hydropneumatic Citroens, but I have to agree that their "magic carpet" reputation is an exaggeration. In fact, they are quite bouncy around town, where speeds are low and potholes are deep. And this applies not only to dog-eared examples, like my old BX, but also to the brand-new Xantia that Mr.Fraud_Sr wasted his money on back in the 1990s.

 

They're amazingly comfortable at higher speeds, though, and the handling can be very entertaining if you're brave/mad enough. The equivalent Peugeots are almost as good on the road and never leak LHM all over your driveway, but I would still choose the hydro Citroen over them !

[Fabergé Greggs]

I love the BX cos it does funny things like going up and down and it's a wedge like all the best cars. My dad told me today that his DS never stopped amusing him in the same way and that made me feel fuzzy. 

[dollywobbler]

I still get a thrill every time my XM rises into the air. Having owned hydro-Cits on and off since 1999, you'd think I'd grow out of it. Nope!

[Asimo]

I was lucky enough to have a BX from new; the ride was good but it was not a refined car and when a bump makes a crashy noise it detracts a lot from appreciating the smooth ride.

The unrefinedness may be because Hydro Citroens and 2CV family have zero compliance in most of their suspension bearings ie trailing arms running on taper roller bearings. No isolating rubber squidgy bushes!

I think the BX's Hydro was worth it for the brakes and the self levelling / stability.

 

Steel springs can give a fantasticaly comfortable ride, try a Renault 20.

[madwelshman]

405 every time for me. My last (1991) 1.9i GTX saloon was a lovely car and in black, it looked gorgeous as well. The seats from my previous GTX are in my Avenger now. Hell they're comfy.

[PiperCub]

Both are good, the 405 might edge it on 'Less hassle' though.

 

I'd have thought getting a decent example of either nowadays might be a bit of a challenge, they certainly have largely disappeared from my area where they used to be pretty common, esp the 405. A 406 (same engine) is a good alternative, mine's been excellent so far.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

My brother had a Xantia VSX diesel in the '90s. He got it at Fords of Winsford and paid peanuts for it, even though it was almost new. He liked it. I liked it too. I thought it had a decent ride  (though not quite so amazing as I expected), was luxurious and felt well put together. The suspension failed unfortunately and he traded it in to Mangoletsi Alfa Romeo, who still had it a year later when I passed their place.

[warren t claim]

I managed to kill an XUD powered Xantia by blasting a fuck off big hole in the block. I'm not sure how this happened, maybe it was caused by me spending much of my life in the WA14/M33 area and having a soft spot for the Volvo 480.

 

The 405 has ICD Roadhandling System which swings it for me.

[Junkman]

The 405 has ICD Roadhandling System which swings it for me.

 

There is a TLA for EFT, gotta love them. Junkfather's Cadillac was an STS and had RTS.

WTF does all this mean in TRW?

[warren t claim]

According to the advert the 405 takes your breath away. A bit like COPD but with a creaky dash instead of a cough.

[dollywobbler]

I managed to kill an XUD powered Xantia by blasting a fuck off big hole in the block. I'm not sure how this happened, maybe it was caused by me spending much of my life in the WA14/M33 area and having a soft spot for the Volvo 480.

 

The 405 has ICD Roadhandling System which swings it for me.

 

Funnily enough, a friend managed this with an XUDT in a 306. Managed to punch a con rod through the block! Gawd knows what caused it. Perhaps not so bulletproof.

[Rocket88]

405 wins then...........................are 406s that much more complicated / unreliable?

[Lacquer Peel]

There was a run of bad XUDs around 97/98 IIRC, any dud ones should be long gone.

[warren t claim]

There was a run of bad XUDs around 97/98 IIRC, any dud ones should be long gone.

Oddly enough the Xantia was S reg, only five years old at the time.