You can take the boy out of the shite, but you can't take the shite out of the boy

[garethj]

I was pondering this as I was driving around the M25 yesterday, leaving a decent braking distance to the car in front.  When you've driven a large number of ropey old cars you know that hitting the brakes hard can be a dangerous thing; that rear-left tyre doesn't have as much grip as the others, was that drum brake going to grab on one side, and how much stopping power can a set of 165 tyres provide anyway?

 

This kind of thing is probably hard wired into my head now, so I like to leave a gap between me and the car in front.  Not the full 2 seconds because I haz lightning fast reactions and that seems like an unfeasibly large gap these days.  So my gap is just over half that, zipping along at around 70mph with hundreds of other people.  I'm in Mrs_garethj's Jaguar with large, grippy tyres, massive disc brakes, ABS and I'm really concentrating to keep a tight gap.

 

 

 

So why is there always someone who cuts into my braking gap?  How can they fit into a space leaving a braking distance less than half of mine?  The only thing I can imagine is they don't have the old shite factor built in so they know they can stop in time.

 

Of course when they accelerate into the space in front of me they're almost up the chuff of the car in front so the first thing they have to do is hit the brakes.  My normal gap means I can usually just lift off the throttle to slow down, but now I have to brake too which sets up a nice ripple down the traffic queue behind.

 

And it's not just on motorways, what makes people drive around almost blind corners much faster than me?  When I can see far enough I love a bit of speed, I've had fast cars and very fast bikes and they've all gone much faster than speed limits.  But when the roads are really tight there's no way I'd go fast; I couldn't be sure that the dampers would glue me to the road, the brakes would pull up straight or the car would spin horribly if I jam on the brakes with the steering wheel turned.

 

This fear is probably what helped when I started riding bikes, the instructor told us all several times that if you brake when steering on 2 wheels the front would slide "and you aren't good enough to catch a front wheel skid".  But after owning several swing axle cars I knew with arse-clenching certainty that braking with steering lock applied was a bad thing.

 

I'm also usually disappointed when I look over my shoulder in a modern car and all I see is some headrests and roof lining.  But let's be honest, it's decades since Michelotti did narrow screen pillars but I still think that being able to see out is A Good Thing, not some freaky concept.

 

And... breathe....

[tooSavvy]

Most heartening insight.....

 

*No, I'm not a gap filler &YES.... it boils my p*$$ too

 

 

TS

[Luckythirteen]

The gap divers must be right selfish bastards; it's patently obvious that doing so, causes a concertina of braking. Which if the circumstances are right, causes the cars at the back to almost come to a halt.

Same for the second/third lane to slip road wankers too.

No self discipline, and they're obviously more important than you. Or anyone.

[Guest Breadvan72]

Two secs still best. One sec not enough.

 

LJK Setright called for a special Circle of Hell for needless brake usage.

[garethj]

True, Dante would have put them below the sixth circle of hell next to the 14th century version of an estate agent.

[dollywobbler]

Two secs still best. One sec not enough.

 

LJK Setright called for a special Circle of Hell for needless brake usage.

 

Indeed. One of the best things Clarkson has ever said is that you should never have to brake on a motorway. Ok, so slowing down for a jam you might have to, but his point is very valid. A lot of jams are caused by nothing more than twats not paying attention and having to stamp on the middle pedal, causing a knock-on effect. It would all be fine if everyone watched far enough down the road to see slowing traffic and just ease off the throttle a bit.

[castros_bro]

In reality there are too many vehicles on some of the UK roads so the "Keep this Distance" and "use the outer lanes for overtaking" will never work properly as vehicles jocky for position.  A couple of weeks ago I tried a foreign motorway, at some points I was in the only vehicle in sight, I didn't need to change gear or use the brakes for 150Km, it was so relaxing I even enjoyed it unlike the M3 or M25.

[garethj]

This is a mathematical simulation, both fascinating and incredibly geeky

[Volksy]

I do a lot of motorway driving, and am generally focused on three or four cars in front. I keep a distance, and try not to brake unnecessarily. I'm generally in a Transit show rig, which has not a great turn of speed.

Too many people seem to just focus on the tail lights/back bumper of the car immediately in front - of which they're about 10mm off. Which causes the OMGPANIC when ever the brake lights come on.

Other gripes are when you come over the brow of a hill or long sweeping bend on a motorway and the OMGPANIC happens because they see the long line of cars in front - not braking, but all travelling at the same speed as them, but the sudden realisation that there is traffic in front of that tail light/bumper they have been focused on...

My Show rig maxes out at 80mph, which means I can overtake most things, but you get the people who (generally in the middle lane doing 68mph) feel that their HP mobile and ego shouldn't be overtaken by a van, so speed up as you try and get past, leaving me floundering about in the outside lane looking like a muppet. They then settle back into being a 68mph lane hogging zombie trance once I have pulled back in behind them. So then the dance* continues until they realise that their iphone requires attention and I can sneak past whilst they are texting/snapchatting looking at Plentyof Fish.

[mercrocker]

A lot of this really is down to the invincibility many modern drivers feel in their multi-airbagged safety cells.   A great many of them, probably approaching a majority by now, have NOT had the motoring upbringing many of us have had - its not just age but the driving of vehicles far older than those that most people begin with "out there".   And, if all they see behind them is, indeed, headrests and headlining then this just adds to the tank-like attitude some of them seem to have.  Their whole world is that blinkered forward vision framed by pillars the size of an athletes thighs, what they can see in their mirrors (if they are looking) and the drummed-in mantras of passive, rather than real-world seat of the pants, safety.   "Nothing bad can happen, I'm warm, my iPod is full of cheery tunes, cars are really safe now aren't they, mine is cocooned with faux leather and soft-touch materials and there aren't even any drunks any more....."

[gordonbennet]

Its all about attitude, and the modern attitude is increasingly FU i'm alright jack, i'm more important than you, my car/cock/job is bigger than yours so i am entitled.

 

Some of it is a national identity thing, we Brits have a taught from an early age or inbuilt/inbred sense of fair play and queueing, that is disappearing fast and has all but vanished in big cities, it used to be really noticeable that the queue jumpers and pushers in were found in London and the south east, or (crash helmet on) foreigners, well those big city dwellers moved away from the hell their homes became for a variety of reasons and its now widespread.

 

You'd think that self survival would ensure idiots didn't try to impale themselves under the wheels of full size lorries, in practice nothing could be further from the truth, but then modern lorry driving attitudes aint what they once were either.

 

City cyclists versus lorries is the most amazing, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, cyclist versus 20+ ton lorry only has one winner.

 

As with so many other things, we've seen the best days of motoring.

[HMC]

I suppose I'm essentially tight- stomping alternately on the brakes and accelerator drains the tank and ultimately causes more wear and tear. I keep up a decent cruising speed, mind.

 

On the subject of motorways what about the people who stay in the middle lane , then,maintaining a constant speed you pass them comfortably then get left, and they stay in the middle lane. Gradually adjust their speed to start to gain on you and then slow right down again now there's nobody to overtake once they've passed, all the while hogging the same lane. You then face undertaking them or having to go across all the lanes to pass - which kicks the whole thing off again. Grrr!

[dave21478]

ah fuck it. I started typing out a big reply about blah blah blah, but it can be abreviated down to this....

 

Other people are cunts.

[drum]

This is a mathematical simulation, both fascinating and incredibly geeky

That's brill. I've just spent 10 minutes changing the parameters to cause a virtual standstill and then changed them again to get free flowing traffic. Love it.

[John F]

Anyone caught hogging the middle lane of the motorway should be dragged from the driving seat & forced to watch their car being crushed there & then.

[Lord Sterling]

Unfortunately, the standard of driving in this country has got so bad that I'm surprised we don't have more accidents.

 

Many of today's drivers are only concerned for themselves, not you or anyone else in theier way. Many in society today have become so instantly judgemental, ignorant and up thier own arses that they really have no idea what "courtesy" actually means. Plus of course, because we drive old shite, we are nothing to them, we are simply peasants that get in thier way and should move out of the way so they can get to where they are going.

 

Britian isn't one of the worse places to drive by a long way, but it is the most stressful.

[Ronnie L]

Having spent my early motoring years driving 60's stuff with drums all round, no servo and cross-ply remoulds I still have a healthy respect for that gap between me and the next guy. I still get that feeling when I'm out driving my Willys Jeep. It's got 1940's drum brakes, no servo and no seat belts. The centre of the steering column is inches from my chest and the windscreen isn't much further away. This driving experience fairly keeps you on your toes. It's especially exciting when the rain comes on and you have to work the wipers manually with a handle. No sides, doors or roof also reminds me that there's nothing much between me and hard, fast-moving objects.

Despite (or because of) all of that it's still an absolutely joyful motoring experience on quiet country roads. Nothing modern comes close.  

[Taff]

Every fecker should, upon passing their driving test, get given a 1967 Morris Minor on crossply's. This will be their sole transport for the next 36 months.

 

You learn stacks about life in general and cars in particular when commuting 10 miles in a 1967 Morris minor on crossply's.

[vulgalour]

New drivers should start with something rubbish, they really should.  If I'd started my driving career in the sort of bleepy things I learned in I think I'd be a lot less cautious, a lot less observant and a lot more dangerous.

 

Are modern cars too safe?  Possibly.  But it's nice that people survive collisions now, look how horrific even minor bumps were in the 1950s!  Unfortunately, cars and their drivers don't seem to experience Darwinism properly, it always seems to be the ones taking the highest risks that survive and the ones taking the lowest that get wiped out by these morons, that's not how it should be.

 

I was fortunate to have a really good instructor pre-test, he was keen on stopping distances, observation and taking your time.  He was keen on defensive driving rather than aggressive driving but stamped on any sort of hesitation.  But other instructors I had were not so good at all, some even encouraging aggression in driving which was very counter-intuitive to me.

 

I'm not a perfect driver by any means, but simple things like paying attention to braking distances, using engine braking and observation rather than stamping on pedals and seeing far enough ahead to have the option of a get out if things do get a bit sticky really does help a lot.  One of the hardest things to teach yourself, though, is not to rubberneck, you're so much more likely to cram your car into something in front you've not seen.

 

Modern cars are quite difficult to drive, or rather they're quite difficult to drive safely.  Rear and peripheral vision is appalling in most and front visibility is the only concern.  Mirrors are large, but seem to show little and power and braking delivery is so massive for even tiny cars that you have no real concept of what you're in charge of.

 

I like that modern cars are less tiring to drive, that less effort is required to get from A to B but I hate the massive number of distractions, the woeful visibility and the inability to read the car and respond properly to the road.  It's important for a driver to feel how fast they are travelling and to feel vulnerable, especially since you're travelling in a small metal coffin propelled by explosions.

[PiperCub]

Merocker basically nailed it I think (& many of the other comments too), people have a cocooned mentality in modern cars with all their frills and driver aids and because they either never have driven anything old/shitey, they assume they are driving gods because they don't need to make the allowances we have to. The old line about removing seatbelts and putting a six inch spike on the steering wheel boss has some merits......

 

It's also amusing to explain to the I've-got-ABS-so-can-stop-anytime/anywhere about the fact that it's all very well having ABS but you still need decent tyres to make it stop! I've tried this on several people to be rewarded with a face like a dog being shown a card trick and a reply worthy of Spinal Tap (amp goes up to 11) 'Yeah, but my cars got ABS.....'

 

You only have to look as far as your locality, check out what teenagers are driving (no, I'm not having a dig at the kids), it's really rare to see anyone under 25 driving the today's equivilent to what we did at those ages, it's all nice shiney newish stuff. When I see a youngster in an old car, I think 'Well done, good luck to you', even if they'd rather be in some super-sexy & whizzy new thing, as said above, you'll learn far more about driving in an old shiter than in some electronic aid filled new car.

 

Also, as they don't fix them anymore either, they know little/nothing about how they work. I used to work with a bunch of 20-30y/o's (mainly guys) and none of them knew anything about the cars they drove or cars in general yet they'd bitch and moan about garage bills - often for the simplist things like a blown bulb.

I used to say fix it yourself, their stock reply was that they didn't know how (followed by 'Can you do it for me?'), I did help them out for which they were very grateful but they did seem to think I was born with this talent - no, I had to learn, it's not rocket science but they'd rather pay someone else I guess whereas we (royal We for us on here) at that age didn't have that option due to the money not being there so it was DIY or walk.

[purplebargeken]

I'm gonna play with everyone's mind when I put the Beemer on the road. I will indicate, not tailgate, keep a reasonable distance, not make wanker gestures to everyone and stick'ish to the limits. Haha that'll boil the noodles of most modern drivers.

[tooSavvy]

Put a new driver, passed in a CorsaD, in any petrol car...... count the FTP at junctions

 

TS

[Taff]

I'm gonna play with everyone's mind when I put the Beemer on the road. I will indicate, not tailgate, keep a reasonable distance, not make wanker gestures to everyone and stick'ish to the limits. Haha that'll boil the noodles of most modern drivers.

 

And the Gods of BMW will hunt you down without mercy...

 

 

My earlier post about the Moggy Minor was in jest but the point is valid. I've had a broad range of bangers, classics and company cars since I passed my test in 1987, and the Army put me through C+E unrestricted, Hazmat, motorbike and armoured vehicle as well. So, I still do my lifesavers (thank you motorbikes), am happy using just my door mirrors (thank you C+E) and know enough about physics to realise why a stopping distance is a fact and not a concept to be treated with lip service (thank you armoured vehicles).

 

I'm far from a perfect driver (I did 45000 miles in a company BMW this year and I know exactly what you mean when you say "cocooned" by safety devices and blue-tooth), but I certainly think that driving the old stuff, along with driving some big lumbering stuff, gives you a better appreciation for the rest of the road users, something lacking in most. 

 

side note, once drove a Warrior AFV down the M5 from Chester to Bristol with the turbo singing all the way and my commander in the turret traversing about a little for comic effect. No fecker cut me up that day, I can tell you

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

I agree with Vulgalour that modern cars are difficult to drive well, with very poor visibility and a feeling of being cocooned away from the action.

 

My Jag is the best mix of old and modern that I have driven. It has much of the capability of a modern car - good brakes, decent performance, excellent road holding (especially on broken surfaces where its better than the modern BMW which skits wide on its no-travel suspension) and reasonable safety.  It also has excellent visibility, particularly to the rear which is miles better than anything else I have driven that hasn't been ancient. They're affordable too - prices are firmly in the Shite camp!

 

I always leave a decent gap which people constantly squeeze into. Nothing you can do about it - closing the gap would mean I don't have one! Recently, I suffered the ignominy of not one but two Audis forcing their way into it...

[garethj]

I'm gonna play with everyone's mind when I put the Beemer on the road. I will indicate, not tailgate, keep a reasonable distance, not make wanker gestures to everyone and stick'ish to the limits. Haha that'll boil the noodles of most modern drivers.

 

I sometimes see BMWs driven like that.  I just thought they were stolen

[doobietoo]

I'm gonna play with everyone's mind when I put the Beemer on the road. I will indicate, not tailgate, keep a reasonable distance, not make wanker gestures to everyone and stick'ish to the limits. Haha that'll boil the noodles of most modern drivers.

 

It really does though..... and if you look ahead and know the road to a degree you can really play with them, Driving back to the rolling hills of Darzet from the smoke on Sunday i managed to really upset a couple of drivers who couldn't understand how a 1 litre Yaris driven by an old bloke could keep popping up in front of them on the journey home. One got so incandescent with rage his driving became down right dangerous even though he had 2 young children in the car. I pulled over and let him go before he did something even more stupid than driving 2 inches from my bumper and trying to overtake with traffic coming the other way.... 

[drum]

Riding motorbikes is excellent training for safe car driving.

Improves skills like looking out for the bad driving of others, judging the road ahead particularly the sharpness of corners, the road surface etc.

 

You're in a higher state of alert when on a bike making progress. One of the best tips I got was to look at the vanishing point of a corner to get an idea of how tight it is. Useful if you're in a hurry on unfamiliar B roads.

 

You expect other drivers not to see you and are prepared to take avoiding action. I always look at the faces of drivers waiting to come out of a junction to see if they look at me.

 

The wife loves* it when I'm in the passenger seat as she gets all this advice free.

 

I is a Driving God like.

[Tre3]

Also riding a normal bike.

[CreepingJesus]

About ten years ago, my agency ran an 'experience day' in a big, empty tarmac yard. The idea was to give car drivers an idea of what the problems faced by bikers and truck/bus drivers are.

Once some cones had been destroyed, blind spots illustrated and more, people went away with a much better idea that they couldn't do just what they liked. They'd have to consider other road users. And that can only be a good thing.

When we consider the costs of accidents (financial and personal), it looks like a permanent scheme like this, would be cheap at the price.

 

After the other week, when a clown in an Avensis cut me up into roadworks, brake tested me, and left no space for a Bini to repeat the feat (and the Bini ending up doing a spot of cone-munching); such a scheme couldn't come quickly enough.

I ain't holding my breath though.

[brownnova]

I've always said that driving old cars makes you a better driver in the long run - even in modern cars.  Although with reference to the original post I've never known a motorway as bad as the M25 for people cutting in on braking gaps!