What is too slow then?

[jonny69]

Been thinking about this for a while, mainly spurred on by a colleague moaning about his 1.2 being too slow. You often also hear about people complaining that they think their car is so slow they think it's dangerous. LOLWUT?

 

I think the 1500 in my car developed 60hp when it was new and it will be down a bit on that now. Car weighs around 800kg. Now, I'm not going to win any races, but it feels peppy enough and it'll sit at 80 in 4th if I want it to and clip about 95 flat-out. I have driven slow before - a 30hp Ford Pop is slow and you're rendered to not overtake at all and you have to pick your timing when you pull out.

 

So what's the problem? Almost ALL new cars are faster than mine both in acceleration and top speed. Are people just that bothered about winning traffic light grands prix or am I just happy to accept it because I'm driving chod?

[NorfolkNWeigh]

It's all about expectations, Series Land Rovers always seem quicker than I expect them to be for example whereas when I first drove a 750iL BMW it seemed too slow.

When I was young and cocky, I once refused to drive a 2.5 Senator auto, because it was dangerous. I contended that in an emergency it wouldn't be able to accelerate out of a dangerous situation. Of course,now I realise that it was me that was dangerous for potentially ending up in that situation, didn't matter I was given a renault 25 V6 to use instead- much quicker.

[dave21478]

Its like all modern motoring - basically a big cock-waving contest. Nobody wants to admit that they are content with their 70bhp runnabout as that would be seen as un-manly. Apparently, only gaylords drive anything less than 150bhp.

 

Its only weirdos like us that are happy to tool along at 50mph and enjoy the journey rather than fixate on getting to the destination as soon as possible.

[DodgyBastard]

The 1.3 Allegro was too slow, being laughed at and overtaken by cincequento owners isn't fun. The proton with it's 1.3 engine putting out a whopping 77bhp is actually quite quick and nice to drive.

[Mr Lobster]

I was thinking this earlier as it happens.

 

There was a thing on Watchdog about a new Fiat 500 being 'dangerously slow' and 'unable to get up hills' or some such guff. Surely this tells you more about the drivers (in)abilities to drive and use the gears properly than any 'danger' on the part of the car - its still going to be faster than my Renault 4 and that manages hills just fine.

 

But, I do like a fast car. Not so much for the going flat out OMG TOP SPEED but more for the overtaking ability to get round the dawdlers who have invariably switched their brains off once they started driving and as I was wondering what I fancy next whenever that is, do I really want something less powerful than the 180bhp I'm currently playing with?

[Danblez]

Have you driven a modern small car recently? My most recent experience was a hire car fiat 500 which must have had a flywheel the size of the moon. It took seconds to redline even when in neutral. What a slow, gutless piece of crap and what an absolutely terrible driving experience. That peppiness of which you talk certainly isn't a factor of any modern cars I have driven recently. Small fiats used to be good at peppy too!

 

Even though I would imagine on paper it is quicker than your car it certainly wont feel like it!

[derskine]

I think as long as you can pull out of junctions without getting side swiped it's not too slow.

The Cortina and 18 are pretty slow but they're okay.

[Junkman]

My threeputterer Daishitsu Daimatic is still too fast, because the good people nowadays just don't drive the fuck on.

I suspect they think at the speed they drive, due to overexposure to television, which slows down the thinking rate

to this typical 50 per minute cycle, which is effectively zombiedom.

There is no point in having a car, that can go faster, than the one in front of it is driven.

It drives me insane and I might give up driving altogether in the near future.

[jonny69]

  On 05/12/2014 at 11:34, Danblez said:

Have you driven a modern small car recently? My most recent experience was a hire car fiat 500 which must have had a flywheel the size of the moon. It took seconds to redline even when in neutral. What a slow, gutless piece of crap and what an absolutely terrible driving experience. That peppiness of which you talk certainly isn't a factor of any modern cars I have driven recently. Small fiats used to be good at peppy too!

Well, this is actually what inspired the thread. My colleague was moaning about his 1.2 Fiat 500 which is a couple of years old now, so it's not one of these new ones that seem to have a strange engine tune, but I drove one recently looking to buy one (admittedly a TwinAir) and I was quite surprised how fast it was. Certainly a LOT faster than my Anglia is and I couldn't see what the problem was. So we're back to my original question: slow compared to what?

 

FYI I worked out it was actually the tiny 2-cylinder engine I liked, so I bought an old Citroen.

[jonny69]

  On 05/12/2014 at 11:24, FOAD said:

The 1.3 Allegro was too slow, being laughed at and overtaken by cincequento owners isn't fun.

Dude, they're laughing at you because you're in an Allegro, not because it is slow.

[dollywobbler]

It's a very interesting question. I could never comprehend driving around in an old 425cc Citroen 2CV, because they are hopelessly slow. But I imagine that most people jumping into my 602cc 2CV would think it hopelessly slow. After all, if I've not driven it for a while, I do find myself wondering why it is slowing down. Until I notice that we're on a hill. Like when cycling, in a 2CV, you notice gradients that you never knew were there!

 

I can drive the 2CV very quickly, but it'll always be slow going up steep hills. Sometimes, I find that a problem - overtaking trucks on motorways needs a very healthy check of the road ahead for instance - but it really isn't a massive issue. 

 

I can't see how a 1.3 Allegro could be slow. They're got loads of torque! My 1.3 Metro used to absolutely fly. Even our 1-litre Mini could keep a good pace up on hills, because of the low-down grunt that a 2CV entirely lacks.

[320touring]

Slow is an interesting idea..

 

At the same speed everything is equally fast.

 

Rate of acceleration is the thing here-keeping constant speed is relatively low in power requirements.

 

If you think of trucks, a 500 bhp truck has only got 11.4bhp/tonne if loaded to 44t.

 

Therefore an original fiat 500 is better off..

 

Gearing plays as much a part as anything else, as does the torque characteristic of the engine.

 

I'd happily drive anything that is road registered as long as i had the licence and it was insured.

 

Very few things are slower than walking-conservation of momentum is key;)

 

TL:DR- everything is fast enough

[Bren]

  On 05/12/2014 at 11:19, NorfolkNWeigh said:

It's all about expectations, Series Land Rovers always seem quicker than I expect them to be for example whereas when I first drove a 750iL BMW it seemed too slow.

When I was young and cocky, I once refused to drive a 2.5 Senator auto, because it was dangerous. I contended that in an emergency it wouldn't be able to accelerate out of a dangerous situation. Of course,now I realise that it was me that was dangerous for potentially ending up in that situation, didn't matter I was given a renault 25 V6 to use instead- much quicker.

I had a senator 2.5 auto - I will endorse what you have said. Good cruiser but a mobility scooter would have had it from a standing start. I am led to believe that uk cars had a different final drive that was for cruising / economy.

[Micrashed]

  On 05/12/2014 at 11:26, Mr Lobster said:

 

There was a thing on Watchdog about a new Fiat 500 being 'dangerously slow' and 'unable to get up hills' or some such guff. Surely this tells you more about the drivers (in)abilities to drive and use the gears properly than any 'danger' on the part of the car - its still going to be faster than my Renault 4 and that manages hills just fine.

 

Yup, Micrashed does too, manages perfectly well with its 53 52 51 50 49 ponies of power  - one hill in Clayton Le Woods needs careful negotiation between speed cameras, if Im lucky and the road is clear I can gun it halfway alongt the first speed camera lines and just make the hill in 5th gear as I have enough momentum. If Im not and there is someone in front of me then its a third gear job.

 

It all part and parcel the fun.

[scruff]

^^I think a lot of it is just that, people don't know how to drive any more, if they have to drop down a cog for a hill the car is OMG SH1T

 

My wife's got a 1.2 Panda and it's wicked. Slower with 3 or 4 people in it but still faster up to speed than my Range Rover.

[Louise2cv]

  On 05/12/2014 at 11:24, FOAD said:

The 1.3 Allegro was too slow, being laughed at and overtaken by cincequento owners isn't fun. The proton with it's 1.3 engine putting out a whopping 77bhp is actually quite quick and nice to drive.

 

 My 1300 Allegro was too fast! I used to cack myself when driving that old thing, it is still the fastest (feeling) thing I have ever been in.

 

I had it after only ever owning 2cvs or using vans or very modern cars (golf and audi both 2litre but big and heavy and solid), the Allegro was twice the cc's of the 2cv but almost as light and tinny and flimsy, which gave it a very rollercoastery thrill feel when driving it.

 

 

 

Its all relative.

[mercrocker]

ALL my vehicles are gutless.....Knackered T25 with 1.9DG, 190E with 1.8 and the BMC chod.   Funny enough I do not seem to get left behind at the lights very much.   If you take an interest in driving you are constantly looking for lane positioning, what the other set of lights is doing, precisely what gear you need to be in etc etc.  Junkman is right, most people drive around with mouth open and eyes shut - if they are not gawping at a satnav or phone that is.   The only time I feel any lack of power is when I am towing the caravan and even then its only the gear ratios that highlight the problem - particularly the shit gap between 2nd and 3rd on the T25.   Ever since I scared myself absolutely gibbering shitless on an H1 Kawie most cars have felt a bit underwhelming in the acceleration stakes.   The most useful grunt I enjoyed was from 2.8i Mk2 Grannies and they probably weren't that powerful - just bloody good fun to drive.   I hate bloody new stuff so I neither know nor care how fast or slow they are.

[HH-R]

I drive a 1.2 Panda 30-60 miles a day depending on where I go and it's fine.

 

I go straight into the outside lane at traffic light controlled roundabouts going onto dual carriageways, everyone else goes in the left lane and by the time they have realised the lights have changed, put it into gear, checked their phone/makeup, and taken the handbrake off I'm off way in front. It can match most thing up to about 50, after that it's a bit painful though. Change up at 3/4k RPM and it gets up to speed nicely. It doesn't really rev above 4000 RPM though, not unless you have a calendar! Even getting to there it seems reluctant.

 

Only time lack of power is a pain is when people decide to be awkward and speed match you on slip roads (had that coming off and going onto dual carriageways), the accelerator pedal is just a noise generator above about 50.

 

The later Fiats are supposed to be pretty dreadful with the Euro 5 engine map, juddering and lacking in power. I drove a 2010 1.1 mk3 Panda which on paper only has 4 less BHP than my car, but blimey, it was SLOW. The accelerator was an on/off switch, stopped or glacial.

 

Don't understand the rep K11 Micras got about being slow, again I drove mine all over and it was perfectly fine.

[DaveAspley]

1980 Datsun Cherry 1.0

 

Almost dangerous.

[oman5]

  On 05/12/2014 at 11:24, FOAD said:

The 1.3 Allegro was too slow, being laughed at and overtaken by cincequento owners isn't fun. The proton with it's 1.3 engine putting out a whopping 77bhp is actually quite quick and nice to drive.

I've got an allegro 1300 its actually much better than I expected. Mines a series 3 with an A+, up to about 30 it's quite peppy.

I used to have a Sierra 2.3 diesel, now that really was slow. It didn't so much accelerate as gradually gather momentum..continental shift is faster. That feeling of utter despair when pulling out to overtake someone going uphill, foot flat to the floor and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENS soon makes you stop even trying.

I seem to remember w123 Mercedes 240d were even worse.

[derskine]

I think FOAD's Allegro required a service.

It was properly shit though.

[cort16]

A lot of modern cars are quite slow. Some of the base models still use the previous generation engine in the new generation car, which is normally about 25% heavier

I'm thinking specifically of Mrs's old grande punto that weighed 1.1 ton but had a 60bhp 1.2 motor. Grim.

 

The slowest thing I've ever driven was a 1.3 Automatic mk2  Escort. I got offered it cheap when my cortina failed it's MOT but after as 10 minute test drive I was ready to drive it off a bridge.

[John F]

Honda CB250N Superdreams.

[Asimo]

Old fashioned slow cars always feel like they are trying their best for you, even if their best is pathetic.

 

Modern slow cars like those Fiats feel like they are sulking and refusing to accelerate.

[forddeliveryboy]

It's a very good question. If you're much slower than HGVs on an A road then it's likely you'd start to be an obstruction. I tried a 435cc 2cv for a month or so one summer. A regular journey was on an up and down A road between two towns, about 20 miles including a couple of dual carriageway. It's a busy road with plenty of holiday traffic, including caravans, in season and you're often in a 45-50mph procession.

 

Although the car would accelerate from rest to 45mph as fast as the 'big engine' versions and cruise at a genuine 60+ in still conditions on the level, you'd sometimes find yourself at the head of a queue starting to irritate other drivers which I didn't enjoy, so popped a 602 under the bonnet and enjoyed neck-snapping (well, almost) performance with short gears. It was annoying not being able to zoom along at 85 in the right conditions though - I think official max revs were at about 70 or so. At least it was usually catching most traffic up rather than being caught.

[vulgalour]

All of my cars are 'dangerously slow'.  Doesn't stop me overtaking people in the outside lane of the motorway, setting off from road ends without being run into or frustratingly grumbling about the person in front in their OMGHORSEPOWER car for holding me up.

 

Dangerously fast is something that does exist, that's the point at which the car's speed exceeds your skills as a driver and is far more common.

 

What's also dangerous is when someone ASSUMES your car is slow and acts accordingly.  I reckon people think Maestros are only capable of travelling at 15mph at all times given the number of times people pulled out in front of me at junctions even after judging the gap.  The Princess gets tailgated at the speed limit too, even if that's a national speed limit and I'm keeping pace with the traffic in front.  In fact, the only car I haven't had people behave like the car is going slower than it really is has to be the Xantia, which looks fairly modern.

 

Conclusion:  people are morons.

[DVee8]

I am surprised a new car can actually move due to the weight of all the safety kit on them

According to wiki 1st Fiat 500  499kg new 500 865-980 kg fat boy.

 

Even a Ford Focus 1999 model 1150-1364kg new focus1270-1471kg.

and so on

[andy18s]

ANY of the agency drivers around Market Drayton employed by Muller.they have a blanket 35mph placed on them by the company......great with the twisty roads here

[bub2006]

Our Mercedes e200 was bloody horrendous. Check both ways,input steering angle and floor it. Hope it makes I across the road before you get taken out by something. Awful on hills. Slight inclines needed kickdown. I finally realised how bad it was nearly a year after getting rid of it when I borrowed my dads Kia sedona diesel the other day and that was a lot quicker off the mark and getting up to speed and that was an auto too.

[barefoot]

My T2 is slow.

It's plated at 2300kg.

It came with 60 eager German horses in the noisy cupboard, but I suspect a lot of them have been turned into glue by now. It will cruise at 55mph. At 60 it feels thrashed. You have to be always on the lookout for a gradient or it will spot the hill before you and then you're really in trouble. Foot on the floor, slowing, slowing, slowing...

There's nothing you can do, you can't change down until you get to 35.

It can be a little trying.

 

My Scirocco is an oddment.

75 eager German horses, but 125 torks.

It's not a revver, but is quite sprightly up until it suddenly isn't any more.

95 max, I'm buggered if I can get it to touch a hundred, but at just 850kg, it will whip through the twisty bits with aplomb.

 

And the 944 is still relatively brisk.