Cars you didn't know existed until very recently.

[martc]

Looks like someone at Tatra had a peek at the VW EA128 before coming up with the 613.

 

[Timewaster]

I wonder what the roads would look like now if VW had produced the mid engine effort or one of those other turds instead of the Golf?

 

Not full of silver VAG dullness I'm sure.

[Yoss]

34 minutes ago, martc said:

Looks like someone at Tatra had a peek at the VW EA128 before coming up with the 613.

 

Seems only fair seeing as the Beetle was a rip off of the Tatra T97. What goes around...etc

[lesapandre]

The VW 4-door is remarkably similar to the Rootes rear engined 'Swallow' project that was developed up to 1963 and then axed following the disappointment of Imp sales and Rootes ongoing cashflow problems. They plumped for the more conventional Arrow range.

 

[lesapandre]

The 1969 Brazilian VW 1600 also takes some of the styling cues. 

[lesapandre]

The Golf prototype ideas resurfaced a bit in the 1980 VW Gol which featured the air-cool  Brazilian flat 4 in a fwd hatchback!

[lesapandre]

Our transatlantic friends at Curbsideclassic have the low-down if you want more info:

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-american/curbside-classic-1971-vw-1600-tl-turns-out-the-brazilian-type-3-isnt-really-a-type-3-its-the-ea97-reincarnated/

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-volkswagen-gol-the-difficult-mission-to-replace-a-legend/

Not sure how many of these ever escaped to Europe.

[lesapandre]

And for all-out rear-engined wacky-ness try the rear engined Studebaker Lark try-out.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motor1.com/news/78288/the-rear-engined-studebaker-with-the-heart-of-a-porsche/amp/

 

[lesapandre]

3 hours ago, Timewaster said:

I wonder what the roads would look like now if VW has produced the mid engine effort or one of those other turds instead of the Golf?

 

Not full of silver VAG dullness I'm sure.

The 411/412 produced from 1968 pointed in a different design direction for VW - but was in fact the end of a long design road. Even this car sold in big numbers (relatively) - 367,000 in 6 years. This is the notchback that never made production. And after that all fwd in Europe I think.

I had a Type 3 Variant and after that a 412 estate when they were just bangers. The latter always felt a bit of an unwieldy barge and not great mpg I recall - though I liked the Type 3 a lot - bit more compact and actually much nicer to drive. Was a 1600 and would cruise very nicely at 80mph all day long.

[lesapandre]

A bit of Zephyr 'barge-ness' in that VW too?

[JeeExEll]

Can you imagine the reaction if the Zeff/Zodiac Mk4 had been introduced with an Essex V6 (or a flat 6) in the boot? A compact 2-litre V4 for the Zephyrs.

'Bonkers? Not arrf mate'.

Loads of luggage space in the front though.

[lesapandre]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:16 AM, JeeExEll said:

Prototype VW Golf.

 

And another one.

How different it might have been for VW profits if they had proceeded with one of these ungainly Golfs.  They remind me of BMC/BLMC efforts - where they seemed just to go ahead and sell cars that would have benefited from more careful styling to drive sales. The top two pictures are not bad - a bit of a Fiat/Renault feel about them - but not a patch on the finished Golf IMHO. But even by 1967 they did realise the 2-box hatchback was the way to go - something completely missed with the later Allegro for example.

Is the top car still rear-engined? Note the odd position of the fuel filler for example.

[adw1977]

29 minutes ago, JeeExEll said:

Can you imagine the reaction if the Zeff/Zodiac Mk4 had been introduced with an Essex V6 (or a flat 6) in the boot? A compact 2-litre V4 for the Zephyrs.

'Bonkers? Not arrf mate'.

Loads of luggage space in the front though.

The V4 and V6 engines used in the Mark 4 probably would fit in the boot! 

This picture of an early Mk4 design (from Michael Allen's excellent book on the subject) shows what happened when the bonnet matched the size of the engine :

Which is why the Mark 4 ended up with the spare wheel under the bonnet! 

[chaseracer]

Anyone else seeing a lot of 'Hillman Super Minx' in there?

[lesapandre]

American designer Raymond Loewy's studio was involved with both companies for a time. There are a lot of styling similarities - he styled the Rootes Arrow range - which were a bit like shrunken Studebakers of the era etc.

[quicksilver]

14 hours ago, lesapandre said:

The 411/412 produced from 1968 pointed in a different design direction for VW - but was in fact the end of a long design road. Even this car sold in big numbers (relatively) - 367,000 in 6 years. This is the notchback that never made production. And after that all fwd in Europe I think.

I had a Type 3 Variant and after that a 412 estate when they were just bangers. The latter always felt a bit of an unwieldy barge and not great mpg I recall - though I liked the Type 3 a lot - bit more compact and actually much nicer to drive. Was a 1600 and would cruise very nicely at 80mph all day long.

It's interesting to consider what might have happened to VW had the NSU Ro80 been more reliable. The K70 was the car that changed VW's design philosophy and got them away from rear engines, but was an NSU design and only became a VW when they took over NSU who had bankrupted themselves fixing broken Ro80s. Better Ro80 = no front-engined Dubs?

[lesapandre]

I had a K70 in 1987 -  one of 800 rhd. Again a car, like the 411/412,  which has all but disappeared from view in the UK. Very smooth revvy engine I recall. All NSU developed. About 210,000 produced. Drove alright but a bit bland - not particularly comfortable inside either. Not a car I miss. Very quickly disowned by VW specialists. I bet parts are hell these days?

[lesapandre]

And this is another VW Brazilian mash-up. A Puma - Karman Ghia underpinnings I believe with a new fibreglass body. Not a VW product.

[Sealtainn]

I know this is a modern so apologies but I saw this in Aberdeen on Friday and had no idea Vauxhall did a big convertible. A Cascada apparently


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JeeExEll]

21 hours ago, lesapandre said:

Is the top car still rear-engined? Note the odd position of the fuel filler for example.

I think you may be right, although the pics are labelled 'Golf prototype' on the net. The codename for the 1967 cars is EA 235. I could visualise one with an in line engine driving the front wheels, like the Audis and VW K70 of that general period.

Some brief info here but more info available. https://avengers-in-time.blogspot.com/2017/08/1974-cars-volkswagen-golf-mk-i-typ-17.html

Edited June 5, 2019 by JeeExEll

[JeeExEll]

8 hours ago, adw1977 said:

The V4 and V6 engines used in the Mark 4 probably would fit in the boot! 

This picture of an early Mk4 design (from Michael Allen's excellent book on the subject) shows what happened when the bonnet matched the size of the engine :

Which is why the Mark 4 ended up with the spare wheel under the bonnet! 

Great pic, I didn't know that book existed. Have not seen this pic before. Have been googling for design prototype Zephyrs and Zodiacs for years, without any luck.

[chaseracer]

2 hours ago, Sealtainn said:

...had no idea Vauxhall did a big convertible. A Cascada apparently

Basically a drop-top Insignia.

[Sir Snipes]

7 hours ago, lesapandre said:

And this is another VW Brazilian mash-up. A Puma - Karman Ghia underpinnings I believe with a new fibreglass body. Not a VW product.

I like that. Looks like a 60s pastiche, almost like a 250GTO kit, except for the rear lights. They look out of place to me. 

[adw1977]

2 hours ago, JeeExEll said:

Great pic, I didn't know that book existed. Have not seen this pic before. Have been googling for design prototype Zephyrs and Zodiacs for years, without any luck.

It is a great book, loads of info on all four generations of Zephyr. 

This is it, if you want to find a copy:

[Bfg]

.

classic 1960's Morgan

 

. . .

 

. .

 

.

[GBJ]

On 5/30/2019 at 10:01 PM, sheffcortinacentre said:

Ferguson's converted a 69/70 Mustang (still exists), 70/71 hemi cuda, at least 3 MK1 3.0 capris ( ford still own one), 1 MK3 3.0 Capri, triumph stag,a 3.0 scimitar, 2 pos 3 vauxhall royale/ Opel senator s( ibelieve one was an estate too) at least one survives, unfortunately the MK3 Cortina est (3.0 V6) didn't get past design stage .

The zephyrs were 3.0 V6 normally reserved for zodiacs,rumour has it that ford had two zodiac estates converted one used as a tow/chase car by boreham competition dept.

The introduction of the range rover killed of the lucrative police market as it fullfilled all there needs at a cheaper price.

Don't forget the Jensen FF. First production car with ABS.

[Datsuncog]

More Volkswagen wackiness, kids;

A new one on me: the 1972 Brubaker Box.

A glassfibre one-box body that bolted directly on to an unmodified Beetle floorpan and mechanicals, this proto-minivan was designed and built by Curtis Brubaker, a Los Angeles industrial designer and dubnut who saw the potential of marrying the twin early-70s crazes of beach buggies and surf vans. Apparently, these were almost semi-official vehicles, not a kit car, to be marketed and sold fully built-up using new VW components and with VW dealer support.

Prototypes featured in the US motoring press and reviews were highly favourable. Car and Driver put the Box on its cover for March 1972, and Motor Trend were also impressed by the high standards of fit and finish for a projected price of $3,995, including the 'lounge' rear seating (the 'stool' actually concealed the centrally-mounted fuel tank). Their approval was justified: Brubaker wasn't some backyard bodger with a big barrel o' wob, but a former design consultant for General Motors and Toyota who had also worked with Bill Lear developing the LearJet.

The huge shock-absorbing bumpers were made of glassfibre and steel, finished with simulated woodgrain. Other parts-bin components included a front windscreen sourced from the AMC Javelin, a rear window from the Ford Pinto wagon, and rear lights taken from the Datsun 1300 pickup. Ingress and egress were via a single sliding door - and it's fair to say it all adds up to more than the sum of its (multiple) parts.

But despite the positive press, Wolfsburg developed cold feet and at a late stage pulled out of the project to supply the necessary CKD platforms and dealer access - citing liability concerns.

With a 17,000 square foot factory already rented and a plan to build five Boxes a month, in desperation Brubaker bought some brand new Beetles and fitted his own bodies to their floorpans, while selling off the surplus VW panels to subsidise costs.

Although a brave attempt, the time and effort involved proved unsustainable and Brubaker's company folded before the end of 1972 - after completing and selling only 3 vehicles with his name on them. 

After being passed through several sets of hands (some of whom knocked out a few kits, some of whom didn't), the glassfibre bucks eventually ended up with one of Brubaker's former investors, Mike Hansen.

Hansen owned a Californian company called Automecca, and in 1974 he made a serious effort to market the former Box as a self-assembly kit under the Roamer SportsVan brand. He also offered fully built-up versions based on donor vehicles.

These were not terribly cheap - $3,950 for the basic kit, $4,875 for the deluxe kit, and $5,265 for Automecca to take your old Beetle and return it to you as a SportsVan.

To put it in context, at the time a 1974 Chevrolet Corvette would have set you back about $6,000, while a basic 6-cyl Camaro could be yours, brand new, for $2,800. So you'd have to really want one of these.

Hansen also competed in local baja races using one, possibly in an effort to drum up some trade:  

Which recently resurfaced...

The SportsVan sold only a few dozen examples before Mike Hansen called it a day, and the tooling was sold on again.

Other efforts were made right into the 1990s to produce kits, and apparently the original bucks still survive, though in poor condition.

As with most heroic failures featuring VW ancestry, surviving Brubaker Boxes are rare old things. With only around 50 or so versions ever made, if you happen to find one of these in your yard, you can pretty much name your price...

And, perhaps typically, there are recent plans afoot to crowdsource brand-new Box kits, based on moulds taken from an unbuilt kit recently discovered. Apparently the plan is to allow them to not only fit original Beetle floorpans, but also the new VW EV platform.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/03/brubaker-box-reproduction-kit/#slide-7553688

You might also wonder if a Matra executive happened to draw some inspiration from the Box when dreaming up their P16 prototype, which ultimately became the Renault Espace...

 

[DoctorRetro]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:04 PM, chaseracer said:

Basically a drop-top Insignia.

 

Cascada?

"Every time I drive it , I get the feeling 

The roof is going to leak and the engine is shite

Can you hear my Ecotec* thump, i hope it's not fatal

I should have bought a golf."

 

*Artistic license - no idea what engine it is.

[quicksilver]

1 hour ago, TheDoctor said:

 

Cascada?

"Every time I drive it , I get the feeling 

The roof is going to leak and the engine is shite

Can you hear my Ecotec* thump, i hope it's not fatal

I should have bought a golf."

 

*Artistic license - no idea what engine it is.

Funnily enough there was a Cascada lurking in the corner of the car park at Vauxhall Heritage yesterday, the first one I've knowingly seen up close. This one was brown and had a diesel engine so it looked stunning*. Amazing that GM seriously thought of that Insignia in a party frock as a Merc and Audi rival and I'm not surprised it was the first thing PSA pulled the plug on.

[spartacus]

There's a thread on 'Boxes' on the blue forum, I'm not sure how much extra info is there though, you seem to have it nailed Datsuncog.