Le bus oignon - Xantia of many Autoshiters - GYPSY CURSE

[Noel Tidybeard]

if mike sits on the biting point all the time you wanna hit him with the old plate when you take it out the first time he does it on the new clutch

[twosmoke300]

Uggh , I wouldnt fancy doing a xantia diesel clutch on the floor . Good luck and hope everything comes undone ok for you.

[DS20]

I'm basically Kim Woodburn in a two piece suit and more costume jewellery.

 

 

 

That's a rare old picture conjured up right there 

[vulgalour]

The Xantia hasn't been used for a few days while I've been waiting for garage space to get the clutch done.  So for the past few days it's been sat outside the house getting rained on a lot.  This isn't normally a problem but when I checked under the rear seat again to see how well the previous dampness - presumed to be from the washing machine we transported - had dried out I was met with the sight of a small 1" or so deep puddle.

 

 

This is actually quite strange.  The car had a damp issue when I got it which I cured with new outer light clusters, cleaning the inner light clusters and resealing the tailgate moisture membrane, this also means the boot has been bone dry ever since.  I'm getting no water in the front or rear footwells, no dampness in the carpets or headlining, no visible water ingress and no water staining.  It's like the water is collecting under the rear seat purely of its own will.

 

I have washed the car several times, it's been left in the rain before, driven through the rain, had a power wash blasted all over it and it's never let this much water in before.  I have no sunroof either, so it's not related to that.  My best theory so far is that the minor spidering under the paint on the roof has lifted the edge of the rubber seal for the gutter trims and that's allowing just enough water to trickle in over a few days and pool under the seat by running along various trim items unseen.

 

Anyone got any ideas on how this is happening?

[Noel Tidybeard]

they all do that sir

[rml2345]

Couldn't be that one of the rear side windows has come slightly unstuck from the car and is letting a dribble in could it? Water getting in can take some pretty elaborate routes to reach where you find it.

[dollywobbler]

Bloody cars. I get utterly fed up with cars that leak - and a surprising number of the ones I've owned have. I'd be checking the rear door seals in your case I think. 

[skattrd]

I'm about to tackle a a leak on the boring this weekend. I couldn't figure out where it was coming from as the dampness appears to start in the middle of the back seat. It turns out there are vents behind the bumper to let air circulate in the back of the car, and these have seals which deteriorate.

Maybe there's similar ventilation on the Xantia?

[vulgalour]

MoT on the Xantia is due on the 25th. Today we finally got the time to get started on the clutch change, but not until half the day was gone so we only got as far as removing the wheels, checking the front brakes (which are in fine fettle), removing the under tray and draining the gearbox oil. The oil out of the gearbox was very much in need of doing, while it's still pleasantly opaque and oil coloured, it smells bad and seems thicker than it ought to be. It's likely the oil hasn't been changed for the 100,000 miles the car has done, likewise the clutch, so I'm not at all surprised or disappointed by what came out.

What was nice to see is how solid the car is underneath, it's definitely the nicest I've had to date and worth spending the effort on. There is a weep from the sump gasket which we'll sort when we do an oil change and I suspect the weep at the top of the engine is from the usual suspect of the rocker cover gasket. Haven't yet checked the arm bushes at the front, but that is to be looked at as they may need doing ahead of the MoT. Plenty of things to remove before getting the old clutch out and plenty of things to check for wear and tear. So far so good though, it all looks pretty good.

Here's a potato-cam shot of things at the end of play today.





Hoping to provide a positive update on this job tomorrow. Wish me luck beating this appalling man-flu or whatever it is that's reducing my working day to three hours. The water ingress problem will be investigated once the clutch is done, going to be pulling the rear seats and trims out to investigate.

[purplebargeken]

Good luck mate, seems as if you have somewhere semi-sensible to do it at least. 

[ruffgeezer]

Just do the arm bushes, it'll transform it. They aren't a long or expensive job. just do one side at a time though.

[Micrashed]

Have a look at your rear window seals, one on the Micra has gone due to rust under the window rubber and leaks in when it rains. Ive tried Captain Tolly and silicone but it still gets in. So now Im just living with it.

 

The C8 also leaks in, which p***es me off more than anyone will ever know.

[vulgalour]

It continues.  I can understand why so much is charged for a Xantia clutch replacement now and I begin to wonder if it's not enough.  A lot of time feels wasted by the amount of car you have to remove to get to the gearbox including a good bit of the suspension.  I think Citroen fitted the car to the gearbox, not the other way around, it seems to be at the very core of the engine bay.

 

Because I've been ill and there's customer's cars taking priority, work on the Xantia is not a full-time affair.  Less than ideal, but that's how it is.  After 3.5 hours the car is ready to have the gearbox dropped after which the clutch change and rebuild can happen.  I strongly suspect refitting will be much quicker than removal.

 

With the LHM reservoir, pump thingy, battery, battery tray, front accumulator, air box, driveshafts and myriad smaller items removed you can just about get at the gearbox.  The vast majority of the time involved is figuring out how and where things are fastened down and what order to best remove them, the HBoL isn't as useful as one might expect in this regard.

 

 

You reach a point where you have to call it a day with this sort of thing, so we brought the plastic stuff home and got on with degreasing it and cleaning out the LHM stuff.  Even though the LHM was done less than a year ago the bottom of the reservoir had a lot of very black deposits and the filters were equally mucked up which I expect contributes massively to the niggles I've had with the suspension and brakes.

 

There's still more degreasing to do on the air box, which is quite crusty down one side, but everything has cleaned up very well and is now drying out so we don't get any water contamination in the LHM on reassembly.  It's likely I'll clean out the LHM a couple of times in quicker succession than is usual to get it all back into excellent condition again.

 

Finally, we discovered the positive terminal cover hiding underneath the reservoir, not sure how it got there and didn't know it was missing but it's nice to have it and be able to refit that when the job is done.

[ruffgeezer]

good work mate, let me know if you need any advice.

[vulgalour]

We will call you for definite if we get stuck, luckily there are good contacts for help sorting this one out.  We're extra-fortunate to have this place around the corner: 

 

 

They have made favourable noises about the Xantia and offered assistance with the front ride height if we can't DIY it and have claimed they can resolve the alarm issue I'm having for some money because they've "done loads".  They also asked if we'd done the glowplugs and would we like them to do it for us for some money.  If I had some money, I would likely throw it at them to save us the grief.

[Lacquer Peel]

The glow plugs are relatively easy. It's nice to see an old Xantia getting some love, they're great cars.

[vulgalour]

As Mike and I have been working at the Xantia today I've been cleaning bits we remove. Some parts have cleaned up exceptionally well, like the LHM reservoir. Here's a before from shortly after the car was bought.


Here's an after. Cillit Bang and plenty of hot water is superb for this sort of job and since it's quite a visible component in the engine bay it was really important to have it looking its best.


The only part so far to need any attention is the battery tray, it's had a preliminary clean and scrub and once dry we'll tackle the surface rust before dousing it in fresh black paint. New powdercoat would obviously be really nice, maybe that will happen in the future, I'd have it done white. In fact, I'd have a lot of components in the engine bay done white ideally, but that's likely a stupid idea with a dirty diesel.


Today's time spent on the Xantia brings us up to 6.5 hours since starting the job. The time I've spent cleaning components is disregarded, that's not vital to the job and is more an opportunity thing to rid the engine bay of seventeen years of grime. We did finally manage to liberate the gearbox from the car, even though it tried to take out two electrical conduits and three hydraulic pipes on its way.


The clutch friction plate was down to the rivets in places (no picture, I'll get one next time) and while it still had some life it wouldn't be long before it gave up. The inside of the bellhousing was full of black powdery clutch dust and clumps so it's clear that about as much use as possible was got from it. We gave the gearbox a douse in degreaser and jetwashed (being sure to protect bits that shouldn't get water contaminated) again to make reassembly less grim.


The hole for the gearbox does seem to be smaller than the gearbox itself, but I still suspect refitting is going to be easier than removal as it'll be less likely that will run the risk of pulling wires and pipes out. Going to be a horrible task, all the same.



Then I found out the clutch I'd bought was a push type, not a pull type. I was a little bit cross about this mistake on my part, the research I'd done had led me to believe there was only one type of clutch fitted to my age car and engine and that any listed for that use would be correct. I am now trying to get a refund for the clutch I've bought and we're hoping to obtain a correct clutch tomorrow. What a nuisance.

[beko1987]

Good old Citroen! I still have the incorrect rear brake cylinder rh from the 1.4zx, as it was the wrong part from eBay despite ticking all the boxes.

 

Not quite as annoying as your predicament though, although I hope you go for a hoon when its done and feel the difference. After getting the clutch replaced on the puma after chronic, can't go up hills slip it was a different car! Shame the garage fucked the locking wheel nuts though...

[vulgalour]

I'm hoping the car sets off from a stop a bit more willing, that the clutch doesn't get ridiculously heavy in stop-start traffic and that the suspension doesn't go occasionally hard when we've put it all back together.  I'm also hoping that weird squelch on the brake pedal goes away, which I've convinced myself is related to dirty LHM on the grounds that I can't find another cause for it.

[twosmoke300]

Be thankful that its not a pull clutch. Some PSA cars with pull clutches can be a right that to put back in.

Also , while there is less chance of pulling and wires and pipes on refitment , there is more chance of trapping them between gearbox and engine.

 

Be careful out there

[The Moog]

Did you get any quotes to do the clutch?

 

Lhm reservoir looks mint

[vulgalour]

Be thankful that its not a pull clutch. Some PSA cars with pull clutches can be a right that to put back in.

It is a pull clutch, that's the problem.  I thought it was a push.  Great joy*.

[vulgalour]

@Moog:  Ã‚£250 I was quoted.  I'm thinking I should have said OMGYES instead of OMGPOOR.

[ruffgeezer]

The brake squelch will be air in the rear callipers, you don't lose pedal feel like with normal brake systems as the pedal feel is purely synthetic, the brakes are essentially just an on off switch.

 

Make sure the Acc. Sphere and associated pipes are reattached properly as failure to do so can cause them to fracture afterwards.

 

Make your life a little easier by filing a chamfer on the teeth of the friction plate on the side the gearbox shaft goes through, it helps it locate when you are putting it back on.  Oh and don't forget to have a good look at the driveshaft seals, normally we replace them as a matter of course, but it's a pain in the arse to do without the proper installation tools.

[vulgalour]

Driveshaft seals we did check today and they were in such good order that even though we have replacements bought, we aren't fitting them but will keep them as spares.  The driveshafts were also not covered in oil so that would suggest the seals are doing their job.

 

Have added the other items to our check list and the squelch diagnosis sounds right for the way the brakes behave so I'm taking that as being the actual diagnosis.

[vulgalour]

Fifteen hours.

 

This job is absolutely hateful, but it is also the worst job you can do on a Xantia.  The second worst is welding and I've managed that one so it can only get easier from here, right?

 

We did, with the help of our engine brace thingy, get everything aligned.  It was still an arse of a job so it was timely when my brother turned up and said "you just do this jiggle" which made the gearbox align with the engine and make it pretty smooth sailing.  The clutch fork can be a nuisance but it went on first time and the actual changing of the clutch took about ten minutes.

 

It was actually surprising how easy the actual clutch change was considering how long it had taken us to get to this point.  Six and a half hours to get to replacing the clutch and reseating the gearbox felt like it had taken a bit longer than it ought, but not daunting enough to make us worry about buttoning the rest up.

 

A hunt around the engine with all the bits off discovered a few possible oil leaks.  The sump gasket seems to have been weeping for quite a long time.  There's another leak up the back of the engine, one on the rocker cover gasket and another across the top on one of the pipes, but these are less clear so the plan is to get the engine steam cleaned or similar just so we can see where the oil is actually emerging to effectively be able to cure/lessen it.

 

 

 

 

To refit the gearbox the stud had to come out of the mount bracket.  We needed to get it a bit warm to make this happen.

 

 

With everything connected, checked, the gearbox refilled with about 2ltrs of fresh correct oil and another 2ltrs of LHM in the reservoir we were ready to fire things up.  Car started without complaint, no horrible smells or noises, LHM level going down nicely and just as we were about to tip another litre into the reservoir we got a terrific green waterfall out the bottom of the front bumper.  Cat litter to the rescue and engine quickly turned off.

 

The front accumulator had been an absolute nightmare to refit anyway, the various brackets and fixings put up a fight for above an hour which was just stupid.  The smaller pipe wouldn't line up and the larger one was now fountaining LHM out of the union.  We suspect there's a missing seal for the larger - power steering? - pipe which means it can't hold the LHM in once any sort of pressure happens.

 

Utterly disheartened by it.  The MoT is due on Tuesday and I'm not at all confident the car will be sorted in time now.  We're talking to Citromatic on Monday to see what exactly is wrong.  Worse case scenario is that we need a new pipe and a new accumulator and since I know that's the only sphere that hasn't yet been replaced it wouldn't be the worst thing to have to fit a new one.

 

Still, at least my brother remembered to bring up the clear side repeaters he got for me, which really tidy up the wings a lot.

 

Xantia is now in the bad books, it's been hogging space at the unit for 6 days now, which is four days too many.

[stuboy]

does look nice and well done.

[purplebargeken]

I guess it is better to sort these minor wobbles now whilst the car is in the unit, therefore you remain dry and fairly comfortable. Think how much more wonderful things will be once finally sorted. Only way to try and see it I guess. 

[ruffgeezer]

There are little rubber tube seals on the end of the LHM pipes (the smaller ones at least) you have to hook the old one out of the casting and fit a new one to the pipe.

 

We keep those in stock.

 

[vulgalour]

That's what's gone wrong at that then.  We could see the little rubber tube in the other hole and it clicked together without a problem once it decided to actually line up properly but the other seems to have spat the tube out somewhere, never to be seen again.  It's the only thing holding us up now.

 

Looks like the squeaky caliper was down to the dust shield rubbing on the driver's side brake disc but not all the time.  Both front dust shields were more rotten than they looked and both have been removed, mostly because they tore when putting the fixing bolt back in the hole.