Motorcycling - Current Chinese Shite v. Older Japanese Shite

[Eddie Honda]

9 hours ago, strangeangel said:

 

Good question, I don't know either. Was the insurance cheaper sub-100cc?

 

Yes. I'm an old git now and I had a Norwich Union Rider Policy up to 100cc. The next band up was 101 - 225 cc.

I started out 1993 on a used 1983 Honda H100SD (£550 dealer). I couldn't afford a Yamaha RXS100 (£1100) which had the best bang for buck. I ever-so-nearly bought a new Yamaha YB100 for £975, but bailed out having saved 2/3rds of the money. The insurance areas for NU were 1 for city to 4 for rural. (Later it got as granular as 1 to 6!) Third Party Only was all that was possible until the age of 28. Premium in Feb 1993 was £105 (rural address) or £210 for city. Later I moved the policy up to 225cc for a MZ ETZ150. I think they closed them to new business in 1994 and I knocked that policy on the head sometime around 1997 as they cranked up the cost.

[martc]

21 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

Not sure, as seem to recall it went 49cc to 75cc, then 80cc to 150cc, or something like that. The GT380 was a bit of a pain as it was (obvs) out of the -350cc bracket, so took a twatting in the insurance stakes, for no real gain. Someone somewhere will have a list of the old 'groups' hopefully.

From Motorcycle International December 1988. If it's not clear above the classes are 0-100cc, 101-225cc, 226-350cc, 351-450cc, 451-600cc, 601-910cc then no limit. Hence the popularity of 100cc bikes and as mentioned the lack of popularity of 380cc ones!

Mopeds had their own scheme - step throughs where half the price of 'motorbike' style (eg fizzys, SS50's etc) £17.50 vs £36. Because step throughs were not ridden by speed freaks and where twist and goes. But not quite the case - my Puch MS50 was classed as a step through but with 3 gears could keep up with SS50's -  a neat loophole! (but it had no chance against my mates Garelli Tiger Cross).

This system persisted for years with fixed prices vs cc even though it was patently misguided. The car grouping system was in use at the time (but with less groups?) so why it wasn't applied to bikes is a mystery. But the old system made it very clear what you would be paying (except for those who lived in London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Merseyside, Tyne and Wear, Leeds, Bradford or Cleveland who had to ring for a price, don't even bother ringing if you lived in Northern Ireland) also you needed a clean licence for the advertised rates to apply.

[Eddie Honda]

https://www.independent.co.uk/money/norwich-shifts-gear-on-insuring-motorcycles-caroline-merrell-looks-at-a-new-streamlined-model-being-1401824.html

It was getting nuts at that stage (1994) where the cost of insuring a Honda Wet Dream was the same as a Suzuki RGV250.

[LostnotFound]

2 hours ago, martc said:

From Motorcycle International December 1988. If it's not clear above the classes are 0-100cc, 101-225cc, 225-350cc, 351-450cc, 451-600cc, 601-901cc then no limit. Hence the popularity of 100cc bikes and as mentioned the lack of popularity of 380cc ones!

Mopeds had their own scheme - step throughs where half the price of 'motorbike' style (eg fizzys, SS50's etc) £17.50 vs £36. Because step throughs were not ridden by speed freaks and where twist and goes. But not quite the case - my Puch MS50 was classed as a step through but with 3 gears could keep up with SS50's -  a neat loophole! (but it had no chance against my mates Garelli Tiger Cross).

This system persisted for years with fixed prices vs cc even though it was patently misguided. The car grouping system was in use at the time (but with less groups?) so why it wasn't applied to bikes is a mystery. But the old system made it very clear what you would be paying (except for those who lived in London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Merseyside, Tyne and Wear, Leeds, Bradford or Cleveland who had to ring for a price, don't even bother ringing if you lived in Northern Ireland) also you needed a clean licence for the advertised rates to apply.

 

I've just spent too long debating if I'm willing to pay twice as much to insure a R1 rather than an R6 given I'm several decades too late and the bikes didn't exist when the insurance did! The idea of being able to know what a bike would cost you to insure just by knowing it's cc does seem a rather nicer than having to bugger around on comparison sites for hours.

As this is all before my time, how did the prices compare to insuring single bikes?

[gtd2000]

Back in the day, earlier 80's I paid £30 per year for my learner bikes.  Yamaha FS1E and a Suzuki GP100. 

Back then, the smart money was on the best performance with the smallest capacity.

A GP100 would pretty much keep up with most 125's or even outrun them. 

The next stage was the 250cc two stroke. That was an X7 for me.

I don't recall what I paid for the X7 insurance from late '83 onwards but don't think it was twice the price of the GP100?

[Cavcraft]

Can't remember what my insurance cost circa 1982, I think about £80 for a rider policy possibly (nice one @martc for finding and posting the list) which would have been for the 250-350 class as I'd have been whanging round on one of 3 KH250s, most likely.

[gtd2000]

20 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

Can't remember what my insurance cost circa 1982, I think about £80 for a rider policy possibly (nice one @martc for finding and posting the list) which would have been for the 250-350 class as I'd have been whanging round on one of 3 KH250s, most likely.

Mine (KH250) didn't have any but then again, I was 16 when I owned it. ?

[martc]

3 hours ago, LostnotFound said:

As this is all before my time, how did the prices compare to insuring single bikes?

Don't forget the Bennets list above was for third party only.

I used to insure 'single' bikes with CIS - who issued a similar list but included TPFT and Fully Comp (you had to go their office, but they had a pad of them and just tore off the top one) and I seem to remember that it was similar to Bennets but for fully comp (but only for the one bike).

Bennets list did help you to plan, but you still had to ring around the brokers which was a pain as you had to hold the line whilst a bored clerk would leaf through the various tables from their stable of companies and undoubtedly disappoint you at the end. I found CIS to be the most competitive throughout most of the 80's.

[xtriple]

I was an agent for CIS (5/19/25 was my agents code, never forgot it!) and I made a FORTUNE out of bike insurance. I didn't have to insure anything myself just make sure the first cover note in the book was kept clear that day, just in case. This was a trick that was used by all the agents and saved us all a fortune! CIS were for a good while the cheapest insurer around for bikes and not bad for cars. I got 'in' with a couple of local bike shops and we had several lucrative dodges going on  

 

[Jerzy Woking]

CIS were the only company that would insure me, aged 17, on an 8 month old Goldwing. I think that was because I took out a 10 year savings plan (that always gave a great return at maturity) with the agent at the same time. 

 

[andy18s]

I used to buy insurance 1 cover note at a time,usually within an hour of being given a producer......

[strangeangel]

7 hours ago, Jerzy Woking said:

 aged 17, on an 8 month old Goldwing.

 

 

Fuck me, imagine trying to insure that combo nowadays ?

 

[Jerzy Woking]

Things were very different then. Recently had issues insuring my RC8R, despite 44 years of no claims. Madness.

[gtd2000]

On 11/16/2019 at 8:05 PM, MarvinsMom said:

i've been looking at cheap-ish bikes

thing been that i don't want some chinese thing, preferring instead something maybe more left field. japanese and old-ish.

i have seen this listed, and it kinda tickles my fancy.

 

 

 

One of my pals bought one of these brand new in 1982 to replace his dead Honda CB50J that got him through part of 1982...

It was dead after 9 months in his capable hands.... 

[UltraWomble]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Riders-super-cub-110cc/143514731196?hash=item216a2502bc:g:bIQAAOSwmHBeLzG4

 

£600 and no MOT - Chinese bikes seem to be climbing in price

[Cavcraft]

I bet the price of the C50/70/90s has caused that.

[UltraWomble]

6 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

I bet the price of the C50/70/90s has caused that.

Quite probably - there was a Lifan C70 up for sale a while ago - a clone of the Honda C70 but less desirable than a dose of crabs, yet the seller was asking almost as much as a minty C90 Cub.

The real money is in buying old Cat B Hondas and stuffing them in a shed for years to come....

[Cavcraft]

 

1 hour ago, UltraWomble said:

Quite probably - there was a Lifan C70 up for sale a while ago - a clone of the Honda C70 but less desirable than a dose of crabs, yet the seller was asking almost as much as a minty C90 Cub.

The real money is in buying old Cat B Hondas and stuffing them in a shed for years to come....

If only someone had a van. 

[strangeangel]

4 hours ago, UltraWomble said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Riders-super-cub-110cc/143514731196?hash=item216a2502bc:g:bIQAAOSwmHBeLzG4

£600 and no MOT - Chinese bikes seem to be climbing in price

 

Naah, it's just chancers... the POS looks like a Cub so they try it on. And no MOT - how fucking lazy is that? There's nothing to an MOT on a little bike.

 

 

[pilninggas]

^^^ agree.

Scumtree is awash with idiots thinking some 2012ish naff chinese 125cc scrambler-style bike with neither V5 or MOT is worth more than a ton.

They are all rust buckets and field bikes at best.

I know someone who bought a chinese bike new - it has spent half it's time back at the 'dealer'. I suspect it'll be scrapped at 3 years old.

[UltraWomble]

16000 miles????
And Lexmoto themselves think this is good?

Not 160,000 but 16,000 ?

[strangeangel]

34 minutes ago, UltraWomble said:

16000 miles????
And Lexmoto themselves think this is good?

Not 160,000 but 16,000 ?

 

 

There's a bloke on a scooter forum I sometimes visit who is constantly singing the praises of the Chinese manufacturers, especially Lexmoto for some reason. I think I'm going to show him that graphic ?

 

[gtd2000]

There's a lad on one of the Lexmoto pages that said he had done 176,000 on his Lexmoto - I suspect that might have been Km but said it was miles.

There's also another guy who runs a bike shop that reckons his has done well over 70,000 miles.

I have to say, I was actually quite impressed with the Lexmoto ZSB that I had for 3 years or so.

The Rider's Cubs (Chongqing Guangyu Motorcycle Manufacture Co) were generally very well regarded on the C90club page by the folks that bought them. They make a lot more sense than paying £600 for a rusty heap that needs everything reconditioned, well that's my outlook anyway.

 

Quote

 

Licensed models[edit]

Chongqing Guangyu Motorcycle Manufacture Co, of China, known as Kamax, has a line of motorcycles based on the Super Cub Design, licensed from Honda, including the EEC Super Cub. This Super Cub 'remake' was developed solely for the European market in cooperation with Super Motor Company. Super Motor Company which is the sole European distributor of the EEC Super Cub sells three different variations, the Super 25, the Super 50 and the Super 100. From 2009 to 2010, Flyscooters imported a Yinxiang Super Cub variant to the US, under the name Fly Scout. Similarly, China Jialing Industrial Co., Ltd. has ten models based on Honda's Super Cub design, including the JL50Q-2 and JL90-1 which are faithful to the original 1958 styling, as well as several more modern restylings.^[60] Lifan Group exports a version to the UK, the 97 cc (5.9 cu in) LF100, which features telescopic forks, a four speed gearbox and a digital gear indicator.^[61]

 

 

[Cavcraft]

Still maintain LexMotos are shit. The market place is full of them with fucked engines and other bits, quite a few with really low mileage, too.

That said, surely they have a generic engine that fifty other makers use?

[strangeangel]

1 hour ago, gtd2000 said:

The Rider's Cubs (Chongqing Guangyu Motorcycle Manufacture Co) were generally very well regarded on the C90club page by the folks that bought them.

 

 

As you keep repeating this claim, I will keep repeating that one buyer over there had a bike delivered in a crate that had fuel in the tank and had clearly suffered a wiring fire prior to delivery. And the thing about doing up an old Cub (and by that I don't mean turning it into a beardy wanker chopper) you'll have something worth keeping, or at the very least a bike you can sell on for a decent amount of coin. Chinese stuff is just there to be run into the ground, usually by the date of its first MOT.

 

EDIT: in order to place my massive cynicism regarding Chinese bikes in some sort of context, here's a brief summary of my experiences of them, copied from another thread where they were being discussed:

 

Quote

 

Here's a selection of the wretched piles of crap I've been exposed to one way or another over the last few years:

• Baotian BT-49 (neighbour's son) - Bought in a crate off eBay for £425 brand new. Big end failure at 1000 miles. Seller not interested. Scrapped.
• Jialing JL-250 (mine) -  Belt snapped and destroyed rear clutch assy. Had previously had the output shaft bearing replaced at 2500km! Scrapped for its bodywork.
• Jonway YY250 (mine) - HGF at 8000km. Took head off to replace it and discovered camshaft FUBAR. Fitted a Honda one with 50000 miles on it that looked better. Ran for a few weeks until the engine started cutting out for unspecfied reasons. Sold it to a bloke in Liverpool for spears, the next time I saw it, it was on eBay in a scrappers.
• Lifan 110cc engine fitted to my old Honda C50. This actually worked! Ran for 10000 miles before being sold as a going concern.
• Jialing JL-250 (mate's) - stator failed. So did two of the three replacements... reg/rec failed and then HGF, all within 1000 miles. Currently at the back of my mate's garage, where it's been for five years.
• Jianshe 125 (CG copy bought by a mate for commuting) - stuck in gear because cheese metal selector fork bent. New part arrived, also made out of cheese... fitted and, surprise surprise, failed again a few months later. He bought a car.
• Shineray 50cc crosser-type thing (mate's lad) - he had this from new: the exhaust rusted through in less than 12 months, it pissed out oil of every orifice and the kickstart shaft snapped. Running fault caused by split inlet rubber, later there was a mahoosive fuel leak due to a perished line. He bump started it for about 6 months after the electric start died, then we put in a no-brand 2nd hand 110 motor which ran for a few months until lack of compression made it impossible to start. Scrapped on his 17th birthday when his old man bought him a 2nd hand YBR125.

 

 

[strangeangel]

25 minutes ago, Cavcraft said:

Still maintain LexMotos are shit. The market place is full of them with fucked engines and other bits, quite a few with really low mileage, too.

That said, surely they have a generic engine that fifty other makers use?

 

Lexmoto aren't a manufacturer as such - the name is just the badge on the tank. They buy in what are supposedly the better products of the various Chinese factories (I know, you wouldn't want to see the stuff they think is shit, would you?) so their model range is all sorts of stuff. They only seem to use a few engine designs for the 50/125 models, all copied from Japanese designs and made of the finest Wensleydale.

 

I keep getting told Chinese bikes are getting better, but I never see any evidence of it and most of the people who spend their time telling me this don't ride one...

 

[Cavcraft]

Ahh, fair enough then. I had noticed years back it seemed you could buy a number of Chinese mopeds and (I assume) call them whatever name you wanted and have stickers made to suit. The Baotian (for example) used that shitty QT50 engine code as found in the Madness 50 and shit loads of shit other things, iirc. 

It was also funny how although they might have some vaguely Western name, the actual log book would say they're a Quimtrim Xylophone Ping Pong.

[New POD]

On 11/18/2019 at 12:47 PM, martc said:

From Motorcycle International December 1988. If it's not clear above the classes are 0-100cc, 101-225cc, 226-350cc, 351-450cc, 451-600cc, 601-910cc then no limit. Hence the popularity of 100cc bikes and as mentioned the lack of popularity of 380cc ones!

Mopeds had their own scheme - step throughs where half the price of 'motorbike' style (eg fizzys, SS50's etc) £17.50 vs £36. Because step throughs were not ridden by speed freaks and where twist and goes. But not quite the case - my Puch MS50 was classed as a step through but with 3 gears could keep up with SS50's -  a neat loophole! (but it had no chance against my mates Garelli Tiger Cross).

This system persisted for years with fixed prices vs cc even though it was patently misguided. The car grouping system was in use at the time (but with less groups?) so why it wasn't applied to bikes is a mystery. But the old system made it very clear what you would be paying (except for those who lived in London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Merseyside, Tyne and Wear, Leeds, Bradford or Cleveland who had to ring for a price, don't even bother ringing if you lived in Northern Ireland) also you needed a clean licence for the advertised rates to apply.

If you had to rebore an RD350LC because of seizure and found that you needed 3mm oversize pistons because someone had been there before, and that took it to more than 350, how would you insure it.  As a 347 cc or 375 cc? 

 

[martc]

40 minutes ago, New POD said:

If you had to rebore an RD350LC because of seizure and found that you needed 3mm oversize pistons because someone had been there before, and that took it to more than 350, how would you insure it.  As a 347 cc or 375 cc? 

 

Interesting question and probably quite a common dilemma when two strokes ruled the world. On the one hand you are, I am assuming, using legitimate parts from the manufacturer to do a legitimate repair, on the other, as you say, the cubic capacity has increased into the next bracket.

I think there would be two camps - people who didn't realise that the cc had increased and people who knew full well. I suspect that very few declared it. Even back in the 80's insurance policies talked about unmodified bikes - so does a legitimate repair using genuine parts make it modified? Buying a carlosfandango big bore cylinder head certainly would.

If you had a prang and everything looked original from the outside I don't think anything would be said, but if you had all the usual mods - spanny pipes etc and you hadn't told them then you would be in trouble.

I could now go into a discussion about the overall lawlessness of elsie pilots, but I won't.

 

[Stinkwheel]

5 minutes ago, martc said:

I could now go into a discussion about the overall lawlessness of elsie pilots, but I won't.

Oh go on, why not....

Those of us of a certain age (who might have been elsie and powervalve pilots) certainly started early on that path. Even my fs1e was actually 65cc. And my 125LC was 170cc.

Back then, if you could do it, you did it.