Motorcycling - Current Chinese Shite v. Older Japanese Shite

[gtd2000]

We were out on the tiddlers yesterday.

The Nanfang engine uses a rotary gearbox. 1-2-3-4-1...... that's a clue.

Well I was following and bimbling along at roughly 40mph. 

Suddenly, I heard what sounded like an extremely loud and prolonged missed gear... ? The engine revved its fucking tits off!

Then the GF pulled over and said, "it's not pulling, just dying on me..."

It would start OK but totally gutless. No pulling power at all. 

Then told the GF that she'd probably fucked the bike going into first gear from 4th.

She wasn't impressed. It all became my fault. Of course, couldn't be her fault could it? ?

Had a quick look at the bike and took some of the covers off the head. There was a hell of a play in the inlet rocker. I thought it was bent.. didn't want to think about the state of the tappets.

We decided to leave the bike at the side of the road and then recover it in my car once we got the gf home.

Picked the bike up in the evening (glad to see it was still there!) and took it home.

We decided to have a look at the engine. I'll save a lot of typing but all that was required, was replacing the inlet tappet!!

I took one out of the spare 50 head.

Was really expecting it to be toast!

That bigger engine will just have to wait! ?

 

 

[martc]

14 hours ago, gtd2000 said:

We were out on the tiddlers yesterday.

The Nanfang engine uses a rotary gearbox. 1-2-3-4-1...... that's a clue.

Bridgestone (yes the tyre company*) made some real two stroke gems in the 60's. They 'benefitted' from a rotary gearbox which led to some interesting moments on what were very briskly accelerating bikes for the time. Why anyone should think the rotary box is a good idea is beyond me, what are the advantages vs the obvious disadvantage?

* apparently Bridgestone were leant on by the larger Japanese makers to stop making their (in many cases superior) bikes otherwise they would stop buying tyres from them. The bean counters at Bridgestone did the maths and the bike production stopped.

[gtd2000]

I've never actually seen a Bridgestone motorcycle in the flesh but I've seen a couple advertised.

When I first started off on two wheels back in the early '80's, I considered Japanese tyres to be pretty suspect, similar to perceptions of Chinese tyres today. 

It didn't take long for that to change!

[xtriple]

Too true! If a bike had Jap crap tyres on, bin them instantly and fit decent (AVON or Dunlop). My attitude changed when I bought a CBX from DC Cooke in Doncaster and it of course came with Bridgestone tyres. In an effort to show how crap they were I decided to burn them out (we were sad wankers and did it all the time - usually at traffic lights and then let the brakes off and go like fuck!) and I couldn't spin the sod, it just kept pushing the locked front. No amount of revs and being brutal with the clutch would make the sod spin on the same dry tarmac as Avons would spin their guts out.

I did get it to spin by putting the front wheel against a wall and dumping the clutch.

May I just say that I truly was a fucking idiot back then (not got a lot better in the intervening years to be honest!) May I also add that my attitude to Bridgestone tyres changed as well and I used to BUY the tyres my mates derided as 'SHIT!' 'cos I knew better  

Oh and I have ridden a Bridgestone 350 GTR and it was already an old bike but it was better than an RD 350 Yam (or a YDS7 - YR5E) but the brakes were shocking!

[gtd2000]

There's a Honda Helix copy (2004 Jialing 250) advertised on Facebook if anybody is off their medication and has two grand burning a hole in their pockets...?

[twosmoke300]

£2000 for a 2004 Chinese bike? Someone lost a decimal point somewhere?

[strangeangel]

TWO GRAND for a JL-250?

 

 

The heap of shit wouldn't have cost that when it was new. ?

 

 

 

[strangeangel]

Fair do's - it's managed 20000km... most of these were dead before they'd reached half that.

 

 

Sadly he's made the classic mistake of conflating rarity with desirability. No matter how much turd-polishing he does, it's still a £200 Chinese shitter with no MOT. There's actually a really tidy-looking Helix on the same page of ads with MOT for £950, which makes this look even more of a joke.

 

[gtd2000]

17 minutes ago, strangeangel said:

Fair do's - it's managed 20000km... most of these were dead before they'd reached half that.

 

 

Sadly he's made the classic mistake of conflating rarity with desirability. No matter how much turd-polishing he does, it's still a £200 Chinese shitter with no MOT. There's actually a really tidy-looking Helix on the same page of ads with MOT for £950, which makes this look even more of a joke.

 

Would be worth considering at £200 but £2K is just being silly.

[strangeangel]

1 minute ago, gtd2000 said:

Would be worth considering at £200 but £2K is just being silly.

 

I'd snatch his hand off at £200 - the screen, seat, panels, lights, mirrors and cast wheels are perfect for brightening up a battle-scarred old Helix (ask me how I know!). Anything with moving parts goes straight in the skip, though.

[gtd2000]

On 11/9/2019 at 6:12 PM, strangeangel said:

TWO GRAND for a JL-250?

 

 

The heap of shit wouldn't have cost that when it was new. ?

 

 

 

I saw something similar on Facebook this week with a 2011 Huoniao HN125-8 advertised at £850.

You could buy them new for £700 a few years ago...

[gtd2000]

Here's a premium priced example... ?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/540820163333879/

[Cavcraft]

1 hour ago, gtd2000 said:

Here's a premium priced example... ?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/540820163333879/

 

Ok, that's a 2018, but given most of them that were showed a picture of rain once have rusted to bollocks. That's a lot of money.

[gtd2000]

2 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

 

Ok, that's a 2018, but given most of them that were showed a picture of rain once have rusted to bollocks. That's a lot of money.

The used bike market at this point in time is crazy.

I still don't see why 125's are now priced so highly, it's not like there's any shortage of new bikes to buy or used ones on the market?

[strangeangel]

4 hours ago, gtd2000 said:

I still don't see why 125's are now priced so highly, it's not like there's any shortage of new bikes to buy or used ones on the market?

 

 

125 premium innit. Many are the people either too shiftless or incompetent to actually pass the motorcycle test, so they join the Brotherhood of the Perpetual CBT. Unbelievably, there are some people out there who can't even complete the CBT successfully, but that's another story...

 

It's madness - so many times I've seen viable 600s change hands for less than an abused 125. Not only this, but if you're over 12 and don't live in tha hood, insuring the 600 could also be cheaper, and yet bike/scooter forums are still full of posts that ask HOW CAN I MEK PED FASTER THX IN ADVANSE M9.

 

 

[Jerzy Woking]

That Jailing pricing is a joke. "Well looked after......stored for 5 years" means to me it was broken. And bet your life the seller hasn't been the owner for long. Ad contains classic "whiteroom" bullshit too.

 

 

[Cavcraft]

/\

Totes agree. Insurance more expensive on 'peds/small bikes because they're easier to steal, plus theft is a far more common occurrence. 

[strangeangel]

3 minutes ago, Jerzy Woking said:

That Jailing pricing is a joke. "Well looked after......stored for 5 years" means to me it was broken. And bet your life the seller hasn't been the owner for long. Ad contains classic "whiteroom" bullshit too.

 

 

The absolute pudding of a seller posted another version of that ad later, dropping the price to two grand (wow). In it he says the Jialing "got better reviews than the Honda Helix" ??. The *one* review in question was written by a bloke called Paul Blezzard, who composed glowing write ups for every pile of Chinese dogshite that was ever loaned to the reliably execrable Twist'n'Go magazine.

 

[strangeangel]

7 hours ago, Cavcraft said:

 

Ok, that's a 2018, but given most of them that were showed a picture of rain once have rusted to bollocks. That's a lot of money.

 

Indeed, if it's cheap enough any Chinese Honda-based copy is worth a look, if a basic hack is what you require. Naturally this is more to do with the superiority of the original design that the interesting* Chinese metallurgy which afflicts their construction. All that being said, if the asking is more than £100 then the seller can get in the sea.

 

[Jerzy Woking]

Paul Blezzard is a freelance motorcycle "journalist" so will give positive (if not glowing) reviews to bikes he has been either been paid to review, or has the threat of being given no more bikes to review. A position most freelancers are under now I would think.

Chinese bikes arent all bad-just the shite ones outnumber the good ones by a long way.

[gtd2000]

To be fair I've not found the Chinese bikes I've bought to be that bad really.

They've all been totally reliable and in the case of the Lexmoto ZSB the build quality was actually pretty decent. 

I've thought about picking up a CG125 clone for fun but they seem to have become very thin on the ground now.

Really don't need it as such but a Honley Classic would be a desirable option.

Here's one that's about a grand over priced.

https://www.twowheel.co.uk/honley-mtr-classic-125cc-orange.html

[Jerzy Woking]

The Honleys are a great example of a good Chinese bike, one that was built to a standard rather than down to a price , and so their price is higher than other brands. The dealership that involved themselves in the design and specification of the bike is Earnshaws, and is named Honley after the village near to where Earnshaws owner lives.

I have seen three Honleys that belong to a CBT training centre, and each have covered 50,000 miles. The training school look after them well, as they were still in a condition that belied the mileage (apart from a few dents in the petrol tanks). Regular cleaning and regular servicing is what they get, and just what 90% of owners don't do.

[gtd2000]

9 hours ago, Jerzy Woking said:

The Honleys are a great example of a good Chinese bike, one that was built to a standard rather than down to a price , and so their price is higher than other brands. The dealership that involved themselves in the design and specification of the bike is Earnshaws, and is named Honley after the village near to where Earnshaws owner lives.

I have seen three Honleys that belong to a CBT training centre, and each have covered 50,000 miles. The training school look after them well, as they were still in a condition that belied the mileage (apart from a few dents in the petrol tanks). Regular cleaning and regular servicing is what they get, and just what 90% of owners don't do.

I'd say it was still a basic £400 Chinese CG125 clone that's had a few bits and bobs "upgraded" to make it look more presentable.

A quick google search for the Honley seems to mainly result in the new (pre registered 67 plate) bike sold by the dealer, possibly not a popular model?

 

[strangeangel]

19 hours ago, Jerzy Woking said:

Paul Blezzard is a freelance motorcycle "journalist" so will give positive (if not glowing) reviews to bikes he has been either been paid to review, or has the threat of being given no more bikes to review. A position most freelancers are under now I would think.

 

 

Yesh, I get that, which is why neither he or T'n'G itself could be relied upon for any sort of objectivity. The last issue of that rag I read (now defunct, I believe?) had a review of the Baotian BT50, one of the most monolithic piles of shit ever wrought on 'ped seeking youngsters ever in the history of motorcycling. One of my ex-neighbour's kids bought one for £400 off eBay in a crate and it did its big ends in less that 1000 miles. Looking at the jagged welds, flaking frame paint and cracking rubber parts, my initial reaction was to tell him to scrap it, but I felt sorry for him - what an introduction to riding this was! At the time we couldn't find any parts for it, so to the back of the shed it went... Twist'n'Go? They loved it ?

 

No, what made me laugh was when Blezzard alleged in his review of the Jialing that it might be even better made than the Honda it was copied from. He was supposed to be a FF enthusiast, but I lost all interest in anything he wrote after that. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the UMG was the only proper way to do motorcycle journalism - ask the people who own and live with the bikes to review them, not some journo* who's had the loan of one for an afternoon. And because they didn't take trade advertising the editor didn't have to give a toss about whose feelings he might hurt by telling the truth.

 

17 hours ago, Jerzy Woking said:

I have seen three Honleys that belong to a CBT training centre, and each have covered 50,000 miles. The training school look after them well, as they were still in a condition that belied the mileage (apart from a few dents in the petrol tanks). Regular cleaning and regular servicing is what they get, and just what 90% of owners don't do.

 

As GTD says, these are just another CG clone, IMO the important bit is in bold - totally agree. The genius of the CG motor is in its low tech/low power design. Even when the Chinese copied it in monkey metal it can still keep going, as long as you change the oil every once in a blue moon. The worst problems with the ones I've seen are rust due to the shit chrome/badly applied paint, crappily made cycle parts, perished rubber parts (vacuum hoses/carb diaphragms/inlet manifolds etc.) which cause all sorts of exciting running problems, wooden tyres and bearings made of Wensleydale. Oh, and gearbox problems cause by the incompetents using mild steel selector forks. Usable, but unless free/nearly free then you will inevitably find something Japanese or European that is a better proposition.

 

 

[Jerzy Woking]

6 hours ago, strangeangel said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the UMG was the only proper way to do motorcycle journalism - ask the people who own and live with the bikes to review them, not some journo* who's had the loan of one for an afternoon.

I agree with the owner thing to a certain extent, but find, in particular with cars, that owners don't like critising a car they have spent a vast amount of money on, as it looks like they have failed.

Best reviews used to be from reps, spending all day in a car they never paid for (except for the taxable figure on their P11D) they could be critical over without having to defend it because of their financial outlay.

As for Blezzard, I rode a Quasar that he was forever promoting. My memory of it isnt all that, but I can remember thinking it needed more power, and that the riding position was odd. 40 years later, Tmax/Burgman/maxi scooters  have similar ergonomics to the Quasar but no longer feel weird. Perhaps Mr Newell was onto something and could see the future.

[strangeangel]

On 11/15/2019 at 1:18 AM, Jerzy Woking said:

As for Blezzard, I rode a Quasar that he was forever promoting. My memory of it isnt all that, but I can remember thinking it needed more power, and that the riding position was odd. 40 years later, Tmax/Burgman/maxi scooters  have similar ergonomics to the Quasar but no longer feel weird. Perhaps Mr Newell was onto something and could see the future.

 

 

A Quasar! Now there's a thing. Never even seen one in the flesh, never mind had a go on one. Those who know my taste* in motorcycles will not be surprised to know that I definitely would ?

 

 

 

[Jerzy Woking]

I also rode one of Tony Foales Quantums. My brother worked at a bike dealers that had one in for display more than for sale. We took it out for a quick blast when his bosses were off for the day, because "it needed a run".

Unlike the Quasar, I cannot think of anything I have ridden before or since that comes close to the feel of the Quantum. It was unique. Think the one I rode was a GSX1100 , with a normal front wheel, not the three spoke one in this photo.

[Zelandeth]

24 minutes ago, Jerzy Woking said:

I also rode one of Tony Foales Quantums. My brother worked at a bike dealers that had one in for display more than for sale. We took it out for a quick blast when his bosses were off for the day, because "it needed a run".

Unlike the Quasar, I cannot think of anything I have ridden before or since that comes close to the feel of the Quantum. It was unique. Think the one I rode was a GSX1100 , with a normal front wheel, not the three spoke one in this photo.

Unique...in a good way?

Interesting looking thing, I'll give it that.

[Jerzy Woking]

^^ I seem to remember in a good way. I only rode it for two or three miles down back lanes,  but it felt "normal". It was nearly 40 years ago, and back then it was just another bike to me.

I wonder how much these are worth now (and the Quasars)? I cant recall how much it was up for sale for at the shop my brother worked at, but it was for a lot more than I could afford, so it was academic at the time. 

Also I would like to know how many of either still remain. Probably all in museums now.

[Cavcraft]

That looks ace, almost like a toned up Katana.